A question of age

[kskittles]

So why is it we can write and share stories about being raped, murdered, tortured, etc...but not about a 16 year-old having beautiful, consensual sex with someone who loves her truly?

I think its comical, how society deems some things okay, and others as horrible. You could mention alcohol being legal and marijuana being illegal. It's the same thing.

How can fictional stories be censored like this? It really hampers some of the ideas I'm sure everybody has. 90% of us experienced sex for the first time before turning 18. I really don't see the problem writing about it.

 

[charmingdimples]

I can understand I had a great idea for a storyline about the slow seduction of a 15- 16 year old.

 

[miwoodsman]

The child pornography laws are quite strict and overly broad. In order to protect themselves, the owners of this site have limited what can be submitted. While you can't write a story about underage sex, you can say so-and-so lost her virginity at 16; you just can't provide any details.

There are also limitations on the rape, murder, and torture stories. While I haven't submitted anything to the Non-Consent category, I do know you can't have 'rape' as one of the key words. As for murder and torture, it can't be for the sole sexual gratification of the murderer/torturer.

 

[snar]

I have no idea what the site owners' thinking is... that's their own. But, if you are talking about US law, Igreenwood, that is not the case.

I asked an attorney about this specifically. My question to him was about writing stories about rape, murder (specifically, killing for sexual pleasure) and minors. (I don't write about characters under 15 years old, but I was curious about the law, so I asked.... and I do write about 15-18).

He said that you can put just about anything in text except for an overt threat toward another person. He said that in erotic fiction there is no real victim, so you're ok. In child porn pics (to take an extreme example) that someone might download, there is a real 'victim' here -the child whose photos have been taken. In literature there is no such victim. The leading lady in Lolita is 12 and you can buy that book in Barnes & Noble.

So, my suspicion is that the owners of this site do not want to attract pedophiles (understandable) and the legal troubles such folks tend to bring with them, and that is why under age lit is not permitted. That is just a guess.

As for snuff... you got me. It's the genre I prefer... so pretty inconvenient for me.

 

[miwoodsman]

When it comes to books I agree with you, snar, but there is a different standard for the internet. There shouldn't be, but there is.

 

[kskittles]

I understand not wanting any unsavories here, but I don't understand the censorship and fright over simple ficticious words.

 

[snar]

When it comes to books I agree with you, snar, but there is a different standard for the internet. There shouldn't be, but there is.

Actually, I asked him a fair amount of specific questions including questions about Internet-based snuff/underage/etc. stories, and the same rules apply. If it makes any difference, I was asking specifically about California, where I live, but I'm pretty sure most US states have similar standards.

The thing that will really send you to jail quick is anything under age with a "victim". So, chatting up a 13 year old on Yahoo! IM, is a good way to get your ass thrown in jail.

 

[snar]

I understand not wanting any unsavories here, but I don't understand the censorship and fright over simple ficticious words.

I agree with you. I think having age/violence restrictions on an erotic site is a little silly myself, but, trying to see the other point of view for a moment... the owners probably have to play to what's popular for one (and most people do not like under-age porn) and what's the least likely to get them thrown off their hosting provider, cause legal hassles, etc.

 

[Penelope Street]

Simply put, the owners of the site own the site and thus get to make the rules. If they wanted their site to feature only science fiction tales, that would be their choice to make. Is that censorship? I don't see it as any more censorship than me not allowing someone to paint periwinkles on my front door simply because I don't want them there.

If anyone just has to know the reasoning, the only thing I can suggest it to read the all the older posts from years ago wherein the owners discussed their decisions, and draw your own conclusions. Don't bother writing and asking the site administrators, I'm sure they have better things to do than answer the same question again and again. Many of the regulars to the forum have come to feel the same way about this particular issue.

Regardless of the owners' motivation, expecting these rules to change is just not realistic. The only practical solution to this issue is accept their decision and move on; perhaps figuratively, perhaps literally. For what it's worth, I too regret that many beautiful coming-of-age stories cannot be posted here, but that's the owner's choice and I'm willing to respect their wishes.


For reference:

The hard rules are layed out here:
http://www.literotica.com/faq/05235347.shtml
and the age limit rule is:

Basically, our biggest requirement is that we do not accept any story in which characters under the age of 18 are involved in sexual situations.

Exactly what this means has been discussed in numerous threads. Too many unfortunately turn into whining about the rule, but some older ones may prove useful since Laurel responded.

From December 2001:
https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=58591
In Laurel's post, #13, she indicates she wouildn't be comfortable posting stories involving young children.

Additional clarification may be found in this thread:
https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=175666
where it says:

This (The minimum age rule) is non-negotiable and has more to do with persons like John Ashcroft than an unrealistic view that teenagers don't have sex. A character can refer sex at an early age (eg I lost my cherry at 14), but cannot describe it.

If your story comes across as pedophilia, it will probably be rejected.

Make sure that your characters are over 18 or at least a senior in high school to fix the problem.

 

[emap]

Not all states have the same laws. Some states legal sex age is 16, some it's 17 some it's 18. At one point in time 16 was a legal drinking age and driving was 18, some states may even have 18 driving age still, drinking was nationally set to 21 because some of the younger age drinking laws led to problems, especially with bordering areas.

Heck watch some of the commercials sometime, especially ones like bloodsucking lawyers calling for anyone who had this done to them, there are a couple states they can't accept clients in. Those states I am sure have stricter laws on what you can sue about. Some states have legal topless and nude areas that are not private property or clubs, other states have no legal topless areas, even in clubs.

States have different laws and there is no set limit on pretty much anything. Which is part of the problem being avoided by the age limit here, states have different laws though the federal government has a set age limit to cover things like internet.

 

[snar]

Penelope Street - I agree with you 100% that site owners featuring some content while restricting other content is not censorship. People can run website for whatever they want. Heck, just because I'm into porn doesn't mean I want to run a porn site myself. Censorship only applies to a government or other authoritive force restricting expression (so, you could loosley say a school is censoring its newspaper, but really, even that is pushing it. Censorship is really the domain of Governments, Religions and other major social / economic forces).

That said.... I disagree that the owners have "better things to do" than answer their visitors questions. If someone doesn't want to work with a web community, then the easiest way to avoid it is to not run one. Personally, I don't see the owners of this site shying away from questions (I think most of these issues are addressed on literotica.com), so I like the site and the attention the web masters give to it. If they had the attitude of "not caring" the site would never make it in the face of all of the competition that is out there. Clearly the folks here are smart and know this.

 

[kskittles]

I wasn't questioning or being critical of the site owners, but of the culture that lumps anything dealing with people under 18 together as awful and bad.

An older person taking advantage of a younger person or victimizing them is awful, yes of course.

But a story about things happening between made-up people which involves people under a certain arbitrary age just doesn't compute with me. Maybe I'm weird.

 

[snar]

That's the strange thing about erotica, though, no? Your 'awful' could be someone elses turn-on. There will never be a time when everyone agrees on what is sexy. I look at some of the incest stuff and think, 'Yuck,' but at the same time, I know some people would read my stories and say the same. It's all a matter of preference.

So.... how does this get back to our topic? Easy. It's not a question of what's morally right. Personally, I think that people making moral judgements on an erotic site is wacked (He can fuck his sister but she can't fuck her dog??.... whatever). But, the culture is what it is, and US society put the silly 18-year old age restriction in (today.... wait around.... it will change, as one of the posters astutely pointed out).

 

[Penelope Street]

Thank you, Snar, for so politely disagreeing! I always try to remind myself when this question arises that it's new to the person asking it, and I did this time too, but it still gets old and I'm afraid that showed a bit in my reply. Sorry about that.

Still, I do know how busy the administrators are, so I wouldn't bother them unless it's something more than mere curiosity. The only two times I've contact them both involved members breaking rules, and in one case, the law too.

While a limit of sixteen would allow many interesting, and realistic, first-time stories, I am happy there is a limit. When you get right down to it, all age limits are arbitrary, but I don't see any other solution that's remotely practical.

It is a different thing to discuss what about U.S. culture lead to a situation where sex in literature, and especially film, is viewed by so many as dangerous, but violence is somehow okay, which really is pretty ridiculous. And sad.

 

[Pure]

Note to snar and others about age

SNAR Penelope Street - I agree with you 100% that site owners featuring some content while restricting other content is not censorship. People can run website for whatever they want. Heck, just because I'm into porn doesn't mean I want to run a porn site myself. Censorship only applies to a government or other authoritive force restricting expression (so, you could loosley say a school is censoring its newspaper, but really, even that is pushing it. Censorship is really the domain of Governments, Religions and other major social / economic forces).

That said.... I disagree that the owners have "better things to do" than answer their visitors questions. If someone doesn't want to work with a web community, then the easiest way to avoid it is to not run one. Personally, I don't see the owners of this site shying away from questions (I think most of these issues are addressed on literotica.com), so I like the site and the attention the web masters give to it. If they had the attitude of "not caring" the site would never make it in the face of all of the competition that is out there. Clearly the folks here are smart and know this

===
That's the strange thing about erotica, though, no? Your 'awful' could be someone elses turn-on. There will never be a time when everyone agrees on what is sexy. I look at some of the incest stuff and think, 'Yuck,' but at the same time, I know some people would read my stories and say the same. It's all a matter of preference.

So.... how does this get back to our topic? Easy. It's not a question of what's morally right. Personally, I think that people making moral judgements on an erotic site is wacked (He can fuck his sister but she can't fuck her dog??.... whatever). But, the culture is what it is, and US society put the silly 18-year old age restriction in (today.... wait around.... it will change, as one of the posters astutely pointed out).

===

Snar,
You don't seem to be aware of internet related legislation, including that which was suspended by courts. May i suggest you research the matter? look at CDA (Communications Decency Act) and COPA (Childrens Online Protection Act), for example. The fact that courts eventually pulled the teeth of these laws does NOT mean things are safe, since re drafting the laws to met the SC objections is happening.

here are some links.

Communications Decency Act, (1996) and its problems.

http://www.slais.ubc.ca/COURSES/libr500/fall1999/WWW_presentations/C_Hogg/unitedstates.htm

http://www.aclu.org/privacy/speech/15605prs19980312.html

COPA (Childrens Online Protection Act) and its problems.

http://epic.org/free_speech/copa/

2008 decision against COPA

http://epic.org/free_speech/copa/ACLU_v_Mukasey.pdf




The point here isn't that the site owners can be arbitrary. Of course they can; they can have only stories of oral sex between redheads, if they please.

The point is what's called "abundance of caution." Written material involving minor sex, while widely available in hard publications, is still possibly subject to laws on the internet (I say 'possibly' since old laws definitely attempted this, and new ones are being drafted all the time, e.g. CIPA, {Children's Internet Protection Act} requiring libraries to filter certain porn.) the phrase, "harmful to minors," has come up in legislation. it has wide scope, since material showing minors fucking each other or fucking adults could be construed in this way. i'd remind you that a number of such scenarios are illegal in state law, e.g. sex between a 14 year old and a 21 year old.

so the question arises, Is depiction of illegal acts, "harmful"? the issue is far from clear, but the argument of the censors is obvious. material showing 14 year olds cavorting with mature adults, *without consequences* and without legal repercussions, arguably gives minors a bad idea. if they act on it, they will be harmed.

the owners are avoiding material that could possibly get them into legal trouble. that is a very simple point, which should not be lost.

 

[snar]

the owners are avoiding material that could possibly get them into legal trouble. that is a very simple point, which should not be lost.

Pure - You and I agree 100% on this point -I think I've been saying this all along.

My point about people making moral judgment calls over the merits of one sexual act over another, was separate. Do I think its funny that a site with an incest category can't feature a story about a sixteen year old girl having sex? Of course! Do I understand how this situation came to pass? Yes.

so the question arises, Is depiction of illegal acts, "harmful"? the issue is far from clear, but the argument of the censors is obvious. material showing 14 year olds cavorting with mature adults, *without consequences* and without legal repercussions, arguably gives minors a bad idea. if they act on it, they will be harmed.

This reminds me of a case that was in the news last year, when some idiot kids tried (or succeeded -can't remember) to commit suicide because they saw bunnies kill themselves in a cartoon. I understand the argument this side puts forward, but think it is complete rubbish. Disturbed individuals will get disturbed ideas, regardless of what they read or watch. Reasonable people can read a story about, say rape, and still be able to make a rational decision about whether or not they will actually force someone to have sex.

 

[Sunndance07]

So why is it we can write and share stories about being raped, murdered, tortured, etc...but not about a 16 year-old having beautiful, consensual sex with someone who loves her truly?

I think its comical, how society deems some things okay, and others as horrible. You could mention alcohol being legal and marijuana being illegal. It's the same thing.

How can fictional stories be censored like this? It really hampers some of the ideas I'm sure everybody has. 90% of us experienced sex for the first time before turning 18. I really don't see the problem writing about it.

The laws are the laws.....I like it all, but know legal limits.

 

[Surt]

I got a question, let's say there is a sex story between a 18 year old girl who is really underdevolped, is that allowed?

 

[cloudy]

I got a question, let's say there is a sex story between a 18 year old girl who is really underdevolped, is that allowed?

If it reads like sex with a minor, it will be rejected, no matter her stated age. If you can't live with the rules, there are plenty of sites that will accept material not accepted here.

 

[DeeZire]

If it reads like sex with a minor, it will be rejected, no matter her stated age. If you can't live with the rules, there are plenty of sites that will accept material not accepted here.

I haven't done a lot of LIT reading, but one of the first stories I saw here featured an uncle cavorting with his 18 year-old niece who was still wearing a training bra and acting like a 12 year-old. WTF? My first impression was that the story was violating LIT rules, but the letter of the law was not broken, only the intent.

Perhaps if they're using bots to screen the stories, anything can get through. Keep in mind that those kinds of stories will incur the wrath of many around here, and jeopardize the continued existence of this website.

 

[KarennaC]

DeeZire, I remember that story. My impression on reading it was the author had originally written about an uncle cavorting with a 12-year-old, then just went through and changed the age to post it here without changing anything else.

 

[CrimsonMaiden]

Not long ago, I found a story that was listed on the most favorites (or something like that). It was close to the top. Hadn't gone more than a couple of paragraphs before I encountered description of a man talking about sexual stuff he'd done as a young boy. No telling how long it had been on the site. I reported it, and it got taken down.

I think it's amazing that all of those people favorited that story and didn't report it for underage sex.

 

[Surt]

Im not into doing stories about kids having sex, i wanna get that out the way first of all. I was just asking if people have gone around these rules by say making the girl really short and with tiny tits, plus naive. Seems they have. I can live with rules just fine, it's nice knowing the FBI won't come down my door for what i do. I just would feel a hellva lot better if maybe the limit went down from 18 to 16 like it is for the rest of the world, 16's legal in some US states and in the UK. And come on let's face it, lifes down hill after 18 anyway.

 

[cloudy]

Im not into doing stories about kids having sex, i wanna get that out the way first of all. I was just asking if people have gone around these rules by say making the girl really short and with tiny tits, plus naive. Seems they have. I can live with rules just fine, it's nice knowing the FBI won't come down my door for what i do. I just would feel a hellva lot better if maybe the limit went down from 18 to 16 like it is for the rest of the world, 16's legal in some US states and in the UK.

It isn't about what's legal; it's about what Laurel and Manu want on their site.

And come on let's face it, lifes down hill after 18 anyway.

You must be very young to think this. In fact, I wonder if you're even old enough to be posting here, because let's face it, people that young really don't know very much...and it shows.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

I haven't done a lot of LIT reading, but one of the first stories I saw here featured an uncle cavorting with his 18 year-old niece who was still wearing a training bra and acting like a 12 year-old. WTF? My first impression was that the story was violating LIT rules, but the letter of the law was not broken, only the intent.

Same goes for bestiality here, which is "against the rules" but people get around the letter of the law, by having sex with the family unicorn...