A weighty issue

[Netzach]

That was a straight question, inviting people into a discussion based on economics, not anecdotal observation or emotional defensiveness.

I got that.

Top priority depends who you are and where you live. I can't say that I don't care about this issue, but AIDS and meth are top tier concerns in my own community. They aren't killing middle class white straight guys as much, so they're on the back page. They cost less economically because we're content to let a lot of people go off and die.

From an economic standpoint, sure, obesity is more of a problem. Everything OSG said burns my toast and gets me going in the morning.

From a I'm fucking sick of seeing marginalized people destroy themselves right in front of my eyes with the self-hate they learn from haters, my priorities are just different.

 

[Homburg]

It is definitely a flawed tool when you start dealing with anyone who has altered their body shape toward a lot of muscle. The shorter you are, the sillier it gets.
T is a short dude with a small frame who has spent a very athletic life. Your organs even fall off the bell curve sometimes - one cardio was freaking over an enlarged heart and a more expert one said "well you have a seventeen inch neck. I'm not worried."

That is an interesting point. My dad's cardio doc was having some issues with his enlarged heart, and my pop has the same bull neck I do. He's probably a 17.5" neck, and I've got an inch on him there easily.

 

[Netzach]

Here's a question though. This trend is comparatively recent, aye? Is there any correlation between the increase in obesity and the food industry's increased usage of various steroid and growth hormone style additives in animal feed?

Riffing off of OSG's mention of menses happening younger and younger, I did read about a study that discussed the widespread incidence of increased exogenous sex hormones in the environment. It cited both an increase in the use in animal feed (milk being particularly common carrier), and the release from various plastics used in food containers.

It makes me wonder if a solid portion of this trend could be related to hormone usage on factory farms.

Ding ding ding on cancer causes you will not be seeing anyone do anything about.

Like the price of milk needed to be driven down that much.

Monsanto made it so that if I run polka dot farms I have to say I'm not implying RBGH is bad for you if I choose not to put this shit in my cows.

 

[Homburg]

Ding ding ding on cancer causes you will not be seeing anyone do anything about.

Like the price of milk needed to be driven down that much.

Monsanto made it so that if I run polka dot farms I have to say I'm not implying RBGH is bad for you if I choose not to put this shit in my cows.

This hurts my brain. I've told viv previously that I want hormone free products where possible.

It bugs me that I can't trust the food I buy even on the perimeter of the store.

 

[Netzach]

This hurts my brain. I've told viv previously that I want hormone free products where possible.

It bugs me that I can't trust the food I buy even on the perimeter of the store.

It's actually pretty easy to do with your milk. When you're getting into butter yogurt and cream cheese and stuff it gets harder and pricier. I've just gone to using less of that, and stinkier more flavorful cheese I can stretch further.

 

[JMohegan]

Here's a question though. This trend is comparatively recent, aye? Is there any correlation between the increase in obesity and the food industry's increased usage of various steroid and growth hormone style additives in animal feed?

Riffing off of OSG's mention of menses happening younger and younger, I did read about a study that discussed the widespread incidence of increased exogenous sex hormones in the environment. It cited both an increase in the use in animal feed (milk being particularly common carrier), and the release from various plastics used in food containers.

It makes me wonder if a solid portion of this trend could be related to hormone usage on factory farms.

This is why I mentioned Big Agriculture and the American food industry, earlier on the thread. I don't have access to data linking hormones to obesity, but it wouldn't surprise me at all.

Pick up anything that comes in a jar, can, bottle, or package and look at the ingredients. Who really knows what any of that shit means? And that doesn't even cover what's fed to the animals that produce our meat and dairy products.

Some people are doing good research on this, Michael Pollan being one.

 

[BiBunny]

I really don't know what's being fed to dairy/meat-producing livestock, but I'm assuming it's not too different from what's fed to horses, growth hormones aside.

I have two horses with metabolic disorders. It is very, very expensive to feed them properly because horse/livestock food is JUST like human food. It's filled with cheap crap that's not good for anyone.

In order to keep those two horses, we have to skimp on feed for our other three. Not that we don't feed them, of course, but the two horses with issues are fed much healthier food than the other three because we simply can't afford to feed five horses the good stuff. Luckily, the three non-sick ones appear not to be suffering. Plus, they get nearly 24 hours' worth of turnout in the summer, so they're able to get plenty of exercise.

God knows how expensive feeding them would be if we didn't grow and bale our own hay. I don't think we could do it.

So, since dairy/meat-producing livestock is simply a for-profit affair, I sincerely doubt those animals are being fed anything more than what they absolutely must have, not what's healthy for either the animal or the person consuming the animal or animal products.

Y'all do realize that most cheap animal feeds (and, yes, this does include cat/dog food, too) is just the crap that's leftover after the premium stuff has been made, right? Kinda like hamburger meat? They just sweep the leftovers up off the floor and cram it into a sack. If the ingredients listed on the bag says "wheat product" or "corn product" or whatever, then that's exactly what they're doing. To get dedicated ingredients, you have to pay big bucks. ($16-$17 a bag in Alabama for 50 pounds of horse feed at the moment.)

There's not much doubt in my mind that the rise of metabolic disorders in animals and people is linked to a.) the way we breed (animals and people) and b.) the crap we feed them.

 

[Keroin]

as i stated before, what concerns me most are the widespread social trends...like, how in the U.S. it's now considered normal to be overweight. or how those who are overweight tend to become obese and those who are obese tend to become morbidly obese and i've already said my piece on the "super" morbidly obese. it's like, is there just no turning back?

it's disturbing to me how many folks nowadays have type II diabetes, especially how many of those folks are kids under 12. it's disturbing to me that Phys Ed. has been cut out of most public school programs in the U.S. it's disturbing that so many 8 and 9 y.o. girls have started menses. it's disturbing to me that movie theaters and airplanes have to be reconfigured in order to accommodate the very significant number of people who are too large for standard seating. it is disturbing to me that hospitals have to weigh people on laundry scales and have to bolt toilet seats to the wall.

it is IMMENSELY disturbing to me that there is a fast food joint around every corner. it ANGERS me that fresh, quality meat and produce are just plain unaffordable to the folks who need it the most. it ANGERS me that preventative health care and education are totally nonexistent in this country. it burns my britches that global westernization has caused obesity to be an issue in countries who never previously conceived of such a thing.

so yeah, that is what gets to me...the big picture. the monster change in society. the way that all signs indicate it will only get worse. i don't care how people look, and i don't care about health insurance costs. it matters to me as a part of the global community and specifically as a resident of the western world.

Nice rant. Really. The part in bold is important.

 

[Netzach]

I really don't know what's being fed to dairy/meat-producing livestock, but I'm assuming it's not too different from what's fed to horses, growth hormones aside.

I have two horses with metabolic disorders. It is very, very expensive to feed them properly because horse/livestock food is JUST like human food. It's filled with cheap crap that's not good for anyone.

In order to keep those two horses, we have to skimp on feed for our other three. Not that we don't feed them, of course, but the two horses with issues are fed much healthier food than the other three because we simply can't afford to feed five horses the good stuff. Luckily, the three non-sick ones appear not to be suffering. Plus, they get nearly 24 hours' worth of turnout in the summer, so they're able to get plenty of exercise.

God knows how expensive feeding them would be if we didn't grow and bale our own hay. I don't think we could do it.

So, since dairy/meat-producing livestock is simply a for-profit affair, I sincerely doubt those animals are being fed anything more than what they absolutely must have, not what's healthy for either the animal or the person consuming the animal or animal products.

Y'all do realize that most cheap animal feeds (and, yes, this does include cat/dog food, too) is just the crap that's leftover after the premium stuff has been made, right? Kinda like hamburger meat? They just sweep the leftovers up off the floor and cram it into a sack. If the ingredients listed on the bag says "wheat product" or "corn product" or whatever, then that's exactly what they're doing. To get dedicated ingredients, you have to pay big bucks. ($16-$17 a bag in Alabama for 50 pounds of horse feed at the moment.)

There's not much doubt in my mind that the rise of metabolic disorders in animals and people is linked to a.) the way we breed (animals and people) and b.) the crap we feed them.

GMO cheap corn is what you are *hoping* the animal is being fed. I don't need to get graphic on what you might be eating the eater of.

I spend most of my food budget on meat. I don't do organic produce always, much as I'd love to. The higher up the food chain I go the more freaked out I get.

 

[Keroin]

I don't believe that anyone, short of my family and close friends, cares about me more than in a general way. Why? Experience. I guarantee if it came to me vs anyone else in the general public that I'd lose. I love that you try, and that you care more than the average person, but (without looking) what are my health problems? Why am I overweight? What did my doctors tell me regarding my weight?

As for why am I angry - I'm sick of threads like this. A bunch of people talking like they give a shit about the health of the fat person, instead of being honest (as much of an asshole as he is, at least primalex is always honest) and saying they just don't like the way we look.

And, I'm on the rag, I'm bitchy, and I want my husband. This thread is a safe outlet for my crankiness.

I understand you're feeling cranky but I didn't start this thread to bash fat people and I didn't start it for people to accuse others of being shallow, self-centered and morally superior. I wanted to start a dialogue about a global problem with the hopes that this crowd was intelligent enough not to start mudslinging on a personal level.

There are many problems in the world, escalating obesity is just one of them but that does not diminish its importance.

If you are sick of threads like this I suggest you don't participate and/or start a thread about a topic that interests you. I like you Gracie but I don't like what you're saying today.

 

[BiBunny]

GMO cheap corn is what you are *hoping* the animal is being fed. I don't need to get graphic on what you might be eating the eater of.

I spend most of my food budget on meat. I don't do organic produce always, much as I'd love to. The higher up the food chain I go the more freaked out I get.

For sure. To be honest, corn is not good for anyone. Human, animal, thin, fat, whatever. But it's cheap, so there you go. And, like you said, it's actually an improvement over what the animals *could* be eating.

*Shudder* I don't like to think about it.

Also, for the record, if you have animals, don't, for the love of God, feed them Purina feeds. Kthanxbi.

 

[WriterDom]

Fat people do have it bad. Saw a show once where this hot girl needed help and guys were falling all over her to help. Then they put a fat suit on her and no one would help her.

And there is so much pressure on young girls to be skinny that everyone young, as in 18-22, I talk to and get pictures from thinks they are fat. And in some cases they are actually too skinny.

My poor ex was a redhead and they tend to pork up a little as they get older. She was 38 at the time and worked out as hard as anyone I know but just could lose 20 pounds or so. She just stayed the same no matter what diet she tired. And now she has gained more over stressing about a big promotion. I wish she wouldn't worry about it so much. It never bothered me.

 

[Keroin]

This is why I mentioned Big Agriculture and the American food industry, earlier on the thread. I don't have access to data linking hormones to obesity, but it wouldn't surprise me at all.

Pick up anything that comes in a jar, can, bottle, or package and look at the ingredients. Who really knows what any of that shit means? And that doesn't even cover what's fed to the animals that produce our meat and dairy products.

Some people are doing good research on this, Michael Pollan being one.

In this part of the world, the meat that we get in the store is bottom of the barrel, cheapest quality going. The only local meat consumed is pig and fish. But, thanks to overfishing, there are few consumable fish left inside the lagoon. Pigs are usually saved for special occasions. Large scale agriculture is not feasible because of the size of this island and the fragility of the ecosystem - eg, run off into the lagoon of bio matter and pesticides.

This creates a perfect vacuum for big food companies to move in and pedal their wares. Combine that with a population that is grossly undereducated and you have the perfect market for the worst quality food on the planet to be sold on a regular basis.

Half the labels here are in foreign languages. Not that anyone would read them, anyway.

I'm sure lots of folks just see this as your typical freemarket economy but I see it as exploitation. It's happening everywhere, too.

Diabetes is epidemic here.

I acknowledge that I don't have proof but I do believe that the "unknowns" in our food are definitely contributing both to the rise in obesity and a host of other health problems.

BTW, for anyone in southern California, Clover-Stornetta is a reliable, organic dairy brand that allows no hormones or drugs in the animals that supply them. Terrific company.

 

[graceanne]

I don't participate in discussions with people who insult me personally.

Fuck off.

That was insulting? Wow. Well, if I'm gonna insult you, then I better do it properly. You're an asshole.

If I'm gonna get yelled at, then might as well have done it.

 

[nh23]

I've heard a few comments about lack of time to exercise. Here's my personal philosophy on that - no I am not judging you, just letting you all know what works for me: If I have 30 - 60 minutes to blab on this thread, that means I have 30-60 minutes to exercise. If I have to sacrifice one for the other, exercise must win. I know all about lack of time - the average day on set was 12 hours minimum and often I worked two shows at a time, with maybe a half hour to sleep in between. For me this just meant getting really creative. I used to bring a skipping rope to work and find a place to jump rope for 20 minutes at lunch. I'd bring some wet wipes and rubbing alcohol to clean myself up afterward. AGAIN, this was just me, I do not expect anyone else to behave this way. I'm just making the point that you don't necessarily need a lot of time or money or space to exercise.

Add two kids, one with special needs, and a M/s relationship. I'm exercising. I'm walking six miles a week. Obviously I'm not putting forth the effort I should for some people. Oh, and I do spend time here occasionally. I have 2,498 posts in two years. I need time to relax like everyone else.

You don't care about my health, and you don't care about my mom's health. People find fat people to be offensive because they don't like they way they look.

I feel like this sometimes. I also feel like it's a way to feel they are superior over another group of people. Hell it's always been something. Women, Jews,gays, blacks, fat people. However I don't think all people are like that by far. I think it just feels like that sometimes gracie. *hugs*

As a side note, my personal dictionary:

obese - overweight and ugly
fat - overweight and/but good looking

So what's the distinction? I don't think I'm ugly. BMI says I'm obese.

I don't participate in discussions with people who insult me personally.

Fuck off.

Wow.

That's a super distraction from investigating that whole issue.

How about the assholes I have to be on the phone with for 86 hours who still won't tell me what they think I owe them for work done 3 years ago? Raise your hand if your insurance coverage is easy to deal with, IF you have it.

Insurance. Access. Let's figure out the actuarial data when there aren't so many millions of us working our asses off an uninsured.

I know insurance costs are raising. But you know what, I'd take it. I'd rather pay a little more and have insurance then be like I am now with none. I'll pay a few extra dollars for irresponsible people to save me thousands out of my pocket.

 

[graceanne]

I understand you're feeling cranky but I didn't start this thread to bash fat people and I didn't start it for people to accuse others of being shallow, self-centered and morally superior. I wanted to start a dialogue about a global problem with the hopes that this crowd was intelligent enough not to start mudslinging on a personal level.

There are many problems in the world, escalating obesity is just one of them but that does not diminish its importance.

If you are sick of threads like this I suggest you don't participate and/or start a thread about a topic that interests you. I like you Gracie but I don't like what you're saying today.

I'm sorry. I don't always have to say things that people like. If anyone else was saying the things I am no one would be raising their eyebrows. But it's me, and it pisses people off when I'm not little miss fluffy cookie girl. People on here say things I don't like all the time.

And I don't think you started this thread to bash fat people, but that's the majority of what I'm reading.

I won't start a thread on drunkness or whatever, because I, personally, am not going to do anything about it, and I also know that drunks have an addiction and 'quit drinking' is oversimplifying it. I'm also not going to start a thread about underweight people, because I realize that it's an issue just like being fat and telling them to eat more is ALSO an oversimplification.

Losing weight is not just about eating less and doing more. If people want to believe that, then they're choosing to oversimplify the truth of the matter. There are a million and one things that contribute to weight gain, including health, what, (not how much) you're eating, stress levels, genetics, depression, medications, and how close your children are in age.

ETA: You didn't answer my question. I don't care that you don't know what my health problems and what the doctors said in regards to me losing weight (fyi - they laughed and told me I couldn't), because I understand that I'm just another name on a screen to you. But it makes my point.

 

[Keroin]

Add two kids, one with special needs, and a M/s relationship. I'm exercising. I'm walking six miles a week. Obviously I'm not putting forth the effort I should for some people. Oh, and I do spend time here occasionally. I have 2,498 posts in two years. I need time to relax like everyone else.

You obviously skipped right over the part I underlined. Please show me where I said "And everyone must be like me".

This is getting ridiculous. Anything anyone puts forth here is immediately taken as a personal affront. I really thought folks here were smarter than that.

 

[nh23]

You obviously skipped right over the part I underlined. Please show me where I said "And everyone must be like me".

This is getting ridiculous. Anything anyone puts forth here is immediately taken as a personal affront. I really thought folks here were smarter than that.

It's a forum. You put out a statement, I put out a statement. That's how it works. Of course you didn't say everyone must be like you, however you were giving advice as to how it could be done. I'm telling you how in my shoes it's not that easy.

Insulting my intelligence doesn't hurt a bit. That's one area I'm pretty confident in.

 

[Primalex]

So what's the distinction? I don't think I'm ugly. BMI says I'm obese.

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=31258333&postcount=254

 

[nh23]

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=31258333&postcount=254

True, true. I must have missed that one.

 

[graceanne]

Add two kids, one with special needs, and a M/s relationship. I'm exercising. I'm walking six miles a week. Obviously I'm not putting forth the effort I should for some people. Oh, and I do spend time here occasionally. I have 2,498 posts in two years. I need time to relax like everyone else.

The majority of people here couldn't do everything I do. I know K can't, and he's healthy and skinny. These days I'm adding in single parenting (while K's in Iraq) and time at the gym. The idea that I'm not exercising enough irritates the crap out of me.

I feel like this sometimes. I also feel like it's a way to feel they are superior over another group of people. Hell it's always been something. Women, Jews,gays, blacks, fat people. However I don't think all people are like that by far. I think it just feels like that sometimes gracie. *hugs*

So what's the distinction? I don't think I'm ugly. BMI says I'm obese.

I guess. I don't honestly care that people don't care about me. It gives me an anonymity that I like. That's not what's irritating me. What's irritating me is people thinking they care when they don't.

Someday I will come to terms with people beating around the bush and saying things they don't mean (not a personal attack against anyone) but that's evidently not today.

 

[Keroin]

I'm sorry. I don't always have to say things that people like. If anyone else was saying the things I am no one would be raising their eyebrows. But it's me, and it pisses people off when I'm not little miss fluffy cookie girl. People on here say things I don't like all the time.

And I don't think you started this thread to bash fat people, but that's the majority of what I'm reading.

I won't start a thread on drunkness or whatever, because I, personally, am not going to do anything about it, and I also know that drunks have an addiction and 'quit drinking' is oversimplifying it. I'm also not going to start a thread about underweight people, because I realize that it's an issue just like being fat and telling them to eat more is ALSO an oversimplification.

Losing weight is not just about eating less and doing more. If people want to believe that, then they're choosing to oversimplify the truth of the matter. There are a million and one things that contribute to weight gain, including health, what, (not how much) you're eating, stress levels, genetics, depression, medications, and how close your children are in age.

ETA: You didn't answer my question. I don't care that you don't know what my health problems and what the doctors said in regards to me losing weight (fyi - they laughed and told me I couldn't), because I understand that I'm just another name on a screen to you. But it makes my point.

What I don't like is that you are accusing me of being dishonest. This I find very insulting. You are welcome to your opinion on the subject at hand but not to make unfounded claims against me.

If you don't want to start those threads then please don't complain that you don't see them.

I didn't answer your question because it is not relevant to the discussion I started. I did not start a thread about people's personal weight loss problems, I started a thread about a global problem. (I am so tired of repeating this).

I know that you have health issues that affect weight loss. I know you have crohns. I am well aware that among the population that is overweight/obese there are a certain percentage of people for whom weight loss is either medically impossible or extremely difficult. I am not asking you or anyone to defend their weight.

I'd like to get back to discussing some of the systemic problems and possible solutions.

 

[nh23]

The majority of people here couldn't do everything I do. I know K can't, and he's healthy and skinny. These days I'm adding in single parenting (while K's in Iraq) and time at the gym. The idea that I'm not exercising enough irritates the crap out of me.

I ID as a single mom. I have Master here and he helps with some things, but they are not his responsibility. Every decision about them, plus everyday stuff bath's I do myself. I don't think it's right to impose on him.

That being said I still have one more adult around than you do. I struggle a lot. I can't imagine how it is for you. Not to mention the stress of your husband being overseas.

You're my role model. Seriously, I don't know how you do it.

 

[nh23]

Yes, it's a global problem, and encased in that problem are individuals with thoughts, and feelings, and emotions, and problems. We're not just a lump of people all together. We all have struggles and stories, and I think it's relevant.

ETA I also asked you Kerion way back what you thought some possible solutions were. I said I was glad you cared. I was being honest. So what are some solutions?

 

[BiBunny]

You obviously skipped right over the part I underlined. Please show me where I said "And everyone must be like me".

This is getting ridiculous. Anything anyone puts forth here is immediately taken as a personal affront. I really thought folks here were smarter than that.

It's not a matter of intelligence. It's a matter of struggling daily with something you don't like about yourself. It's an uphill battle. You get used to people being assholes about your weight. You get used to feeling like shit constantly because you have health problems that make your weight get worse, and then, the worse your weight gets, the worse your health problems get. And it's a vicious cycle that's really hard to crawl out of.

I am a fucked-up genetic anomaly. There are days that I feel so bad with my various screwy issues that it's a struggle to even get out of bed. Then being told that I'm not doing enough is disheartening and discouraging, and it DOES make you feel bad about yourself, to the point that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I'm talking to nh23 in Yahoo IM right now. She is a nurse, thus a medical professional. About fifteen minutes ago, this discussion got to me so badly that I sent her some pictures of myself and said, "Tell me the truth. Does it look like I'm just making excuses? Is it not completely obvious that the way my body gains weight is the result of something that's not right?"

I'm about *this* close to posting pictures of myself for comparison.

It's much, much harder than people think it is. And perhaps folks like me, nh, and gracie have heard so much crap that we're overly sensitive to it. But sometimes I wish that everyone who compares their existence to ours had to live our lives for a few days. They might come away with a wealth of understanding that they never had before.