A weighty issue

[graceanne]

As a side note, my personal dictionary:

obese - overweight and ugly
fat - overweight and/but good looking

Well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. *shrugs*

 

[Homburg]

I've got a question for those who keep asserting that the WHO and CDC don't know what the hell they're talking about when they make BMI proclamations, or those who keep pointing out that drug addicts, underweight persons, etc. have health problems too.

Do you have access to studies or data, from credible sources, asserting that American weight increases are *not* cause for economic or national health concern, or, that there is any other epidemic or trend in this country that is a greater cause for concern in terms of economics and citizens' health?

Just to clarify, while I went on a tear or two about the uselessness of BMI as an actual indicator of health, I have no argument with the simple fact that a rising trend towards obesity is generally bad for all and sundry.

The problem I have with the concept is that BMI is so inaccurate and loose that it can pad the numbers in a way to set the statistics how the WHO wants them. I'm not saying there's no more fat folk today than twenty years ago. I'm just saying that BMI allows remarkably healthy people to be lumped into "obese" and "overweight" just because they have more muscle than Joe Sixpack.

Hell, JM, if you were like most college football players, your BMI was very likely to be in the overweight range when you were playing college ball. Most linemen probably fit the obese range (some are, I'm sure, but most that I've seen are just heavy framed guys with a lot of muscle).

So no arguments on the idea that the trend is bad. Just an argument that BMI data is specious and too vague.

 

[graceanne]

Give me 5 years.

What happens then?

 

[Primalex]

Well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. *shrugs*

Of course. This is the tricky part of it, but why would I care about other people's eyes?

 

[graceanne]

Of course. This is the tricky part of it, but why would I care about other people's eyes?

True enough. lol

 

[JMohegan]

I call bullshit. Why? Because you haven't addressed my issue about underweight people and what they're costing the public.

You haven't put up any statistics on health care costs relating to underweight people. I just asked you for some, Graceanne. Have you got any? I invited you into a discussion on the economics of health care. Do you want to participate, or are you just interested interested in hurling personal insults here?

By the way, your herbal musings website is not a source that I find credible. And their claim that 50 million Americans are underweight just doesn't pass the laugh test. There are 307 million Americans; that would be 1 in 6.

 

[graceanne]

You haven't put up any statistics on health care costs relating to underweight people. I just asked you for some, Graceanne. Have you got any? I invited you into a discussion on the economics of health care. Do you want to participate, or are you just interested interested in hurling personal insults here?

By the way, your herbal musings website is not a source that I find credible. And their claim that 50 million Americans are underweight just doesn't pass the laugh test. There are 307 million Americans; that would be 1 in 6.

I didn't find your statistic, because I'm not arguing your findings. I don't claim that we're not costing money. I'm claiming that you could care less that we're unhealthy, that you just don't like how we look.

And if you don't like my source, find me a site that says otherwise.

 

[Primalex]

What happens then?

Then you will be happily slurping my dick, silly.

 

[graceanne]

Then you will be happily slurping my dick, silly.

Darn, I was hoping you turned into a pumpkin.

But you just keep telling yourself that. lol

 

[Primalex]

Darn, I was hoping you turned into a pumpkin.

Easy.

 

[ownedsubgal]

as i stated before, what concerns me most are the widespread social trends...like, how in the U.S. it's now considered normal to be overweight. or how those who are overweight tend to become obese and those who are obese tend to become morbidly obese and i've already said my piece on the "super" morbidly obese. it's like, is there just no turning back?

it's disturbing to me how many folks nowadays have type II diabetes, especially how many of those folks are kids under 12. it's disturbing to me that Phys Ed. has been cut out of most public school programs in the U.S. it's disturbing that so many 8 and 9 y.o. girls have started menses. it's disturbing to me that movie theaters and airplanes have to be reconfigured in order to accommodate the very significant number of people who are too large for standard seating. it is disturbing to me that hospitals have to weigh people on laundry scales and have to bolt toilet seats to the wall.

it is IMMENSELY disturbing to me that there is a fast food joint around every corner. it ANGERS me that fresh, quality meat and produce are just plain unaffordable to the folks who need it the most. it ANGERS me that preventative health care and education are totally nonexistent in this country. it burns my britches that global westernization has caused obesity to be an issue in countries who never previously conceived of such a thing.

so yeah, that is what gets to me...the big picture. the monster change in society. the way that all signs indicate it will only get worse. i don't care how people look, and i don't care about health insurance costs. it matters to me as a part of the global community and specifically as a resident of the western world.

 

[Netzach]

Ok, here's some stuff for people who claim they're worried about people's health when they're overweight.

The average waist size of a woman in the 1950's was approximately 28 inches and the average waist size of a woman now, is about 34 inches (source).

In 1950 the average life expectancy of a man was 65/66 and for a woman 71 (source). The life expectancy for Americans is (for 2009) 78 (source).

So, despite that fact that more American's are obese than ever, and this is bad for our health, yadda yadda yadda we are still living longer.

I can list on one hand the people who are worried about my health. Other overweight people? Want to weigh in on this? How many people actually give a damn about your health?

The truth is that people don't actually care about the fat person's health, they just want them to look good. This is right up there with people refusing to vote for presidents who have face hair or are ugly.

I don't see any threads about the 50 million Americans who are underweight - and not anorexic (source). An underweight person is at risk for infertility, osteoporosis, type 1 diabetes, anemia, and immune system deficiencies (source). Not to mention what malnourishment does to your teeth, skin, and hair.

I'd say that often there's a visual bias informing these discussions, but it's not all that's going on.

It is a real problem and it's interconnected with real problems related to it.

I'm a food crusader of sorts, and I just think it's crap that only a few of us have access to and value food that's better for us and the world, that MD's are often as ignorant of how to eat well as the next asshole you could ask in the waiting room.

Food is chemistry. There's no getting around that. It's no different than taking a drug or exposing yourself to radiation. You can't build your cellular self out of a series of wrong things, whether you're opting for them or have no other choice, or have such limited choices, or don't even know.

That people have their lives so limited, controlled by work and subsistence, and that their *realistic* options are suck-ass is not OK. The big gap in the numbers is not OK. This is a class and access issue for me.

 

[Netzach]

that there is any other epidemic or trend in this country that is a greater cause for concern in terms of economics and citizens' health?

Excuse me?

The rich people got AIDS drugs and now I guess that's over. Morphing flu. That's cool.

And what's with acting like every single person with cancer must be overweight? Environmental factors in cancer? Fuck, perish the thought, it's got to be because you had a fat ass!

That's a super distraction from investigating that whole issue.

How about the assholes I have to be on the phone with for 86 hours who still won't tell me what they think I owe them for work done 3 years ago? Raise your hand if your insurance coverage is easy to deal with, IF you have it.

Insurance. Access. Let's figure out the actuarial data when there aren't so many millions of us working our asses off an uninsured.

 

[graceanne]

so yeah, that is what gets to me...the big picture. the monster change in society. the way that all signs indicate it will only get worse. i don't care how people look, and i don't care about health insurance costs. it matters to me as a part of the global community and specifically as a resident of the western world.

I can go for that.

I'd say that often there's a visual bias informing these discussions, but it's not all that's going on.

It is a real problem and it's interconnected with real problems related to it.

I'm a food crusader of sorts, and I just think it's crap that only a few of us have access to and value food that's better for us and the world, that MD's are often as ignorant of how to eat well as the next asshole you could ask in the waiting room.

Food is chemistry. There's no getting around that. It's no different than taking a drug or exposing yourself to radiation. You can't build your cellular self out of a series of wrong things, whether you're opting for them or have no other choice, or have such limited choices, or don't even know.

That people have their lives so limited, controlled by work and subsistence, and that their *realistic* options are suck-ass is not OK. The big gap in the numbers is not OK. This is a class and access issue for me.

You know we agree on the whole food thing. People with crohns disease learn more about food than they wanted to know.

 

[JMohegan]

Just to clarify, while I went on a tear or two about the uselessness of BMI as an actual indicator of health, I have no argument with the simple fact that a rising trend towards obesity is generally bad for all and sundry.

The problem I have with the concept is that BMI is so inaccurate and loose that it can pad the numbers in a way to set the statistics how the WHO wants them. I'm not saying there's no more fat folk today than twenty years ago. I'm just saying that BMI allows remarkably healthy people to be lumped into "obese" and "overweight" just because they have more muscle than Joe Sixpack.

Hell, JM, if you were like most college football players, your BMI was very likely to be in the overweight range when you were playing college ball. Most linemen probably fit the obese range (some are, I'm sure, but most that I've seen are just heavy framed guys with a lot of muscle).

So no arguments on the idea that the trend is bad. Just an argument that BMI data is specious and too vague.

The linemen I played with all struggled like hell with weight issues, post college. They went from regular workouts & training (with massive food intake to maintain bulk), to relatively sedentary jobs and lifestyles just like everybody else.

Some adjusted well, others saw muscle turn to fat and expanded year after year. One of my closest friends ate himself into debilitating obesity and life-threatening heart disease.

As QB, I was never as muscular as most guys on the team. I am fortunate in that I love running, biking, and ball games of all kinds, don't mind inclement weather and have great knees. I have been lean and muscular for my entire adult life. On Winston's scale, I am in the "normal" range.

I agree with you that body builders and some collegiate or professional athletes may be labeled obese per BMI, when that's clearly not the case. However, most people don't fit those categories. I'm not sure why the WHO would want to pad the statistics, but I'm definitely open to review of alternate data.

Bottom line, though - we agree on the sentence bold, and that's what's ultimately at the root of this discussion.

 

[Netzach]

as i stated before, what concerns me most are the widespread social trends...like, how in the U.S. it's now considered normal to be overweight. or how those who are overweight tend to become obese and those who are obese tend to become morbidly obese and i've already said my piece on the "super" morbidly obese. it's like, is there just no turning back?

it's disturbing to me how many folks nowadays have type II diabetes, especially how many of those folks are kids under 12. it's disturbing to me that Phys Ed. has been cut out of most public school programs in the U.S. it's disturbing that so many 8 and 9 y.o. girls have started menses. it's disturbing to me that movie theaters and airplanes have to be reconfigured in order to accommodate the very significant number of people who are too large for standard seating. it is disturbing to me that hospitals have to weigh people on laundry scales and have to bolt toilet seats to the wall.

it is IMMENSELY disturbing to me that there is a fast food joint around every corner. it ANGERS me that fresh, quality meat and produce are just plain unaffordable to the folks who need it the most. it ANGERS me that preventative health care and education are totally nonexistent in this country. it burns my britches that global westernization has caused obesity to be an issue in countries who never previously conceived of such a thing.

so yeah, that is what gets to me...the big picture. the monster change in society. the way that all signs indicate it will only get worse. i don't care how people look, and i don't care about health insurance costs. it matters to me as a part of the global community and specifically as a resident of the western world.

I could not have said this better, esp. the closer.

 

[JMohegan]

I didn't find your statistic, because I'm not arguing your findings. I don't claim that we're not costing money. I'm claiming that you could care less that we're unhealthy, that you just don't like how we look.

And if you don't like my source, find me a site that says otherwise.

I don't participate in discussions with people who insult me personally.

Fuck off.

 

[JMohegan]

Excuse me?

The rich people got AIDS drugs and now I guess that's over. Morphing flu. That's cool.

And what's with acting like every single person with cancer must be overweight? Environmental factors in cancer? Fuck, perish the thought, it's got to be because you had a fat ass!

That's a super distraction from investigating that whole issue.

How about the assholes I have to be on the phone with for 86 hours who still won't tell me what they think I owe them for work done 3 years ago? Raise your hand if your insurance coverage is easy to deal with, IF you have it.

Insurance. Access. Let's figure out the actuarial data when there aren't so many millions of us working our asses off an uninsured.

Excuse you, what?

Nobody said those weren't valid issues. Did you really not understand the entirety of my post?

 

[ownedsubgal]

I'd say that often there's a visual bias informing these discussions, but it's not all that's going on.

It is a real problem and it's interconnected with real problems related to it.

I'm a food crusader of sorts, and I just think it's crap that only a few of us have access to and value food that's better for us and the world, that MD's are often as ignorant of how to eat well as the next asshole you could ask in the waiting room.

Food is chemistry. There's no getting around that. It's no different than taking a drug or exposing yourself to radiation. You can't build your cellular self out of a series of wrong things, whether you're opting for them or have no other choice, or have such limited choices, or don't even know.

That people have their lives so limited, controlled by work and subsistence, and that their *realistic* options are suck-ass is not OK. The big gap in the numbers is not OK. This is a class and access issue for me.

Netz, you will just love this: remember ol' Ken Brumley? well the documentary ended in theory on a high note...he lost an enormous amount of weight, was setting goals for himself and actively working towards them (like standing, walking, etc.), had become accustomed to a healthy and balanced diet. but, the cameras peek into the folks at home...his partner of 7 years (as an aside, 7 yrs ago was supposedly the point at which his weight became out of control...big coinky-dink i'm sure!), his 4 bio. kids, a stepkid and a newborn granddaughter. cut to Ken's daughter feeding her 9 MONTH OLD BABY a wendy's cheeseburger. i kid you not. no eyebrows raised, no shock and awes, just matter of fact/baby's hungry so give her some lard and overprocessed beef and cheese-product on a bun. yeah, sorry but Ken's screwed.

the sad reality is that there is a huge portion of americans who would find nothing strange, shocking or sickening about that at all.

 

[Netzach]

As a side note, my personal dictionary:

obese - overweight and ugly
fat - overweight and/but good looking

I need a word for skinny gross people who are under the delusion that they're hot and run around NYC in their underwear.

 

[Netzach]

Netz, you will just love this: remember ol' Ken Brumley? well the documentary ended in theory on a high note...he lost an enormous amount of weight, was setting goals for himself and actively working towards them (like standing, walking, etc.), had become accustomed to a healthy and balanced diet. but, the cameras peek into the folks at home...his partner of 7 years (as an aside, 7 yrs ago was supposedly the point at which his weight became out of control...big coinky-dink i'm sure!), his 4 bio. kids, a stepkid and a newborn granddaughter. cut to Ken's daughter feeding her 9 MONTH OLD BABY a wendy's cheeseburger. i kid you not. no eyebrows raised, no shock and awes, just matter of fact/baby's hungry so give her some lard and overprocessed beef and cheese-product on a bun. yeah, sorry but Ken's screwed.

the sad reality is that there is a huge portion of americans who would find nothing strange, shocking or sickening about that at all.

Oh man. Man oh man. It's like giving the kid a cigarette.

I had my share of McD's - maybe once every two weeks. I'm not saying never, though never is probably good - but you don't start it out at 9 mos. 9 mos they're navigating peas FFS!

 

[Netzach]

Excuse you, what?

Nobody said those weren't valid issues. Did you really not understand the entirety of my post?

I do, but you lost me at "The single most important issue facing our health"

There's a mountain of issues facing our health. I don't think prioritization is possible when you get to the top 5 or so.

And I maintain, that this topic is a great way for the media to deflect attention off of environmental causes of cancer. Do the math on why.

 

[Netzach]

Just to clarify, while I went on a tear or two about the uselessness of BMI as an actual indicator of health, I have no argument with the simple fact that a rising trend towards obesity is generally bad for all and sundry.

The problem I have with the concept is that BMI is so inaccurate and loose that it can pad the numbers in a way to set the statistics how the WHO wants them. I'm not saying there's no more fat folk today than twenty years ago. I'm just saying that BMI allows remarkably healthy people to be lumped into "obese" and "overweight" just because they have more muscle than Joe Sixpack.

Hell, JM, if you were like most college football players, your BMI was very likely to be in the overweight range when you were playing college ball. Most linemen probably fit the obese range (some are, I'm sure, but most that I've seen are just heavy framed guys with a lot of muscle).

So no arguments on the idea that the trend is bad. Just an argument that BMI data is specious and too vague.

It is definitely a flawed tool when you start dealing with anyone who has altered their body shape toward a lot of muscle. The shorter you are, the sillier it gets.
T is a short dude with a small frame who has spent a very athletic life. Your organs even fall off the bell curve sometimes - one cardio was freaking over an enlarged heart and a more expert one said "well you have a seventeen inch neck. I'm not worried."

 

[JMohegan]

I've got a question for those who keep asserting that the WHO and CDC don't know what the hell they're talking about when they make BMI proclamations, or those who keep pointing out that drug addicts, underweight persons, etc. have health problems too.

Do you have access to studies or data, from credible sources, asserting that American weight increases are *not* cause for economic or national health concern, or, that there is any other epidemic or trend in this country that is a greater cause for concern in terms of economics and citizens' health?

I do, but you lost me at "The single most important issue facing our health"

There's a mountain of issues facing our health. I don't think prioritization is possible when you get to the top 5 or so.

And I maintain, that this topic is a great way for the media to deflect attention off of environmental causes of cancer. Do the math on why.

That was a straight question, inviting people into a discussion based on economics, not anecdotal observation or emotional defensiveness.

 

[Homburg]

The linemen I played with all struggled like hell with weight issues, post college. They went from regular workouts & training (with massive food intake to maintain bulk), to relatively sedentary jobs and lifestyles just like everybody else.

Some adjusted well, others saw muscle turn to fat and expanded year after year. One of my closest friends ate himself into debilitating obesity and life-threatening heart disease.

I've seen the same thing with people getting out of the military at relatively young ages. They go from being in great physical shape to shambling wrecks by 30.

I agree with you that body builders and some collegiate or professional athletes may be labeled obese per BMI, when that's clearly not the case. However, most people don't fit those categories. I'm not sure why the WHO would want to pad the statistics, but I'm definitely open to review of alternate data.

Eh, I chose the WHO out of the air. I'm not accusing them of actually padding anything, just saying that the statistic is a horribly loose one, and thus manipulable. Body fat percentage would be a vastly better choice, but is also much more complex, and less commonly done. We're not likely to see better studies done on large populations.

Bottom line, though - we agree on the sentence bold, and that's what's ultimately at the root of this discussion.

*nod*

Here's a question though. This trend is comparatively recent, aye? Is there any correlation between the increase in obesity and the food industry's increased usage of various steroid and growth hormone style additives in animal feed?

Riffing off of OSG's mention of menses happening younger and younger, I did read about a study that discussed the widespread incidence of increased exogenous sex hormones in the environment. It cited both an increase in the use in animal feed (milk being particularly common carrier), and the release from various plastics used in food containers.

It makes me wonder if a solid portion of this trend could be related to hormone usage on factory farms.