A question of race

[RawHumor]

I have always felt that it takes a great amount of personal strength to admit to yourself that you want to be a slave, especially if admitting that to friends or relatives not in the scene. However, I would have to think that, for African Americans (and probably other black people, but mostly black Americans), admitting to yourself that you want to be a slave would have to take that much more courage,, due to the history in America. I can't imagine the courage it would take to come out to friends and family as a black submissive who is taking on slave status.

Does anyone have any stories that relate to this, or am I way out in left field here?

 

[Queen Bee]

I hope ownedsubgal will respond here, but if not, search for her name. She's spoken a little about this, I think.

 

[sunfox]

I suppose each person of any African American descent is different in their viewpoint of this subject, but on the whole, I'd agree, there would be a sensitivity about it.

Personally, I cannot identify with the term, and have no desire to either live as, or be called, a slave. It disturbs me deeply to even think about it, and my partner would never say it to me even in jest, no matter how serious our particular D/s is.

It's just a word, a term, in a lot of ways. But it is a word I cannot tolerate used for myself.

 

[RawHumor]

It's just a word, a term, in a lot of ways. But it is a word I cannot tolerate used for myself.

Ahhhh... that's a good point. There are a lot of semantics involved in bdsm (meaning one person's definition of a "sub" might be more along the lines of another's definition of a "slave" and so on), and I guess this would be one more twist in that.

Thank you for the input.

Before anyone asks, I don't have a "good" reason for asking this question, it's just one of the types of questions that pop into my head in the middle of the night that make me ponder...

 

[RawHumor]

I hope ownedsubgal will respond here, but if not, search for her name. She's spoken a little about this, I think.

I think the name sounds familiar - thanks.

 

[RawHumor]

There are a lot of semantics involved in bdsm (meaning one person's definition of a "sub" might be more along the lines of another's definition of a "slave" and so on)

Ahhhh... as if on cue:

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?threadid=243854

 

[ownedsubgal]

well, i hope that i am not the only black american slave on this board, but as that is a high possibility, i'll throw in my two cents. yes, there is a sensitivity about being black, american, and submissive....and you can just multiply that sensitivity by about one thousand when you say you are black, submissive, and a slave. black peers, friends, or family wonder, why?? or rather, what in heck is wrong with you?? they assume you have some sort of mental disorder, that you need to seek psychiatric help, a.s.a.p. after all, our people were once forced to be owned property..so why would you, how COULD you, actually CHOOSE such a life? i have yet to meet a black person outside of the lifestyle who "got it". who didn't see something wrong with a black person being submissive, much less being a slave.

otoh, i find the perception to be quite different when it comes to black Dominants, particularly black Dominant women. it's considered somewhat of a badge of honor in this country for a black female to be strong, controlling, indepedent, even domineering. overcoming and taking back power from the "massa" of old. for this reason, it's often assumed that a black female in the lifestyle is a Dominant. very few can even fathom the idea of a black submissive/slave it seems.

 

[Netzach]

Leather

No, Leather and D/s aren't synonymous...

but there are people of color in the leather world, many of them luminaries, and the myth that black people don't do SM is long overdue for some revision, I have too many good friends and play partners who thought they were "the only one." or, in our circles, still are. I hesitate to speak for anyone, but a beautiful black/native american switch in my life makes this an issue dear to me.

throwing out a few links...


leather fetish of all colors


this one is a more D/s oriented site
a kinked community of color personals site especially neat is the "featured members" section, worth looking at, a lot of people making interesting contributions to the community....

 

[sunfox]

well, i hope that i am not the only black american slave on this board, but as that is a high possibility, i'll throw in my two cents. yes, there is a sensitivity about being black, american, and submissive....and you can just multiply that sensitivity by about one thousand when you say you are black, submissive, and a slave. black peers, friends, or family wonder, why?? or rather, what in heck is wrong with you?? they assume you have some sort of mental disorder, that you need to seek psychiatric help, a.s.a.p. after all, our people were once forced to be owned property..so why would you, how COULD you, actually CHOOSE such a life? i have yet to meet a black person outside of the lifestyle who "got it". who didn't see something wrong with a black person being submissive, much less being a slave.

otoh, i find the perception to be quite different when it comes to black Dominants, particularly black Dominant women. it's considered somewhat of a badge of honor in this country for a black female to be strong, controlling, indepedent, even domineering. overcoming and taking back power from the "massa" of old. for this reason, it's often assumed that a black female in the lifestyle is a Dominant. very few can even fathom the idea of a black submissive/slave it seems.

I don't know if I'd say there's anything uncomfortable about being black and submissive. I find nothing difficult about the fact that I am submissive, personally.

My issue is with the terminology of slave, for the most part. Even were I in what I could term a Master/slave relationship... I would not be comfortable being addressed with that nomenclature. Ever.

Every person is different though, and I don't have a problem with any other people of African descent who are comfortable with the label of slave. It's just not for me.

 

[Marquis]

*Ignorant comment alert*

I just want to say that being black (well, half-black) and dominating white women is absolutely the shit.

Ok, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Interesting concept, and I realise it is focused on the Afro-American slave issue particularly because the majority of posters are American...but there is also the slavery of my own country's history which included both black and white women. The first white women who were part of the foundation of the white culture we have today mostly were slaves, some indentured servants, none were free women in the beginning, though I guess many are unaware of that fact.

It is an issue I have felt strongly about for both races, but for me, my making a choice to be slave is not supporting that mindset in that time, if anything it is taking it back and making it an empowered choice. So now our present culture supports in part the thinly disguised use of Asian women as sex slaves and property of men who hold all the power over them in my country. Little is being done to change that circumstance...seems history repeats itself, but need not control us for all time.

Catalina

 

[Limbhugger]

Well from my fish belly white perspective I have to go along the lines Catalina is taking (or as I interupt it). Why single out black people? Simply because of the recent history of black slavery in America? I don't have any issue with it I am just saying that this same inquiry could be applied to a myriad of origins.

If becoming a modern "slave" is an issue based upon historical occurances, then a Jew could certainly feel exactly the same way.

Or the Christians, or the Asians fallen to the mongul hordes, or the Turks, etc., etc.

As for OSG's statement of a strong black woman taking back power from the "massa" of old I can only shake my head. I guess maybe in some circles. But then OSG has a knack for talking on behalf of the entire country. She's done it the past. Perhaps instead of "in this country" OSG, you could substitute "in the area that I live" or "in my experience."

I just take people as they come and work with what they present. Height, weight, skin tone, hair color, and shoe style don't really matter that much to me.

 

[sunfox]

Well from my fish belly white perspective I have to go along the lines Catalina is taking (or as I interupt it). Why single out black people? Simply because of the recent history of black slavery in America? I don't have any issue with it I am just saying that this same inquiry could be applied to a myriad of origins.

If becoming a modern "slave" is an issue based upon historical occurances, then a Jew could certainly feel exactly the same way.

Or the Christians, or the Asians fallen to the mongul hordes, or the Turks, etc., etc.

As for OSG's statement of a strong black woman taking back power from the "massa" of old I can only shake my head. I guess maybe in some circles. But then OSG has a knack for talking on behalf of the entire country. She's done it the past. Perhaps instead of "in this country" OSG, you could substitute "in the area that I live" or "in my experience."

I just take people as they come and work with what they present. Height, weight, skin tone, hair color, and shoe style don't really matter that much to me.

While I agree, others have been persecuted and enslaved... that's not the point of Raw's question.

His point was about African Americans who are submissive or slaves, and how it feels to them to admit to themselves and others that they want to be slaves.

As I stated previously, it is not for me. I cannot stomach being called a slave, regardless of its suitability for my relationship to him. To me, it would be a term of hatred and a slur, period.

It's not about singling out blacks. It's about how do those of us who are African American deal with our chosen path.

 

[Limbhugger]

While I agree, others have been persecuted and enslaved... that's not the point of Raw's question.

His point was about African Americans who are submissive or slaves, and how it feels to them to admit to themselves and others that they want to be slaves.

As I stated previously, it is not for me. I cannot stomach being called a slave, regardless of its suitability for my relationship to him. To me, it would be a term of hatred and a slur, period.

It's not about singling out blacks. It's about how do those of us who are African American deal with our chosen path.

Point taken and hopefully also received.

 

[catalina_francisco]

While the original post did refer to Afro Americans, it also referred to other black races in respect to the issue of identifying as slave. I still think it can be widened to include any person, such as myself, who comes from a country which was built on the enslavement of white women in particular, who originally did not even have a hope of finding a friendly free woman who might intervene on their behalf out of empathy....there were no free women, just a country of males. Even their male counterparts were for the most part above them in that the females did and were expected to perform physical labour, both backbreaking and domestic, and also to be sexually available to both free man and indentured. They did not have a lot of choices available to them and due to their low numbers in comparison to the larger male population, had even less hope of winning any favours or mercy.

And this was barely 200 hundred years ago. The native women had to endure the burden of slavery and abuse far longer, and to this day IMO many are still treated with less than favourable concern and fairness by both the white community and government. If the term 'slave' in the context of BDSM is going to be thought to have a negative connotation because of historical events, just as BDSM is not limited to the shores of America, nor is the history of slavery....so can be seen to have relevance.

There is also the issue of white slavery (and also not limited to white races) which operates even today in some countries, and is also becoming a bigger issue to some areas of Europe at this present moment. In the countries where it has operated unhindered forever it seems, there has been little protest made by western nations despite the fact it is known many white women (from such countries) who have disappeared while traveling etc., have become fodder for these markets. It is not consensual as in our lifestyle, and does not have the same parameters and protections we all enjoy in our own societies. As much as I do not agree with non-consensual slavery, as much as I do not agree with the raging sex slave industry in both Europe and Asia, and as much as I respect the right of those who do have issues with the term 'slave' in the lifestyle, it does not limit my choices which are different in that they are made of my own free will, with informed consent and a variety of avenues of protection if ever I or any other slave requires them, and within the confines of a loving relationship. The word may be the same, but the context is worlds apart.

Catalina

 

[Etoile]

I started a thread about this exact issue a while back:
Slavery in history and today

There were some good responses in that thread.

 

[sunfox]

I started a thread about this exact issue a while back:
Slavery in history and today

There were some good responses in that thread.

I remember the thread, Etoile.. and it was indeed excellent.

And I like the tiny mini-rant at the end of your sig line, and totally agree. Gave me a laugh

 

[sunfox]

While the original post did refer to Afro Americans, it also referred to other black races in respect to the issue of identifying as slave. I still think it can be widened to include any person, such as myself, who comes from a country which was built on the enslavement of white women in particular, who originally did not even have a hope of finding a friendly free woman who might intervene on their behalf out of empathy....there were no free women, just a country of males. Even their male counterparts were for the most part above them in that the females did and were expected to perform physical labour, both backbreaking and domestic, and also to be sexually available to both free man and indentured. They did not have a lot of choices available to them and due to their low numbers in comparison to the larger male population, had even less hope of winning any favours or mercy.

And this was barely 200 hundred years ago. The native women had to endure the burden of slavery and abuse far longer, and to this day IMO many are still treated with less than favourable concern and fairness by both the white community and government. If the term 'slave' in the context of BDSM is going to be thought to have a negative connotation because of historical events, just as BDSM is not limited to the shores of America, nor is the history of slavery....so can be seen to have relevance.

There is also the issue of white slavery (and also not limited to white races) which operates even today in some countries, and is also becoming a bigger issue to some areas of Europe at this present moment. In the countries where it has operated unhindered forever it seems, there has been little protest made by western nations despite the fact it is known many white women (from such countries) who have disappeared while traveling etc., have become fodder for these markets. It is not consensual as in our lifestyle, and does not have the same parameters and protections we all enjoy in our own societies. As much as I do not agree with non-consensual slavery, as much as I do not agree with the raging sex slave industry in both Europe and Asia, and as much as I respect the right of those who do have issues with the term 'slave' in the lifestyle, it does not limit my choices which are different in that they are made of my own free will, with informed consent and a variety of avenues of protection if ever I or any other slave requires them, and within the confines of a loving relationship. The word may be the same, but the context is worlds apart.

Catalina

Again, I don't disagree that slavery was and is a problem in other countries, and it is as abhorrent there as it was here.

However, that it went on longer there than here, or vice versa, is hardly the point, and doesn't make one situation any more important than the other. Very few blacks were well treated. They were considered sub human, and families were routinely destroyed, people murdered and replaced like dogs, and women raped, their children sold. The number of people who died on slave ships or died on plantations is still not known in its entirety today. It is far from a trivial matter for me, or likely for anyone else of African American descent, wherever they live in the world today.

For you, there is no discomfort with the term. For me, there is. Not as it is used in the lifestyle. Just when used for me, personally. *shrug* It's a knee jerk reaction to a hated term that I will likely never get over, and I hardly think I should be expected to simply because slavery is outlawed now in my country.

When I was eight years old, I got into a fight with someone on the bus who called my older (and much calmer natured, obviously) brother several racially derisive terms.

I'd be more than happy to punch anyone out today as well, should they use any of them to refer to me. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Esclava]

Greetings, all!

Sunfox, to be uncomfortable with the label "slave" is one's perogative. I accept your point and - because I don't know you - assume you are of African American descent.

Let's try not to make this an issue of "my slave ancestors were more oppressed than yours." Some people are more fortunate than others in that they have friends and family that are much more tolerant of a family member wearing the, understandably distasteful, label of slave. To me personally, "slave" is no more offensive than the word "nigga" used so widely now as a term of affection and endearment (note the popular phrase used by ALL races "my nigga"). Both words mean something different to different people, I'm sure.

OSG might be the most notorious African American slave on the boards, but she is not the only one. My name is Esclava - spanish for slave - and I am owned and loved by the one I serve.

Esclava

 

[catalina_francisco]

Again, I don't disagree that slavery was and is a problem in other countries, and it is as abhorrent there as it was here.

However, that it went on longer there than here, or vice versa, is hardly the point, and doesn't make one situation any more important than the other.

This was my point....it has happened to more than African-Americans, and more than just black races, and is still happening, so to me it has nothing to do with who had it worse, longer, harsher, but does have relevance when asking the question of how history makes people feel about the useage of the term 'slave' in the lifestyle. For me I think it is about acknowledgement of all slavery, something which often seems to be suppressed. It is abhorrant where ever it happens, and though I can empathise, I also find it disturbing that there is a sense the American experience is the benchmark for all discussions on slavery. It most likely is one of the best documented worldwide, and most publicised, but is not the only one.

The Aboriginal women of Australia also had their children taken from them without their consent or valid reason, right up to present day, and though it is no longer supposed to be government policy to do so as in the past, it is still happening under various legislations. They also were raped...in fact, it was common practice to place them in open cages in 40C+ temperatures so they were available for the station hands to use when the whim took them throughout the day. They also were placed in chains and shackles, displaced from their traditional lands and food sources, beaten and murdered, watched as their families were murdered, and often had the severed head of their murdered husband tied to their bodies while they were then gang raped. Children were also routinely raped and expected to work as adults. They were displaced, forbidden to use their language, and slaughtered by hand and introduced disease all in their own land.

For me I also deal with the history of the white women who were the first to farm and populate the land, albeit against their will and in bondage of the not so pleasant kind. In the beginning they were brought there against their will, put on land with no shelter except for lean to's they had to erect from brush with their bare hands after months at sea in the hold of a ship full of dying bodies, excrement, water, rats, filth, little food or water, disease, and daily rapes. There was little or no food, for many no clothes as they had all rotted away, and no hope for most. They often were sent into the bush alone with one or more men to try and survive and clear the land...no other women to share the load, no-one to assist in childbirth. They had no freedom, no family, no free white women in the country...the nation was built on the blood of slavery literally, not an addition after settlement was established.

So just as African Americans feel passionate about this, so do I. It is part of my history and culture which unlike the American story, does not get much of an airing in our own country, not to mention the rest of the world....to this day it is still being hushed up and excused by present governments who do not want to openly acknowledge the inhumanity of it all. For this reason I find it diffficult to keep quite when told the question was about African Americans because as I see it, it was a question which was related to the term of slave in the lifestyle being disturbing or not in relation to historical slavery. That history is worldwide, historical and present day, and relates to more than one race of people, one colour. Slavery is slavery and seemingly crosses all colour boundaries IMHO...just as BDSM is practiced universally and also has no apparent colour barriers.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

Look, transatlantic slave trade is NOT a purely African-american concern, you're right.

And the holocaust is not a purely Jewish concern.

That doesn't change that the question of slavery still mainly cuts to the heart of Afro-American experience just as the Holocaust cuts to the heart of Ashkenazic Jewish experience.

We're all geographically centric to some degree. When I hear "slave" I think of it geopolitically as antebellum US slavery.

When I think of the convict dumping and political prisoners that started Australia I think of British colonialism.

 

[Etoile]

That doesn't change that the question of slavery still mainly cuts to the heart of Afro-American experience just as the Holocaust cuts to the heart of Ashkenazic Jewish experience.

Was the Holocaust really focused on Ashkenazic Jews? I don't think Hitler differentiated. I am of purely Ashkenazic Jewish descent myself, and my family history says that some of my ancestors were helped by Oskar Schindler, but I wasn't aware that it was only Ashkenazic Jews that were victimized by Hitler. My family is mostly from the areas of Poland and Russia; while I'm not an expert on Jewish history I thought there were other "flavors" of Jews in other parts of Europe.

 

[Esclava]

I know opinions are like assholes - everybody has one, and I'm no different.

IMO, this thread presented a noble attempt to solicit opinions from those of African American descent on the use of and identity with the label "slave".

Somewhere along the line, we appear to have gone down the road that asks the questions, "Why just African Americans? Is this board not inclusive enough to incorporate the other races of the world that have also suffered as slaves?"

To that, I submit that anyone with a heritage which involves slavery is going to be passionate about that history; and it affects them deeply when others toss around a cavalier attitude about it. It takes great fortitude to stand up against others when you believe you are being attacked.

I say again - Let's try not to make this an issue of "my slave ancestors were more oppressed than yours." I'm sure we can all agree that there have been many cultures persecuted as slaves and the African American experience has received an enormous amount of attention; but they have not been the only slaves in history. And, unfortunately, the effects of slavery ARE still with us to this day.

I, personally, welcome the opinions of other cultures who have had to deal with slavery in their history. This is just MY opinion, but when other opinions are desired and welcomed, it shows an open mind and strength of character that allows one to rise above the "pain" that words and labels such as "slave" can cause.

I may not have made it clear in my previous post, but I am an intelligent, educated, dignified black woman - who embraces my calling to be a slave.

Esclava

 

[justagurl1]

I don't think my point was made too clearly so no one get pissed at me

Personally I think that the whole being a slave thing could be uncomfortable for anyone to admit because of what it can imply: weakness, lack of independence, deep rooted psychological problems, bad childhood... These may have no baises in reality but only someone who actually has experiece knows this. I'm a first generation American of mixed race(mostly black). I would never really talk about that kind of thing amongst friends and family anyway 'cause I'm just an extremely private person. I can talk about sex with them just not MY sex. Suprisingly enough it never really occured to me to wonder about my attraction to the D/s lifestyle until about a year ago. I don't know if anyone realizes this but in many other countries for some insane reason men seem to have this sort of... birthright or something that means that they have to get their way because they have a penis. Partly due to my extremely stubborn & independent nature, I hated this when I was younger. I still hate it. Yet I'm extremely attracted to the sub side of the D/s relatinship. Its a paradox (as are most things). Or maybe its just some sort of weird psychological thing... Anyhow in my opinion I just don't think it has anything to do with life outside of the relationship. I think people just need to work more on seperating sex from other things. I don't know how to explain what I mean but its like... Just 'cause u enjoy chocolate chip icecream doesn't mean ur gonna put chocolate chips on everything and it doesn't mean that it has anything to do with ur job and it doesn't mean it has anything to do with anything but the fact that u like chocolate chip icecream. Its like there are some people out there who are gonna eat their icecream and enjoy it and they don't give a damn if anyone else likes it. why? cause it has nothing to do with the rest of the world. Ur sex life is ur business and if u enjoy something then what has it got to do with the fact that someone else had a bad experience with it? It makes one wonder do Jews have a problem with SnM because of the inquisition? Do witches stop using candel magick because of the burning times? I mean u like what u like and y should it have anything to do with some big issue? I like animals but I'm not a vegetarian.
Its like a word is a word and what it means is up to the individual.
Does anyone get what I mean?

 

[rosco rathbone]

well, i hope that i am not the only black american slave on this board,

You aren't.