A weighty issue

[Netzach]

I mostly do my shopping at trader joes, but not for my meat - I can't afford their prices and they don't sell bulk.

I've been looking online for co-ops in my area and not having a lot of luck. Most of the ones I've found are big on the whole 'peace' thing and I don't think the wife (and sister) and children of a soldier would be welcome...

I can assure you that no one at any co-op I've ever been in has any issues with troops, their families, or would even know if they did. There's no political litmus test for buying split peas. Sure, it's entirely possible that your 5% of purchase may go to anti war or globalization causes but they're more likely to be a "let's get a solar panel on the roof of the co-op" thing.

Then again, this is MN. A lot of the food activists are --- farmers. Not just yuppies gone farmer, so they're going to be a decent representation of small town people who are pissed at giant Ag fucking them.

 

[Keroin]

That's what I figured. Canning food, at first, was an awesome idea. You can send vegetables to areas that don't have 'em, etc. But it's the junk food companies are making a 'killing' on that stuff.

Do you know how to can your own food? You can can carrots and it's SO much better for you than the bought canned foods. Plus it actually tastes good.

Mmm, canning supplies here = zero. I think unless you've lived on a faraway island, it's hard to appreciate the scarcity of goods. Yesterday I went out to buy a can opener. I found exactly one. The price was $20 but what can I do? What most people consider basics, we consider luxuries. Something as simple as a toaster, a mirror, a can of paint, often are impossible to get.

No, when I leave here I will never eat canned food again.

 

[graceanne]

Smoked salmon (not lox, not the same) = chocolate x 1000.

BLASPHEMY!

Mmm, canning supplies here = zero. I think unless you've lived on a faraway island, it's hard to appreciate the scarcity of goods. Yesterday I went out to buy a can opener. I found exactly one. The price was $20 but what can I do? What most people consider basics, we consider luxuries. Something as simple as a toaster, a mirror, a can of paint, often are impossible to get.

No, when I leave here I will never eat canned food again.

Oh, I believe that. I've had my canning supplies my whole adult life, though. My mother insists. Of course that would be difficult to ship. I hate canning, but it's nice to know that if the economy collapses (as everyone in my family is SURE will happen ANY DAY NOW) I can grow my own stuff and can it.

 

[satindesire]

Mmm, canning supplies here = zero. I think unless you've lived on a faraway island, it's hard to appreciate the scarcity of goods. Yesterday I went out to buy a can opener. I found exactly one. The price was $20 but what can I do? What most people consider basics, we consider luxuries. Something as simple as a toaster, a mirror, a can of paint, often are impossible to get.

No, when I leave here I will never eat canned food again.

Do you need stuff Kerbear!? Like, can I send you a care package or something?!

 

[Netzach]

I have no freaking idea how to can and I'm terrified that I'm going to kill us all if I try canning or jarring stuff.


This, among MN born women, is like having no eyelashes.

 

[graceanne]

Do you need stuff Kerbear!? Like, can I send you a care package or something?!

I was thinking we should send her some pecans.

 

[satindesire]

I was thinking we should send her some pecans.

I have a pecan tree in my backyard.

 

[graceanne]

I have a pecan tree in my backyard.

We did when we lived in Texas.

I cannot STAND pecans anymore.

 

[WriterDom]

I can send k figs in a month or so. Chestnuts in the fall. Chestnuts major YUCK.

 

[Keroin]

I cant recall where you are exactly, but I found it kind of alarming that the top 5 most obese nations were primarily if not uniformly Pacific Islands. Whatever's playing out where you are is playing out across a number of similar regions.

I'm still banking on the notion that the top 5 nations' people are being exposed to some really heinous food that their particular metabolic trends are particularly screwed up by, at an even higher rate than other more diverse populations. - I'm assuming the populations of Tonga and the Cook Islands are fairly homogenous.

I don't know what combats the crap aspects of globalization if anything. I guess the fact that information is also global or rapidly becoming more global is the only tonic I can think of. In positive news, you have things like sex workers' unions in India traveling to African nations to do outreach, networking and education among other third world sex workers - people who can relate doing by-and-for advocacy which is realistic in their lives. Being poor and marginalized doesn't cut people off from the potential for innovation and ideas - who knows, maybe a Tonga-based "eat local and sustainable" initiative could happen.

I wanted to speak more of this. Information is becoming global but for people who live in rural or hard to reach places it is happening very, very slowly. The internet is a new phenomenon here. The slow speed and high cost make it virtually unusable for most islanders. I do some work with the tourism board here and they are still 20 years behind the modern world in their thinking and much of their technology.

The other issue is implementing new ideas. The locals here are resistant, if not hostile, to ideas from foreigners and this has been the case in many places I've lived in. Maybe things will change but it's going to take a whole lot of time and a whole lot more patience and persistence. Trust me, I have been working for the past twenty months with a couple of environmental groups here and banging one's head against a brick wall non-stop would often feel more productive.

If there is going to be change in many of these places, it needs to come from within. I think programs to encourage "the ones who got away" to come back and teach within their field, would be a great start. That,of course, would require support from a non-corrupt government and...sigh...that's a whole other thread.

 

[Keroin]

Do you need stuff Kerbear!? Like, can I send you a care package or something?!

I was thinking we should send her some pecans.

I can send k figs in a month or so. Chestnuts in the fall. Chestnuts major YUCK.

You crazy kids!

Only three months left. I'm good. I have one more care package from civilization, enroute - friend from Florida, hope he puts some oranges in! LOL.

I bitch and moan but there is a good aspect to living without, too. You develop a new appreciation for the very simple things in life. Wearing socks, for example. For the first year and a half, I only had running water about three days a week, if I was lucky. This meant using buckets brought in from outside to flush toilets and showering on the beach, (hose connected to rain water tank). Now the island has finally fixed the system and I get water flowing whenever I want. I feel like a queen!

You'd be surprised at how many things you think you can't live without, until you have to.

But thank you all for thinking of me, that's very sweet! Oh, and sending stuff here is ridiculously expensive.

 

[graceanne]

You'd be surprised at how many things you think you can't live without, until you have to.

No I wouldn't. I grew up very poor. I went without a lot of things. It's why I'm content with what some would consider poverty. So far I haven't had to eat the dandelions in the back yard because there's no food, again.

 

[satindesire]

I also grew up in a household where we didn't always know where our next meal was coming from.

I know how it feels to go without.

Oranges, eh? Is that what you want? Do you want like, hot cocoa? Cosmo magazines? Beef jerky? Beauty products?

We can get big ole bags of oranges here for next to nothing. Just how expensive is expensive in terms of sending you stuff?

 

[graceanne]

I also grew up in a household where we didn't always know where our next meal was coming from.

I know how it feels to go without.

Oranges, eh? Is that what you want? Do you want like, hot cocoa? Cosmo magazines? Beef jerky? Beauty products?

We can get big ole bags of oranges here for next to nothing. Just how expensive is expensive in terms of sending you stuff?

Another question to ask is how long does it take to send it - cause if it takes months anything perishable will be bad when it gets there.

 

[Keroin]

I also grew up in a household where we didn't always know where our next meal was coming from.

I know how it feels to go without.

Oranges, eh? Is that what you want? Do you want like, hot cocoa? Cosmo magazines? Beef jerky? Beauty products?

We can get big ole bags of oranges here for next to nothing. Just how expensive is expensive in terms of sending you stuff?

Very $$$ My sister sent me a small box of spices and chocolate last year and sent it airmail. $100. Like I said, don't worry about me, I've only got three months left. (But thanks!)

Another question to ask is how long does it take to send it - cause if it takes months anything perishable will be bad when it gets there.

Ay, there's the rub. Airmail is over the top expensive. Slow mail takes a minimum of three months to arrive, usually longer. Even airmail has no guarantee - my Amazon orders generally take six to seven weeks to arrive. It's a lottery. And of course, sending any kind of food products gets customs all worked into a lather.

My friend in Florida gets free shipping through the business he runs so that's why he's sending goodies. AND the post office just called to say I have a package!!!!

Gotta run!

 

[Homburg]

It's actually pretty easy to do with your milk. When you're getting into butter yogurt and cream cheese and stuff it gets harder and pricier. I've just gone to using less of that, and stinkier more flavorful cheese I can stretch further.

The milk is the big place I'm doing it. The info on exogenous hormones in milk are pretty unpleasant.

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This is why I mentioned Big Agriculture and the American food industry, earlier on the thread. I don't have access to data linking hormones to obesity, but it wouldn't surprise me at all.

I would love to see it. Doubt we will though. There's way too damned much money at stake.

We need a another Upton Sinclair.

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I attribute my weight gain to biting the heads off squirrels in the park.

What, I'm the only one?

Om nom nom.

Funniest post on here in weeks.

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Is this on topic? All this health/government stuff made me think about this:

After the ephedra crisis in 04, I don't understand how the FDA peoples can still sleep at night when they allow the production and sale of cigarettes. 14k some-odd people complained about adverse reactions to ephedra (and people were making meth with it) but 5.4 million deaths around the world were caused by cigs in 04 and Marlboro's are still on the shelves.....

*facepalm*

The money, and thus taxes, produced by cigarette sales is astronomical. A truly staggering section of the economy here in the south revolves around tobacco, thus their lobbyists are stunningly well-paid, competent, connected, and effective.

Ephedra, by comparison, is weak and pitiful.

 

[nh23]

Cheaper: what we did was we got together about 8 people and we bought bulk items at Blooming Prairie Co-op (it's in IA) for all non-perishables. If you have a nearer co-op that has bulk discount and enough concerned friends you can pool your $$$ and save a ton.

8 people, maybe 10? Cost per 10 week college term of eating this, plus weekly produce and dairy runs on conventional but RBH free cheese and milk and yogurt for the non-vegan majority was $125.

$125. And food/produce in MN tends to be priced high.

So that's pretty good. I can spend that in a week on two people without this kind of discipline.

So we had the 30 pound bag of rice, the 15 lbs of dried black beans, the non-refined sugar, the chocolate chips because you will at some juncture want a treat and better yours than theirs, right, and I'm trying to think what else - quinoa. Grits. This wasn't geared towards super low cal, but going organic and very very cheap, keep that in mind. It was healthier in that it really made it possible to eat entirely unprocessed food. You have to plan ahead. You have to eat a lot of ground beef and bean kind of soups and things.

I buy spices at the Indian-owned grocery store, the prices are so much lower than the supermarket. Nuts too, really inexpensive. If you don't have one of those, again Trader Joe's is really good.

The problem with TJ's is when you veer off the perimeter. If you shop the perimeter of TJ's and ONLY go off to get your frozen fish, you're OK. The problem is that they have an astounding amount of high quality tasty and totally high calorie and price tag pre-prepared. Ignore those, and you're saving money.

They're crap for produce. I don't have the discipline to go to the farmer's market like I should, so I buy conventional produce and a lot of frozen produce still. Frozen veggies are a godsend, because they're fast and brainless on those nights I don't want to do ANYTHING. Frozen veggies, a little peanut butter, a little sriracha Thai hot sauce, and the chicken I hope I was smart enough to roast en masse that monday and you're done in 5 min.

Fish? It's tough, it's pretty expensive. That's the hardest one to bring down costs on.

Well mercury freakouts notwithstanding I buy loads of tuna and sardines for quick throw it togethers. Trader Joe's is amazingly good on sole, cod and tilapia frozen prices - the quality is decent. I got a whole mess of sole filets for about 5-6 bucks - now this is all frozen fish, but I do a lot to my fish, so unless it's a special occasion I forgo fresh. I also got wild caught swordfish for about 6 or 7 bucks for 2 steaks, which isn't too bad.

I cook these, then break them up in salad with a bit of homemade mango salsa (made in about 30 seconds in a small chopper food processor) and this lasts 2 days or feeds 4.

I stretch meat into non-meat things like an insane woman.

Thank you! We don't have a trader joe's around here. I've actually never heard of it. We have a Walmart, Sam's club, and Kroger. Those are our biggies. I can get some things at Aldi for cheap, but the quality sucks. We do have a local farmers market that I haven't been to yet. Mostly because of social anxiety, but I may have to just get over it and go.

The money, and thus taxes, produced by cigarette sales is astronomical. A truly staggering section of the economy here in the south revolves around tobacco, thus their lobbyists are stunningly well-paid, competent, connected, and effective.

Ephedra, by comparison, is weak and pitiful.

Oh yeah. I'm a pack a day+ smoker. (I know it's horrible and I don't want to hear any shit about it. I'm aware) Right now I'm paying $5.50 a pack for Marlboro's. They were $2.00 a pack when I was buying them 8 years ago.

 

[Homburg]

On this island, family units and social structure are vastly different from the US. There are no daycare's and no such thing as a babysitter. People live in extended family units and child care is taken on by all members. No one here works the hours or under the kind of stress we westerners do, as the pursuit of money is not culturally important. And yet, this place has a 90% overweight/obesity rate, as do many other small countries just like it. So, there is something bigger going on here, (here, meaning on a world wide scale, not on an individual level), than just health issues and lack of time.

I am of the train of thought, and this is something Netz touched on as well, that various populations evolved eating a certain diet. While diets of other regions might be effective at keeping them alive, it is not going to be effective at keeping them healthy.

So, in the case of your islanders, they evolved as a people eating fish, locally grown fruits, etc. This was an effective and functional diet for them. Other food sources and dietary memes arrive and displace the traditional ones by virtue of ease. Junk food is cheap and easy compared to fishing and gathering mangoes. But the wheat, corn, etc in these products has no place in the gut of these peoples, and is slowly killing them.

Much of this is based on the enzymes present in your system, as these determine what you can efficiently digest, versus the things that you can basically digest. In the wayback days, people ate foods because it was what they could get. Certain foods tasted good (fruit as an example) because of nutrients present in those foods. If you think about it, a lot of nutritional foods do taste good. The problem is that junk food tastes better.

Modern junk/processed food makes liberal use of cheap sweeteners (corn syrup), MSG, and salt to increase the taste factor, and the addictiveness of the foods. While we as humans can still enjoy, and get happy brain chemicals, from a handful of blueberries, we get FAR more of those same happy brain chemicals from the purpose-engineered junk foods available now. Food has become a drug.

So, as our theoretical islander, if you can find a tasty mango and enjoy it, fine. But if you can hit the store and buy a twinkie, and fireworks go off in your brain, so much the better. The fact that you can't really digest it right is immaterial.

I would love to see some sort of way to figure out the enzyme profile in a given individual to be able to produce a range of dietary choices that make sense. For me, pasta is a horrible thing. Yet when I eat rice, I'm good. And give me cabbage and pork, and I'm just ducky. My Japanese and Scottish/Polish ancestry at work? Or just foods I grew up on? Fuck if I know. I've never tried to live on that sort of thing sufficiently to make the call. It might be dead tough, as there are other people living in this house too, and their enzymatic profiles may well be different.

Interestingly, we all have slavic foods in our background. Makes me wonder if we should be eating more foods along those lines.

Some people have mentioned food additives, such as hormones, this is a possibility. I'd be curious to hear more theories.

I would love to see it. I've read that milk, as said before, carries sex hormones, and have also read some stuff that implies that meat does as well. Big Ag pumps cows, chickens, etc chock full of what amounts to steroids and growth hormone to force them to grow as quickly as possible. That shit pervades the muscle cells of those creatures, and is still present when they hit the market. Does that have an effect on us? I'd love to know.

Showing people that vegetarian does not equal "tasteless" and "salads" would be a good start, too. I consider myself a Flexitarian, that is to say that I can easily enjoy a meal with or without meat. Weaning people off their meat dependency would be beneficial on numerous levels.

The problem is that vegetarian diets will flat kill a certain portion of the populace. Some people literally must have meat proteins in their diet. Not saying that people should be dependent on meat, but veg is not the answer for everyone.

Portion sizes need to be addressed. I think what most people consider a normal portion size is far larger than they actually need. I don't weigh out my foods or anything but, over time, I've learned to visually determine what is the right quantity for me - with the meat being the smallest and the vegetables being the largest.

This is fluid too. Portion size that is right for you would be a few bites for me. A skinny little slip of a girl like yourself has vastly different caloric needs than someone my size. And that comment is only taking my lean muscle mass into account.

Part of the problem is that portions aren't variable. Most restaurants put a pile of food on the plate (often too much for me, frighteningly enough), and that's that. Smaller portions are generally not available. That said, I've noticed a small, but growing trend, towards having smaller portion options. Usually it is a "seniors" menu, but sometimes it isn't. MIS and I stopped at a Denny's (breakfast all day, om nom nom), and they had a section of smaller portion meals called "Just right". I thought it was a fantastic idea.

Honestly though, when I was in the best shape I've been in in recent years, I ate like a horse. I *HAD* to have huge amounts of food to be able to recover from the pounding I was putting my body through under the bar.

Is the old food pyramid still being taught in school? You know the one with all the breads and grains making up the big base at the bottom? This is quite possibly the worst diet info people can be given.

They redesigned it. I have looked too much, but it is set up differently.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/daily/graphics/diet_042005.gif

(Linked instead of posting it as the gif is somewhat large)

Heaviest by volume is dairy (3 cups), then veggies (2.5), and then fruits (2). 6oz of grains, then 5.5oz of meats. A sliver of it is devoted to oils. I dislike that,a s we need more healthy oils in our diets, but I can understand that they want to reduce the use of shitty oils.

A 2000cal diet, however, is a joke.

 

[satindesire]

The money, and thus taxes, produced by cigarette sales is astronomical. A truly staggering section of the economy here in the south revolves around tobacco, thus their lobbyists are stunningly well-paid, competent, connected, and effective.

Ephedra, by comparison, is weak and pitiful.

I know that tobacco=money. The FDA is supposed to protect us, though, correct? I was just assuming they thought human lives were worth something?

It was more of a rant. I know exactly why cigarettes and alcohol are legal and buyable, I know that the FDA doesn't ACTUALLY give a shit about us dirty, uneducated peons. That doesn't make me feel any better.

 

[nh23]

A 2000cal diet, however, is a joke.

Why? I found a site that gives me the caloric, protein, fat, etc.. needs based on height, body type, and weight. It says I can have 1,800 a day and still lose a pound a week. It also tells you how many with exercise, and without. I've cut mine down to 1,500- 1,600. Mostly because fish, veggies, and fruit are so low in calories that I can't force myself to eat more than that without being sick.

 

[graceanne]

A 2000cal diet, however, is a joke.

I couldn't eat 2000 calories a day if you paid me to.

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

I know that tobacco=money. The FDA is supposed to protect us, though, correct? I was just assuming they thought human lives were worth something?

It was more of a rant. I know exactly why cigarettes and alcohol are legal and buyable, I know that the FDA doesn't ACTUALLY give a shit about us dirty, uneducated peons. That doesn't make me feel any better.

Actually they are trying to help.

WASHINGTON -President Barack Obama is lauding the passage of historic anti-smoking legislation that gives the government sweeping authority to regulate tobacco products, pledging to quickly sign the measure into law.

"For over a decade, leaders of both parties have fought to prevent tobacco companies from marketing their products to children and provide the public with the information they need to understand what a dangerous habit this is," said Obama, who has struggled for years to kick his own nicotine habit.

The House on Friday gave final approval to the bill after a bitter fight lasting nearly a half-century. The measure for the first time will give the Food and Drug Administration authority to regulate what goes into tobacco products, demand changes or elimination of toxic substances and block the introduction of new products.

Lawmakers and the White House quickly declared it would save the lives of thousands of smokers of all ages. Even more important, they said, the measure could keep countless young people from starting in the first place.
The thousand health and consumer groups that endorsed the bill say that, combined with other anti-smoking efforts, it can significantly reduce the 400,000 deaths and $100 billion in health care costs attributed every year to smoking in the U.S.

Under the legislation:

— Cigarette packages will have warning labels that cover 50 percent of the front and rear. The word "warning" must be included in capital letters.

— Any remaining tobacco-related sponsorships of sports and entertainment events will be banned, as will giveaways of non-tobacco items with the purchase of a tobacco product. A federal ban will be imposed on all outdoor tobacco advertising within 1,000 feet of schools and playgrounds.

— Point-of-sale advertising will be limited to adults-only facilities, and remaining vending machines will disappear except in places restricted to adults. Retailers who sell to minors will be subject to federal enforcement and penalties.

— Smokers, particularly the younger crowd, will find they can no longer buy cigarettes sweetened by candy flavors or any herb or spices such as strawberry, grape, orange, clove, cinnamon or vanilla. Cigarettes advertised as "light" or "mild," giving the impression that they aren't as harmful to health, will no longer be found on store shelves.

With an estimated 3,500 young people smoking their first cigarette each day, the ban on flavorings alone could have significant health benefits, said Dr. Adam Goldstein, director of the University of North Carolina Tobacco Prevention and Evaluation Program.

He said it was not inconceivable that adult smokers, now more than 20 percent of the population, could be reduced to less than 5 percent in 20 years.

Other factors that could cut into tobacco use include the sharp rise in prices
— Congress earlier this year approved a 62-cent a pack increase in the federal cigarette tax to pay for a children's health program — and measures by the states to ban smoking in public places.

New FDA Commissioner Dr. Margaret Hamburg said the agency was ready to "roll up our sleeves" to meet the new obligations.

The Senate passed the FDA bill on Thursday by a 79-17 vote and the House followed suit on Friday, with a 307-97 vote.

Marlboro maker Philip Morris USA, the nation's largest tobacco company, came out in support of the bill, saying it was behind tough but fair regulation. Its chief rivals were opposed, saying that FDA restrictions on new products would lock in Philip Morris' share of the market.

Costs of the new program will be paid for by a new user fee imposed on the industry. The Congressional Budget Office estimated that assessments could rise from $235 million in 2010 to $712 million in 2019.

 

[Homburg]

Phillip Morris is the devil.

 

[Homburg]

I know that tobacco=money. The FDA is supposed to protect us, though, correct? I was just assuming they thought human lives were worth something?

It was more of a rant. I know exactly why cigarettes and alcohol are legal and buyable, I know that the FDA doesn't ACTUALLY give a shit about us dirty, uneducated peons. That doesn't make me feel any better.

The FDA exists to protect the govt first, manufacturers second (even if part of it is protecting them from themselves), and us a distant third. It is better than not having an FDA, but only just.

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Why? I found a site that gives me the caloric, protein, fat, etc.. needs based on height, body type, and weight. It says I can have 1,800 a day and still lose a pound a week. It also tells you how many with exercise, and without. I've cut mine down to 1,500- 1,600. Mostly because fish, veggies, and fruit are so low in calories that I can't force myself to eat more than that without being sick.

I couldn't eat 2000 calories a day if you paid me to.

Because of Graceanne's post, among other things. The implication of the bog standard 2000cal diet is that it is a one-size-fits-all. That everyone should be consuming 2k, and that's that. It would be better to list it as "per 2000 cals" or somesuch. Many people need less, and many need more.

And, honestly, 1800cals may well be too low for you. Undereating will keep you fat just as quickly as overeating will.

You are a solid woman. Regardless of size, you move well. This tells me that you carry a good amount of muscle. Muscle needs fuel. Underfeeding your muscle mass causes a drop in metabolism, hormonal shifts, etc, and the body stays firmly in the "store fat" mode to ward off starvation.

I've done hypo-caloric diets. They suck. You lose poundage, but it is because your body is cannibalising muscle tissue. That said, I don't know what you weigh, and I don't know what your lean muscle mass is. 1800 cals may be fine for you. Dunno.

 

[nh23]

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Because of Graceanne's post, among other things. The implication of the bog standard 2000cal diet is that it is a one-size-fits-all. That everyone should be consuming 2k, and that's that. It would be better to list it as "per 2000 cals" or somesuch. Many people need less, and many need more.

And, honestly, 1800cals may well be too low for you. Undereating will keep you fat just as quickly as overeating will.

You are a solid woman. Regardless of size, you move well. This tells me that you carry a good amount of muscle. Muscle needs fuel. Underfeeding your muscle mass causes a drop in metabolism, hormonal shifts, etc, and the body stays firmly in the "store fat" mode to ward off starvation.

I've done hypo-caloric diets. They suck. You lose poundage, but it is because your body is cannibalising muscle tissue. That said, I don't know what you weigh, and I don't know what your lean muscle mass is. 1800 cals may be fine for you. Dunno.

I do have a good bit of muscle. Especially in my upper body from lifting patients for some many years. Now I'm wondering about this. I don't want to hinder myself. I'm 5'2. If I told you my weight would it help any?