A serious (!) question about language

[Icingsugar]

Our favourite fish said in the New Poems thread: "I find it all the more amazing when poets like Ice and his lady Lin, not to mention SJ or the Portu-Princess, write so well in a non-native language."

This got me thinking. What does it mean to y'all that you write in your native tongue or not? For me, I actually think that it helps me write better to use the English language instead of the one I use when I normally talk and think.

When I write English poetry I thorougly enjoy the exploration of the language on an entirely different level than when I write Swedish ditto. I also think just as much about how words and prases sounds as what they mean. In fact, that's often closer to me when I write, and i gladly use phrases and grammar that I'm not 100% sure is correct, just because the melody of them fits the poem. "Illucid" from my latest poem is one of those that I first wrote, and then checked up in a dictionaty to see if it meant what I thought it did. And I wasn't too far off...that time.

What are your experiences with this? Isanyone else here multilingual in their poetry writing? (I know you are, I've seen gaddamm French poems on this board even ) And do you then approach the task differently in different languages?

/Ice - trilingual poet

 

[Senna Jawa]

I've written hundreds of poems in Polish and English (first in Polish, then for years I had more in English than in Polish, now it is about even) but only a few in Russian (should I switch to Russian? ).

Possibly at another time I will write about my poelingy experience but for now let me offer:

                my strict stepmother

(at one time this poem, here on Literotica, had a nice format, but later Literotica has messed it up)!

 

[Cordelia]

I speak spanish fluently, so I tried this out:

aprendo a bailar

with the goal of trying to use another language to spice up the English. I had hoped to convey the message, whether one knew spanish or not.

Lauren wrote a great one in two languages as well, which (in my opinion) does a better job than mine.

Último Beijo

Definitely check hers out. It is outstanding!


Cordelia

 

[Senna Jawa]

I speak spanish fluently, so I tried this out:

aprendo a bailar

with the goal of trying to use another language to spice up the English. I had hoped to convey the message, whether one knew spanish or not.

Lauren wrote a great one in two languages as well, which (in my opinion) does a better job than mine.

Último Beijo

Definitely check hers out. It is outstanding!


Cordelia

Interesting. I'll have to get myself a Spanish dictio (mine are 3000 miles or 5000km away from me). Over years I've written a few poems which are partly in Polish, partly in English (and some my Polish poems have Russian accents).

For a short time, when I was intensive about poetry, I was writing poems (just a few) simultaneously in English and Polish. Sounds strange but that's how it was, I was not translating.

 

[Softlead]

I don't know how to add a quote like you all do but what you said Ice, and I quote you "I also think just as much about how words and prases sounds as what they mean" is what it's all about, I AGREE. There's spelling, then there's the words one uses, then there's putting the words together to say something. One's got to look at the whole picture to see it's flavor not look at it with a magnifying glass. With a magnifying glass anyone can find cracks in the Statue of Liberty. I hope one has the freedom to write in any language he/she feels the need to write in. I'll try to understand it.

Well said /Ice

Softlead

 

[*Catbabe*]

I speak spanish fluently, so I tried this out:

aprendo a bailar

with the goal of trying to use another language to spice up the English. I had hoped to convey the message, whether one knew spanish or not.

Lauren wrote a great one in two languages as well, which (in my opinion) does a better job than mine.

Último Beijo

Definitely check hers out. It is outstanding!


Cordelia

Both were very interesting and they sparked my interest. I might need to see how badly I could mess one of those up

 

[Senna Jawa]

How to quote -- an extensive instruction

I don't know how to add a quote

Under any post on this board (say, under your post or under this one) you should see six "buttons":

    profile pm search buddy       edit quote

Click on the right one, "quote", and you're in business.
Actually, have fun, click on all of them (one at the time ).

Regards,

 

[Icingsugar]

For a short time, when I was intensive about poetry, I was writing poems (just a few) simultaneously in English and Polish. Sounds strange but that's how it was, I was not translating.

Do you mean line by line (or stanza by stanza/word by word...)? There's a notion. I think I'll have to try that (no, not in Polish) someday. Maybe I should start writitng two with the same intention, but see where different language lead me. It would be interresting to see how (if) the same ambition developed the text differently.

 

[McKenna]

.

 

[Senna Jawa]

It's been a couple of years since I wrote the Haiku, [...]

Hey, for the time being post your old haiku (in English, please ) even before you write and post the new ones.

Regards,

 

[Senna Jawa]

Do you mean line by line (or stanza by stanza/word by word...)?

Basically, first I had my poem, then I would write it in any of the two languages, then in the other (sometimes more in parallel, a piece in one language, then in the other, then another piece in whichever one. I had the poem first. Without words. Since I was in high gear, writing down the existing (but wordless yet) poem was almost a formality, frosting on the cake.

 

[jthserra]

Was IS lost in translation??

Forgive me for kind of twisting off the main point in this thread, but I want to ask about writing in two languages and about translation. As an avid reader of Neruda, Lorca, Paz, and more recently Szymborksa I often pause and wonder if the poetry that I revel in is the all the poet's work, or the translator's. The Neruda and Lorca books I have include both versions of the poem, the Spanish on one page and the English on the facing page. At times, it's as if I am taunted... since I am unable to read both languages, the spanish version reminds me that I am not reading the "real" poem, but a reasonable fascimile.

I get this feeling with all translations, but especially with Spanish, which is such a lyrical language, listen to the songs written and performed in Spanish... I can't understand a word, but the pure beauty of it all is astonishing.

I quess what I want to ask of Icing and Senna, and another multi-lingual poets here is that when or if you write a poem in more than one language, how close do they come to matching what you really are saying?

And if you multi-lingual poets will indulge me a bit more, in poetry translation is it better for the translator to be a poet, or does the fact that a poet is translating, does the translator's poetic sensibilities perhaps alter what they are translating?

Again, forgive me for twisting the original intent of this thread, but the language issue is something I have been struggling with for some time.

jim

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I think that most of the poems I write in Portuguese can't be effectively translated to English. I try to do it sometimes, but a lot is lost in the translation, so I end up rewriting the poem in English, probably what Senna was refering to, and often it takes off on a different direction. The approach, at least, has to be different.

I believe that if you are simply trying to translate a poem, without truly getting in its skin and being unafraid to change it, you'll rarely get a piece that will make justice to the original. The translator needs to have a special sensibility to know how far he or she can go, but some degree of liberty must be allowed.

Here is a poem by probably the greatest Portuguese poet of all times, Fernando Pessoa, along with fifteen different English translations. If you read all of them, you might get a glimpse of what this poem is about, but I have never found one that truly lived up to it.

 

[McKenna]

.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Actually, a while ago I was searching for truly erotic haiku in the5-7-5 format. I'd like to see someone evoke eroitcism within such a tight set of guidelines. Challenge, anyone?

In Japanese?

 

[jthserra]

Erotic Haiku...

One of the most erotic poems I have read was a haiku. Written in Japanese by Katsura Nobuko and translated to English by Makoto Ueda:


beyond the dark
where I disrobe
an iris in bloom


When reading translated haiku, I ignore syllable count, because the language is so different from English. The three lines become unimportant too when you consider that many haiku are written in Japanese in one line, often a vertical line. What we break into lines are often breaks or pauses in the rhythm or language of the haiku.

When I write haiku, erotic or otherwise I try to write in something less than 17 lines in an attempt to more closely match the timing and length of the Japanese haiku. While I normally work towards a 3-5-3 form, I will break from that form if the phrasing of the haiku works better. And also, while I work towards a three line haiku, English haiku in one, two, three and more lines also work.


light lingers
in iris blossoms
her fragrance

that one inspired by the much better haiku above.

or perhaps even shorter...


in moonlight
the curve of her breast


jim

 

[Icingsugar]

Re: Was IS lost in translation??

I quess what I want to ask of Icing and Senna, and another multi-lingual poets here is that when or if you write a poem in more than one language, how close do they come to matching what you really are saying?

Well, for me it depends on the poem. Some poems are, like Senna described, already wordless ideas and events, and the words are just the wrapping, while other poems are so closely interlocked with the language they are written in that I could not possibly separate the two. Those latter ones would only come off as disasterous if translated straight on. They are based on the melody of each language, just as much as on the emotion or reaction that I wanted to evoke, or message I wanted to get through.

And if you multi-lingual poets will indulge me a bit more, in poetry translation is it better for the translator to be a poet, or does the fact that a poet is translating, does the translator's poetic sensibilities perhaps alter what they are translating?

A friend of mine once described poerty like this: "Prose is about using language to describe events that invokes emotions in the reader. Poetry is about using language to invoke those responses directly." I'd say he was pretty much on the money IMO. And as such, it is important that the translator has the deepest possible understanding of the poet's intent.

A novel is easier to translate, since it is based on the telling of a story, and the reactions are triggered from the unfolding of the plot (although many authors use different kinds of poetic language to further enhance the reading experience).

A translation will never be more than an intepretation of a poem. I rather see that intepretations are being made by someone who knows how to express himself, and evoke reactions and create moods similar to the ones aimed for in the original writing.

 

[Senna Jawa]

Ice, what a thread!

It's good that your title for this thread is so non-committal. All these new questions fit under a common roof. There is more than enough of them for the entire new 2004 year. Happy New Year everybody!

 

[jthserra]

Lauren... Icing... thank you

Lauren,

thank you for your reply and for the link you provided. The link showed so very clearly something that I did fear. Obviously the amount of translation you could get from a poem will vary with each poem, but wow, 13 very different translations. The link emphasizes what I had feared... When I read Neruda, et al. I am reading a fascimile of a poem, the quality and accuracy of that fascimile is entirely dependent upon the translator. It is kind of heartbreaking to enjoy those words so much and yet know that I am missing so much.


Icing,

thank you also for your insight, I am envious of your multilingual ability, and am even more impressed with your English language poetry knowing that English is a second language for you.


jim

 

[Senna Jawa]

Senna, translating the haiku to English causes it to loose its format, (number of syllables per line.) I think haiku like this is nearly impossible to translate and maintain the guidelines of haiku.

But because you asked for the English, I'll give it; I'll post the Dutch as well as it makes more sense syllable-wise in Dutch.

Dawn
the sun
through the window
shines bright and clear
Good morning!


Dageraad
de zon
door mijn raam
schijnt fel en helder
Goedemorgen!

Here are some variations, just for fun:


    the sun through the window
    -- good morning!


===============================


    the sun jumped above the horizon
    and into the room
    -- good morning!



Best regards and Happy New Year,

 

[McKenna]

.

 

[Rybka]

. . .


    the sun jumped above the horizon
    and into the room
    -- good morning!
. . .

For shame, Senna! You know that the sun doesn't jump above the horizon! The horizon falls beneath the sun!

Regards, Rybka

 

[Senna Jawa]

Senna, I'm not interested in revising the haiku, I posted it because you asked to see it.

I am sorry. I edited out the offending comment, leaving the variations only.
I can remove them too if you wish (and this very comment too, and you may remove any traces of my misbehaving as well--it's up to you).

I'm also not certain the revisions you posted would be considered haiku.

Well, it is as much as possible, with the given image. Sun + morning + room is perhaps a little too little for haiku, image wise. But I am getting into troubled waters again.

Regards,

 

[McKenna]

.

 

[Senna Jawa]

For shame, Senna! You know that the sun doesn't jump above the horizon! The horizon falls beneath the sun!

Regards, Rybka

But does the sun know it?!

Regards,