A woman's right to choose?

[*Eve*]

Since this seems to be such a hot topic and the deciding factor in who people choose as their candidates, where do you stand and why?
I am amazed that women would vote for anyone who would deny them that right even for cases of incest or medical reasons. I am by no means endorsing abortion. For myself, that is something that I could not even begin to comtemplate based on my beliefs and the way I was brought up, but who am I to say what someone else can do with their bodies? In some peoples' opionions it's murder and they could possibly be right, however, abortions will happen whether it's made the law of the land or not. There will always be those "back alley" surgeons that would be willing to preform such an operation, but how safe are they? I would rather it be a legal procedure where a woman can go to a clinic with a certified doctor and nurse instead of her hemorraging on a cheap hotel bed to die. We have so may pro-life activists who don't want women to abort their unwanted children but yet they offer no solution as to what to do with them. Not every child put up for adoption gets adopted and a lot of children raised in the system will be in the system for the rest of their lives and then we'll have the same people whinning in a few years about too many people on welfare, the overcrowded prisons, the poverty rate rising etc.
That's just my humble opinion, feedback is welcome.

 

[Ambrosious]

Give a woman the right to choose? Never! In fact, they shouldn't be allowed to vote, go to school, or even be taught any words over one syllable. It is good to have a submissive creature that depends on you for her happiness. Keep 'em naked, barefoot, uneducated, and pregnant and they'll never leave you. That's my plan. Now, who want to go first.

<sorry, my wife started her period today so I'm a little sore right now> Refer to "pins and needles" thread. She didn't take! Damn.

 

[Expertise]

I am strongly against abortion in most cases but for the right to choose.

Maybe I should move this to the oxymoron thread.

 

[Juliangel]

<sorry, my wife started her period today so I'm a little sore right now> Refer to "pins and needles" thread. She didn't take! Damn.

Sweetie I am so sorry for both of you, had my fingers cross for y'all. Good luck in the coming month, just keep trying.

 

[Ezzie]

This is something I've had to think about

A lot of people around here know that I'm pregnant. I'm currently 12 weeks along in it and I'll be raising this child alone. The father comes and goes as he pleases and doesn't act overly interested in the baby or me for that matter. Now, I'm 25, already have a 4 year old daughter and aborting this unborn child was something I considered for weeks because I have a hard time financially and emotionally raising the one I already have. So, after weeks of going over the pros and cons of aborting, I decided to keep the baby. I feel that abortion is fine for other women but it's just not something I can do. I would never ask someone to deny a woman her right to choose. But I don't think abortion should be used as a form of "Birth control" they have other excellent methods for that. Methods that are cheaper, safer and don't have the same mental effects of abortion. But, to each their own, I don't want people in my bedroom and I don't want to be in someone else's.

 

[Closet Desire]

Why?

Why should a woman give up ownership of her body to society when she becomes pregnant?

When my wife was writing her first book she came across a psychologist who was researching how pregnant women are treated by the public (in England). She went into a pub with a pillow to provide the "lump" in her belly, went to the bar and ordered a lager. The landlord didn't want to serve her, but did reluctantly give her a half pint. The psychologist then pulled out a cigarette and asked the woman beside her (who was smoking) for a light. The woman lit into her.

Then, of course, there are the strangers who walk up to a woman and put their hands on her belly to "feel" the baby without asking permission.

A South Carolina hospital is in the Supreme Court this week trying to justify its policy of taking blood samples of pregnant women who fit a certain profile and, if drugs are detected, turning the information over to police. The women then have a choice of going to jail or enrolling in a drug rehab programme. If you did that to men there would be hell to pay.

So...who "owns" a woman when she becomes pregnant and becomes a mother?

 

[Juliangel]

All I can say is it is a decision each woman must make for herself, and should always have the right to make.

When I was 22 my honey an I found out we were expecting again. Yes we were thrilled but we also did not have health insurance, money was going to be tight but that was ok.

At around 11 weeks I started passing small clots of blood and cramping badly. We called the doctor and he saw me right away the cramping and clots were getting worse.

I had not fully miscarried but I was on my way to one. He gave me two options, one he could do the procedure then in his office or two I could go home and let nature take its course. It was midafternoon and we knew if I went home that I would probably end up in the emergeny room in the middle of the night.

With the thought of the cost of the trip to the ER and what it would put our 1 year old through rushing there in the middle of the night we opted to have it done in his office.

I can say for me it was the most gut-wrenching feeling in the world, that left me feeling empty inside for over a year, until I conceived my second son.

I can still hear the machine in my nightmares sometimes but I would never deny another woman the right to make the choice for herself, and I am glad I had a choice other than ending up in the ER in the middle of the night.

(sorry was only 22 not 23 changed my age above, bad day for counting in my head)

[Edited by Juliangel on 11-02-2000 at 12:06 PM]

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[Misery]

Barring cases of incest, rape, or the mother's life would otherwise be in danger.

I support the woman's right to choose. She chose to spread her legs. No one put a gun to her head and made her get pregnant.

I support the woman's right to choose. She fucked, she fucked up, she got pregnant. She can either choose to be accountable for her actions or choose to shirk her responsibility.

I support the woman's right to choose. If she chooses to remain unaccountable for her actions, then she should pay for it herself out of her own pocket.

Abortion isn't birth control.

Keep abortion legal, sure. Women should always have the choice to shift the blame for their actions to another party, it is just tissue and not a living being isn't it? Just don't pay for it. The government should not pay for abortions, they are extraneous operations with no reedeming medical value. Exceptions being cases of rape, incest, or when the mother's life is otherwise in danger.

I have no sympathy for the prochoice indivuals, they support behavior that is unacceptable in any other place in life. I do not know understand how they can claim responsibility, accountability, and integrity when they support a stance that is the complete opposite of it.

Oh, before you preach unwanted babies, open the classified section of your local newspaper and count the number of ads placed by people begging to give some baby a loving home.

 

[Juliangel]

I support the woman's right to choose. She fucked, she fucked up, she got pregnant. She can either choose to be accountable for her actions or choose to shirk her responsibility.

I have to say that I disagree with you here. There are plenty of women out there that get pregnant while practicing safe sex so they do not conceive. I conceived 3 times while on birth control pills.

Yes I took them everyday.
Yes at the same time everyday.
No I did not take antibiotics that counter effect them.
No it was not the same brand or dose each time.

I seem to be a fertile person and it can happen.

 

[catlover]

my 2 cents

cant resist throwing in my thoughts.

First of all I am a right wing extremist and have been voting that way since before Rush Limbaugh was born (He is now 49 by the way)

I draw the line on this issue however, and agree with EVERY one of you ladies until I read the post by Misery. It is none of my business, nor in my opinion the gov't's business, what a woman and those in whom she chooses to confide and from whom they choose to accept counsel, decide on this issue

My only personal experience was that after about 5 years my 42 yr old daughter told me that while planning to get a divorce, was put into a position of becoming pregnant, and already knowing the man to whom she was married, felt she had no choice. She regretted it later, but sometimes we make choices where that happens.

It is ridiculous to put women back into the alley for something that for so many reasons is the right thing to do -Personally I would NEVER put a baby up for adoption, with all the politically correct movement toward a child's right to know their heritage etc, there is now NO Possibility of privacy

[Edited by catlover on 11-02-2000 at 10:04 AM]

 

[Juliangel]

I support the woman's right to choose. She fucked, she fucked up, she got pregnant. She can either choose to be accountable for her actions or choose to shirk her responsibility.

Ok I really do not mean to start anything but if this does so be it, it just really pisses me off!

Just because a woman is pregnant doesn't mean she FUCKED UP!

Forget about the women that get pregnant while on the pill like I did let's think about the ones that get pregnent in other ways:
Tubes untie
Vasectomies reverse
condoms break
diaphrams develope leaks
IUD's come out
the sponge can be placed wrong (not even sure if these are still on the market)
your can count your days wrong (for the Catholics)
.....and I am sure there are plenty of other methods of birth control that fail when least wanted to.

Just because it happens doesn't mean she did not try and prevent it and it doesn't mean she FUCKED UP!


......climbing down off my soapbox now.

[Edited by Juliangel on 11-02-2000 at 10:11 AM]

 

[Ezzie]

I have to agree with Juliangel

I too conceived both my children (4 year old and unborn) while practicing "Safe sex" I know that the only true safe sex is to not have sex at all. But c'mon. We're all adults here and most of us have had sex and some of us have had children due to thinking we're playing safely. Just because I'm not in love with the baby's father nor do I believe he'll play an active roll in this child's life, it does not mean I "fucked up" Yes, I did as it was put earlier "Spread my legs" but I did it willingly, meaning I knew there was risk. I will never look down on this pregnancy and when this child asks about his father or why his father isn't around and I explain the situation to him or her, I will NEVER tell this child he or she was conceieved because "Mommy spread her legs and fucked up" I will love this child as much as life itself no matter how he or she came to be.

I get very defensive when it comes to the subject of abortion because people take this side or take that side without ever knowing what a woman has been through and that resulted in a pregnancy. Hell, here in my city a woman can't even go into Planned Parenthood for a pregnancy test or birth control methods without being harassed by anti abortion protestors. They don't even care why you're there, they just assume because you're younger looking and either with a man or a female friend that you're there for an abortion only. They get in your face and talk about how you're killing life and how Jesus won't forgive you. Is that really needed to get a couple of condoms and some information? Like I said before though, I'm pro choice for anyone except myself and I think it should be left for the woman and her doctor to decide upon. It's simply not my business.

 

[*Eve*]

Barring cases of incest, rape, or the mother's life would otherwise be in danger.
Oh, before you preach unwanted babies, open the classified section of your local newspaper and count the number of ads placed by people begging to give some baby a loving home.

Hmmm....I looked in mine, what paper are you reading? The ratio of unwanted babies being born to the people who actually want to adopt is staggering. You obviously don't pay attention to all the ads about the children who want to get adopted most of which whom will never have that opportunity. Got any other bright ideas?

Anyway, another huge problem is that this falls solely on the woman's shoulders but there are so many dead beat dads that shirk their responsibilty, how about we stop blaming the woman for 100% of the blame and let's hold the men responsible as well. It does take two to make a baby it's not just a matter of a woman just "opening her legs"

 

[Misery]

Perhaps condoms if birth control wasn't working?

Did you abort your children? Or did you take responsibility for your own actions? Do you think an innocent child should pay the price because you got a little horny and had sex, sex that was decreasingly safer as time passed on? Birth control pills obviously didn't work for you, what about a tubal ligation or a vasectomy?

There is only one method of 100% safe sex barring abstinence, which is realistically not an option. That is sterility. If you do not want children, then get it snipped.

Why is so hard to get a tubal ligation but so easy to get an abortion?

After the second pregnancy on the birth control pill, it was irresponsible to think the pill might work the third time. It was irresponsible of your doctors to tell it was a sure fire method.

You judge me because I believe unborn children have more of a right to live than women lay aside responsibility and abort their little mistake because of the inconvenience of taking responsibility for her own actions.

I judge you because you believe that women have a right to abort a fetus because bearing the child to term messes up her life.

We will forever disagree.

Keep the abortion clinics open. Let doctors perform abortions. If a woman wants to kill her baby because it's more convenient that carrying it to term and adopting it out, of I forgot, privacy issues are more important than a living creature, then so be it, let her do it. I don't want to pay for it. My tax dollars have no business funding abortions or the clinics that only do abortions. I don't care if you did spread your legs, get knocked up accidently cause the condom broke, then go get rid of the fetus cause it's in the way. I'd rather spend the money on homeless shelters and social services. These people need the financial help. Abortions clinics do not.

 

[Ezzie]

Eve, I'd love to lay some of the responsibility for this baby on daddy's chest for awhile. He just doesn't come around often enough for me to do that. I'm sure it's like that for a lot of women too. In my case the best thing I can do is rely on family and friends and let the court system deal with him. I don't want his money, believe me, but I think it will aid him in "Growing up", yup, I'm gonna make him pay. This way maybe he'll learn some responsibility too. I've never blamed him for this because there isn't really any blame in my case. We (Daddy and I) have made my bed and now we'll lie in it.

I praise the men who have fathered children and had it in them to accept some of the responsibilty for the children in loveless relationships with the mother.

Nice post, Eve. It's really getting me to think clearer about things in my own life. Thank you.

 

[Juliangel]

Perhaps condoms if birth control wasn't working?

Did you abort your children? Or did you take responsibility for your own actions? Why is so hard to get a tubal ligation but so easy to get an abortion?

I judge you because you believe that women have a right to abort a fetus because bearing the child to term messes up her life.

FIRST what I did is NONE of your business, it is my life.

SECOND it is not as easy to get a tubal as you think. I am turning 31 this month with 3 children and have an IUD because my doctors say I am too young and they will not tie my tubes. Would love to change doctors but we have an HMO and I have no choice in that, ironic isn't it.

THIRD IT is her right until the courts change the laws!

[Edited by Juliangel on 11-02-2000 at 11:56 AM]

 

[*Eve*]

Misery, no one hear is judging you and your opinion is your opinion and I respect that you're sticking to your guns, but respect our views too. You're ranting about how irresponsible women are from spreading their legs but you're not offering any solutions.

 

[Cheri]

Misery obviously you are a male and should shut up about things you have no knowledge of. Maybe there's a Pro Life Rally somewhere, why don't you go find out.

 

[Behr_Naked]

Okay this is the way I look at it. I think women are in a place in their life where yes we have the right to decide what to do with our bodies.

Having an abortion is something that everyone that picks that will have to live with.

I think that the time we are in they will never outlaw abortion they shouldn't even try it.

There are women that use it as a form of birth control and no one can tell me otherwise. I know people who have had like 3 or 4 are you telling me that was the only choice? No they chose to have sex without protection, it's not the babies fault.

It's actually really hard to say that there is just one side to it, because if you don't look at the whole picture then your extremly wrong, you can't just say that having an abortion is the only way, because people should make the smart choice to take some sort of precaution so thier not in that spot.

The one thing with abortion that I don't agree with and never will is this partial birth abortion. That is murder clear and simple.

For those that don't know a partial birth abortion is it's where a doctor dilates a woman who is at least 8 months and then reaches in and turns the baby so that the feet come out first, that's what makes it legit.

Then they pull the baby out so the head is still inside and then they snip the spinal cord at the base of the head, killing the baby, then they take a long injection needle and suck that babies brains out so that they can sell it for testing. And then they pull the head out of the mothers womb. And throw it away.

There is no way anyone can tell me that is necssary. And the Democrats are all for that, saying it's still a womans right. I mean what's the next step deliviring a baby and if it's not the right colored eyes, hair, sex. Then they can decide to kill it then. We have to stop somewhere.

So that's just my two cents on the whole abortion issue.

 

[Misery]

Interesting. I disagree with the irresponsible feminist rhetoric and instantly I'm a male with no brain? In order to be female I have to be agree with you or I'm not a woman? I use icky words that you do not like, such as accountability, responsibility and integrity and all of the sudden I can't possibly be female? I thought we all had a choice, but only if the choices we make agree with you. Otherwise, we must obviously be a man. A woman should have a choice, a woman should have a voice, but who is the voice of her unborn baby? What about the choices they'll never make?

As for going to a pro-life convention, Prolifer rhetoric is just as hypocritical as you are. I'd just as soon not bother. I have my opinion, I have a right to it and I have a right to express it. You may not like it, but you have to live with it, just like I have to live with yours.

No, Juliangel, its none of my business. I have the feeling that you are a responsible person and took responsibility for what has happened to you. I don't think women are irresponsible for having sex, I think they're irresponsible for having medically unnecessary abortions.

Then I read a post by Ambrosious. Life isn't fair, it never has been never will be.

Perhaps you should try here then: http://www.adopting.org/private.html

Preventing the problem from beginning in the first place would be the best. Instead of throwing money at abortion clinics, throw money at day care facilities for mothers who can't afford to pay for quality day care. If they'd been offered a better option other than abort or adopt, would they have taken it? That choice just isn't there though, is it.

You scream pro choice, but you never present any choices but abortion, adoption, or keep the baby go on welfare. What about the choice to live a better life?

Nothing is worse than a woman who has no hope.

Cheri, maybe you should go sit in on a support group of unwed teenaged ex-mothers who were forced to abort because they didn't know what else to do and couldn't afford to do it if they did. They mourn their babies. They grieve, everyone tells them its easy, but no one tells them the pain it causes.

Anyway, I'm going to work now. With unwed mothers to be. I teach them computer skills. Good day.

 

[naudiz]

I, personally, would not have an abortion.

I would also not volunteer to house, clothe, feed, and care for a pregnant woman and her child. I would not see to that baby's health and nurturing. I would not put that child through school. I would, in fact, not lift a damned finger. Why would I? It's not my life, and not my business to get involved.

That being the case, why in Hell would I tell a woman how she should choose? Having children isn't necessarily a responsible choice, either. Look at all the unwanted, emotionally (if not physically) abused kids living below the poverty line in the U.S. alone.

There are good arguments for and against. If there was an easy answer we would have found it years ago. The bottom line is: if I'm not going to get involved enough to help that woman 'do the right thing' (as I see it), then I shouldn't stick my nose in at all. If I'm not going to guide her down the path, I'm not going to choose it for her.

This half-assed moralizing gets tedious. It's easy to tell someone how they should live. It's easy to judge. Look in the mirror. Fix the mess you see there. Then come tell me what I'm doing wrong.

 

[Weird Harold]

I get so sick of both sides of this argument generalizing.

Each and every pregancy where abortion is a possibility is different! Only those people who have intimiate and direct knowledge of the circumstances should have any say in what decision is made.

The only way the law should get involved, is to mandate that information on alternatives be provided to those making the decision so an informed choice can be made.

 

[Cyan BloodsBane]

Weird Harold is very right... Those who create it should have the right to keep it or get rid of it... (Except in times of rape and such where the young lady should be able to get rid of it right away) No questions asked.

 

[Tamtam]

i dont want to get into the whole abortion thing because i get emotional and dont tend to make sense when i get that way. but i wanted to address the point you made on adoption. i dont know if someone has made it already. i didnt read through every post. you stated that not all babies but up for adoption are adopted. the truth is that if a person/couple/family/etc. wants to adopt a newborn they are put on a 6-8 year waiting list. There is a shortage of new borns. It is the older kids that arent adopt. the ones that werent put into the system until they were older... Its kinda like people and dogs...everyone wants a puppy. nobody wants a loyal older dog.
sorry for my ramblings...im a social work major so ive done alot of research into the area.