A Question of Grammar

[TheEarl]

I'm writing several stories in the 3rd person atm. I'm inexperienced with the third person and need advice.

Is it okay grammatically the keep saying 'he' or 'she.' If there is a paragraph or two where only one character is involved, is it okay to constantly refer to that character as 'he' or 'she' or should I use his/her name every now and again?

The Earl

 

[medjay]

Read it aloud and if it sounds redundant change it. I usually repeat a name at or near the beginning of every other paragraph if I feel I need it. Usually I just rely on the reader's common sense.

 

[BigTexan]

Earl, I would consider it grammatically correct. However that may or may not be the best way to write it. My advice: Think of the reader. Is it clear and easy to read? If so then keep it. If not change it.

Unless you are writing poetry, your first duty as a writer is to get your point across, to be clear, to be understood. That should be the first and last object of your writing, because if the reader can't understand you then all the style, grammar, and plot in the world won't make the story good.

Specifically to your question, I try to put the person's name in frequently enough that there is no chance the reader will forget who I am talking about, but you don't want to over use a proper name. That sounds cluedgy and repetitive.

I hope this makes some sense

BigTexan

 

[TheEarl]

Thank you. Just wanted to see if I could get away with using 'she' all the time, because putting in her name seemed slightly redundant when there was no-one else there to get her confused with.

The Earl

 

[Route66Girl]

I agree with what the others have said so far. The problem with constantly using the "he" or "she" pronouns is that, after a while, the character is in danger of becoming subconciously viewed as a sort of general representation of their sex instead of a specific person. Using the character's name every once in a while can prevent that.

But instead of throwing it in every once in a while for good measure, here's a guideline that I follow, and it seems to work. When describing the character doing mundane things that all of us do (she walked, he sat down, etc.), use the pronouns. But when the character is doing something that is unique to their personality, use the name:

"Amanda carefully stitched the rose pattern into the embroidered pillow."

"Kyle grunted as he threw the football, which sailed at least forty yards."

The point is to reinforce what makes that character special.

Of course, if you have long passages in which the character isn't doing anything unique to their own personality, it's time to just go ahead and throw the name in randomly. Either that, or develop the character more.

 

[Natural Born Eros]

I realise that lit stories are generally too short for this to be particularly helpful, but it seems to be a common literary technique to find a variety of titles for someone, to avoid repitition without using too many pronouns.

A mundane example: (Michael Owen)
1. Michael
2. Owen
3. The Liverpool star
4. The young footballer
5. England's first-choice striker
etc, etc, etc

As I say, this may not be as viable given the limited time you have to introduce a character, but even switching between two or three names may help.

Eros

 

[Sure]

I agree. I have had my last two edited, and in both instances, it became obvious that I was using the characters' names too often. The advice to read it aloud is right on target. Sometimes you don't realize that it is redundant. That's also an area that a good editor (and I have the best) can help.

 

[TheEarl]

NBE: I see your point and I have used that technique before ,but it's difficult finding enough euphemisms. I mean you're describing a real person and your last two were rather weak. It's even more diffcult with someone who doesn't exist.

The Earl

 

[jon.hayworth]

Earl,

imho do not go for ephamisms etc, it can soon read as if there are more characters involved than the one you intended. Stick with the he / she interspersed with the real name. This avoids the terrible "I ... I ... I" syndrome that often plagues first person stories.

In writing as in many other things I am a firm believer in the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) Principle. This of course is linked to Murphy's Law - which states that If anything can go wrong, it will go wrong at the most inconvenient of moments."

If one is writing a story with a dark haired, big breasted, dominatrix called Cruella who habitually wears leather one could write the following passage.

"The leather clad woman drew the thongs of the cat'o nine tails through fingers. The dark haired woman then took a sighting swat at the submissive who she had earlier tied to the whipping post. Cruella's breasts bounced beneath her leather halter top as she swung the cat vigorously." - I have confused myself let alone the reader!

My preferred option would be. - "Cruella drew the thongs of the cat'o nine tails through her gloved fingers. She warmed up with a sighting swat at the submissive she had tied to the whipping post. When she swung the cat' vigorously the movement of her breasts could be seen beneath her leather halter top."

If this scene went on for a page or more I would probably use her name once in every paragraph, unless the paragraphs were very short.

I hope these ideas help - and do remember telling the story in the third person gives you an all seeing perspective - you can move around in time and space. See the seen and the unseen. In effect you become GOD.

jon

 

[TheEarl]

But would I be a good God with my low self-esteem? If I don't believe in myself, would that be blasphemy?

Sorry, just had to say it. Thanks for the advice all.

The Earl

 

[Un-registered]

Of course, if you have long passages in which the character isn't doing anything unique to their own personality, it's time to just go ahead and throw the name in randomly. Either that, or develop the character more.

... or just possibly ask yourself why that passage is there and what it contributes to the story?

 

[TheEarl]

... or just possibly ask yourself why that passage is there and what it contributes to the story?

Oh come on. I am: opinionated, stubborn, honest and usually very sarcastic. They would be the four characteristics I'd put into a character of me. But it doesn't mean that I'm doing one of them at all times.

There is a need for paragraphs that advance the story, rather than advance the character.

The Earl

 

[Un-registered]

Oh come on. I am: opinionated, stubborn, honest and usually very sarcastic. They would be the four characteristics I'd put into a character of me. But it doesn't mean that I'm doing one of them at all times.

There is a need for paragraphs that advance the story, rather than advance the character.

The Earl

Yes, of course there are paras that advance the story rather than the character, but I would consider those usually to be descriptive paragraphs, rather than conversation.

If conversation is needed to advance the story (eg when a first-person story protagonist needs to be told something by someone else) then a minimum of "he said, she said" is needed because it is "I" who is being told, so the other party doesn't need to be identified so much.

On a side point, I have never had much joy trying to get sarcasm over in print. How would you do it?

 

[TheEarl]

Not sure. I've never tried writing a sarcastic character. I think I'd put it mostly in asides to other people about something seen or heard, but it's very difficult to 'set up' a situation where sarcasm is natural.

I might try it though. I'm English, so sarcasm is a part of my national culture.The Earl

 

[gauchecritic]

I realise that lit stories are generally too short for this to be particularly helpful, but it seems to be a common literary technique to find a variety of titles for someone, to avoid repitition without using too many pronouns.

A mundane example: (Michael Owen)
1. Michael
2. Owen
3. The Liverpool star
4. The young footballer
5. England's first-choice striker


Eros

Good job you didn't use Emil Heskey there Eros ie;

5. England's second choice striker/winger/midfielder/defender/goalie.

Gauche

 

[Diane Marie]

Hard and fast rule. None that I know of.

In the case of one character, several paragraphs, read what you’ve written, next think of your readers, ask yourself can they be confused as to who? If so you need to use the name. I may also add that although referring to the characters name constantly can be bad, he, he, he or she, she, she over several paragraphs tends to become very boring.

I totally disagree with using several names to describe one character. Even in a short story this can be very confusing. Again think of the reader. You want them to know whom your writing about. If it’s a novel length story, most likely you’ve developed at least two main characters, along with a good number of secondary characters. Your readers need to keep tract of those characters, not always easy. Use three main characters, each with five ways to refer to them, that’s fifteen names to keep track of, totally confusing. Then add in the secondary characters, some of which well not have names forcing you to use some other way to identify them, such as the long legged stripper. One of your main characters is also long legged, see the confusion?

 

[TheEarl]

Sometimes there's no choice but to use 2ndary names. Writing a lesbian love scene in 3rd person is an utter mare; there's no way you can get away with using 'she' and you can't constantly repeat the names. I couldn't even dream of writing a lesbian 3some in 3rd person, I'd just confuse everyone.

The Earl

 

[wildsweetone]

A lesbian free-for-all, sounds like an interesting and exciting story to write.

some personal thoughts for you dear.
you're a good person. i like your writing style. you can and are improving in your writing. you ask good questions. i am glad to know you.

now, as to putting 'she' everywhere. do it. worry about if there's too many after you've finished.... or pass it this way and i'll worry about it for you.

 

[beaverhunter76]

I don't really pay to much attention to my own grammar when I write stories for here. I've gotten to a point where my first draft is about 75% gramatically correct, and I have spellcheck for the rest, but I still have some errors. With a few of my stories I'll go over it and fix what I can see, but these stories aren't about grammar. Most people just pay attention to the sex anyway.

But I know that grammar is important. After all, how many stories have I read here that are just grammar nightmares. An entire story writen in one paragraph, or an author continuously repeating a word or name. When the story is about 1 guy and 1 girl, you don't have to keep refering to their names. He and she is usually good enough.

 

[Dirt Man]

Write for the reader?

Write for the reader? What a concept! Actually, it is the authors responcibility, in the end, to edit for the reader, even if he wrote the story, book, or poem for him/her self. Of course this is only true if you wish for others to read you stuff, and don't just hide your work away in the bathroom under the rug. So how do you edit for the reader? You first do a spell, and grammar check through out the work. Then you sit down and read the entire document, (Story, poem, book, etc.) before printing, or releasing it to be published in any format whatsoever. And why should you bother doing all of this? Because you want the reader to enjoy, and get as much out of your work as you do. Right?

As Always
I Am the
Dirt Man