a question of form~

[Syndra Lynn]

The following quote and my own life have inspired a poem.

“All my life, in nameless indeterminate ways, I’d tried to complete myself with someone else-first my father, then Hugh, even Whit, and I didn’t want that anymore. I wanted to belong to myself.”
-Sue Monk Kidd (The Mermaid Chair)

I want to use the quote before the body of the poem, but not in its entirety. How do I snip it in the middle properly? Can I just cut the bit I don't want?


“All my life, in nameless indeterminate ways, I’d tried to complete myself with someone else-and I didn’t want that anymore. I wanted to belong to myself.”
-Sue Monk Kidd (The Mermaid Chair)

Or does that degrade her work in some way?

Anyone know the rules?

Syn

 

[bogusbrig]

The following quote and my own life have inspired a poem.

“All my life, in nameless indeterminate ways, I’d tried to complete myself with someone else-and I didn’t want that anymore. I wanted to belong to myself.”
-Sue Monk

Or does that degrade her work in some way?

Anyone know the rules?

Syn

I would write it so 'All my life, in nameless indeterminate ways, I’d tried to complete myself with someone else.......and I didn’t want that anymore. I wanted to belong to myself.'

I don't think you are degrading her work, I'm not sure you even have to acknowledge her words between quotes. That would depend on whether you wanted to acknowledge you are quoting someone for artistic reasons.

I can't remember who said this but I think it was Auden 'Good poets borrow. Great poets steal.'

Beethoven copied verbatim, the introduction to his 5th symphony. He was never accused of plagaurism because he created a great piece of music from it.

Maybe it is good manners to use quotation marks but stealing, I would imagine is fine. Many a great poet have stolen words and phrases.

 

[wildsweetone]

I would write it so 'All my life, in nameless indeterminate ways, I’d tried to complete myself with someone else.......and I didn’t want that anymore. I wanted to belong to myself.'

I don't think you are degrading her work, I'm not sure you even have to acknowledge her words between quotes. That would depend on whether you wanted to acknowledge you are quoting someone for artistic reasons.

I can't remember who said this but I think it was Auden 'Good poets borrow. Great poets steal.'

Beethoven copied verbatim, the introduction to his 5th symphony. He was never accused of plagaurism because he created a great piece of music from it.

Maybe it is good manners to use quotation marks but stealing, I would imagine is fine. Many a great poet have stolen words and phrases.

Sorry bogusbrig, but I just had to chuckle at this. It touches a little on another thread.

Welcome to the forum proper, good to see you here at last.

 

[PatCarrington]

I want to use the quote before the body of the poem, but not in its entirety. How do I snip it in the middle properly? Can I just cut the bit I don't want?

Syn

yes, you can.

you do it like this:

All my life, in nameless indeterminate ways, I’d tried to complete myself with someone else......and I didn’t want that anymore. I wanted to belong to myself. -Sue Monk Kidd

 

[Syndra Lynn]

Consensus~

We have a consensus then on snipping the quote. Thank you.

I beg to differ, however with BB's opinion on stealing the words of another. Naughty and verboten!

Syn

 

[PatCarrington]

We have a consensus then on snipping the quote. Thank you.

I beg to differ, however with BB's opinion on stealing the words of another. Naughty and verboten!

Syn

proper recognition of direct quotes is done all the time, especially at poem beginning as you wish to do it.

i disagree with BB's opinion also.

i don't think Auden meant "great poets steal" literally.

they steal style, and mood, and thoughts, and in their own special way make them their own.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

For the love of all that is sacred, do not use ".......". There is no such thing as "......." in any language. An ellipsis is formed, always, by three points. Not two points, not four points, not twelve points: three. In a quote, to indicate that the ellipsis is yours and not the author's, the proper notation would be:


"All my life, in nameless indeterminate ways, I'd tried to complete myself with someone else (...) and I didn't want that anymore. I wanted to belong to myself."

-Sue Monk Kidd, The Mermaid Chair​

 

[PatCarrington]

For the love of all that is sacred, do not use ".......". There is no such thing as "......." in any language. An ellipsis is formed, always, by three points. Not two points, not four points, not twelve points: three. In a quote, to indicate that the ellipsis is yours and not the author's, the proper notation would be:


"All my life, in nameless indeterminate ways, I'd tried to complete myself with someone else (...) and I didn't want that anymore. I wanted to belong to myself."

-Sue Monk Kidd, The Mermaid Chair​

wouldn't 6 ( a double ) be acceptable?

i don't have my reference books handy.

i never use them. i think they make for an ugly page.

 

[WickedEve]

I've always used [...]

 

[Syndra Lynn]

For the love of all that is sacred, do not use ".......". There is no such thing as "......." in any language. An ellipsis is formed, always, by three points. Not two points, not four points, not twelve points: three. In a quote, to indicate that the ellipsis is yours and not the author's, the proper notation would be:


"All my life, in nameless indeterminate ways, I'd tried to complete myself with someone else (...) and I didn't want that anymore. I wanted to belong to myself."

-Sue Monk Kidd, The Mermaid Chair​

Well, since poetry is sacred, and since I do have a deep and abiding love for it, I will not use "......."!

And many thanks, poet Goddess for your difinitive answer. I bow humbly to your wisdom, and thank you for taking the time to share it with us.

Blessings~

Syn

 

[Lauren Hynde]

wouldn't 6 ( a double ) be acceptable?

i don't have my reference books handy.

Why would you have a double ellipsis?

I suppose it could be acceptable if one of them was part of the original work. For example:

"Jack shrugged. 'Well... I guess the Florida gangsters got him. Afraid he'd talk.'"

turned to:

"Jack shrugged. 'Well... (...) the Florida gangsters got him. Afraid he'd talk.'"

That's still not a double ellipsis, though.

 

[PatCarrington]

Why would you have a double ellipsis?

i have no idea why, really.

i'm certain you got it right.

 

[bogusbrig]

proper recognition of direct quotes is done all the time,

i don't think Auden meant "great poets steal" literally.

I'm going to have to do some research because my memory is fuzzy on this but I'm sure I remember an interview with Auden who was talking about a specific line in one of his poems he lifted out of another writer's poem. He was unapologetic and indicated that the line had quality and would have been lost to world if he hadn't lifted it and put it in a poem of his. I'm going to have to put my nose in a couple of my poetry books. I'm sure I can find several examples of such unapologetic theft. (Damn. I know I'm going to regret this!)

Such theft of ideas is common place in the visual arts and it's only in the last twenty years or so that artists have complained. One artist complained about theft of her idea only to find that her idea preceded her birth!

I suppose you reconstruct the phrase and make it your own.

Hmm Maybe I don't find the arts so precious. We are just another generation tilling the soil.

 

[PatCarrington]

I'm going to have to do some research because my memory is fuzzy on this but I'm sure I remember an interview with Auden who was talking about a specific line in one of his poems he lifted out of another writer's poem. He was unapologetic and indicated that the line had quality and would have been lost to world if he hadn't lifted it and put it in a poem of his. I'm going to have to put my nose in a couple of my poetry books. I'm sure I can find several examples of such unapologetic theft. (Damn. I know I'm going to regret this!)


there is no doubt it has been done.

the question is, was it proper?


Such theft of ideas is common place in the visual arts and it's only in the last twenty years or so that artists have complained. One artist complained about theft of her idea only to find that her idea preceded her birth!

everything's been said. we got here too late.

I suppose you reconstruct the phrase and make it your own.

Hmm Maybe I don't find the arts so precious. We are just another generation tilling the soil.

i'm with you on that one.

i have no idea if copyright law is national ( i would suspect ) or universal ( which i would doubt ).

does anyone know?

lauren....i'm sure you know...

 

[Lauren Hynde]

i have no idea if copyright law is national ( i would suspect ) or universal ( which i would doubt ).

does anyone know?

lauren....i'm sure you know...

National laws, but there are international conventions.

 

[bogusbrig]

i have no idea if copyright law is national ( i would suspect ) or universal ( which i would doubt ).

does anyone know?

lauren....i'm sure you know...

There is a fifty year limit on copyright. I think this led the Disney corporation to make some modification to the Snow white cartoon film so it could prolong its copyright of the film.

The problem with theft of an artistic idea is precisely what you indicated. Everything has already been said. It would be difficult to prove an idea is ones own.

Is it proper? I think it is a matter of degree. You can use a quote in a way that makes it your own or you can use a quote that is so obviously someone elses. There is a philosophical debate to be had on this question.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

There is a fifty year limit on copyright.

Hm, not exactly. The Berne Convention (the most widely enforced international set of copyright laws) mandates that the period of copyright protection cover at least the life of the author plus 50 years.

 

[bogusbrig]

Hm, not exactly. The Berne Convention (the most widely enforced international set of copyright laws) mandates that the period of copyright protection cover at least the life of the author plus 50 years.

Now you mention it, that would make sense.

I can't claim any knowledge on this so I'll take my foot out of my mouth and leave it to people who know.

 

[twelveoone]

I'm going to have to do some research because my memory is fuzzy on this but I'm sure I remember an interview with Auden who was talking about a specific line in one of his poems he lifted out of another writer's poem. He was unapologetic and indicated that the line had quality and would have been lost to world if he hadn't lifted it and put it in a poem of his. I'm going to have to put my nose in a couple of my poetry books. I'm sure I can find several examples of such unapologetic theft. (Damn. I know I'm going to regret this!)

Such theft of ideas is common place in the visual arts and it's only in the last twenty years or so that artists have complained. One artist complained about theft of her idea only to find that her idea preceded her birth!

I suppose you reconstruct the phrase and make it your own.

Hmm Maybe I don't find the arts so precious. We are just another generation tilling the soil.

This probably would not be a violation of copyright, would depend on how significate a portion of the work and how good a lawyer you had. Generally would be bad form, but even then not always.