A question for vegans, or those in the know.

[Liar]

I came across this news story today, and it made me wonder. Natually, the parents were idiots beyond measure, and bear full responsibility for what happened.

But is there even a hint of truth to the bolded part below? Does any kind of vegan lifestyle, even those extreme ones that only eat fallen fruit and drink rainwater or whatever, disapprove of breast milk for infants? Isn't that the most natural thing whatsoever to eat for a newborn mammal?

Edited to add: 15 seconds on Google gave me, a non parent non-vegan and completely ignorant of both, the answer that there are good soy-based breast milk replacement formulas to use. So it's definitely not a "Vegan diet will kill your kids" thing, buy a "being an idiot will kill your kids" thing.

Parents Convicted in Baby's Death
ATLANTA (AP) A Superior Court jury in Atlanta convicted a vegan couple of murder and cruelty to children Wednesday in the death of their six-week old, who was fed a diet largely consisting of soy milk and apple juice.

27-year-old Jade Sanders and 31-year-old and Lamont Thomas will receive automatic life sentences for starving the boy, who weighed just 3.5 pounds when he died.

Defense lawyers said the first-time parents did the best they could while adhering to the lifestyle of vegans, who typically use no animal products. They said Sanders and Thomas did not realize the baby, who was born at home, was in danger until minutes before he died.

But prosecutor Mike Carlson told the jury yesterday during closing arguments that they are ``baby killers.''

The jury deliberated about seven hours before returning the guilty verdicts.

 

[Guest]

They were/are idiots, vegan or not. And so was their peditrician. The infant's healthcare providers should be held accountable as well.

I'm a vegetarian, but the Missus and our 2 children are not. However, if they were they'd still be breastfed. A cow and human mother are not the same and shouldn't construed that they are by ignorant vegans. It is most natural for mother's breast milk to be given to their infants. It gives necessary nutrients and immunities.

 

[Guest]

the fact that the baby was 3.5 lbs is alarming. the normal infant weight at birth is 6-8 lbs...even if the baby were under weight when born, a loss of that much weight should have alerted SOMEONE even the parents to a problem.

they sound like they didnt have 'normal' healthcare intervention though, so maybe in their quest for purity, they didnt realize that they were harming their child until it was far too late.

who knows, we weren't there.

 

[Chantilyvamp]

ok the soy milk i have no problem with but apple juice for a 6 week old? *boggles* for one their little tummies cant handle it. Two, it tends to give some babies well a rather large laxative affect. Least all the babies that I have ever taken care of including my little one when she was old enough to have apple juice. But that could just be they havent had to take care of kids before and just didnt know.

It doesnt sound like something they have done on purpose though, then again like vella said we werent there. But their grief is probably horrific.

 

[Guest]

It doesnt sound like something they have done on purpose though, then again like vella said we werent there. But their grief is probably horrific.

exactly. i have little doubt that they believed what they were doing was in the babies best interest. most people who have extreme diets do so because they believe it is more healthy.
i can say, however, that even as inexperienced as they probably were, something should have tipped them off to a serious problem. its hard for me to believe that watching a child failing to thrive could be over looked.

 

[Chantilyvamp]

exactly. i have little doubt that they believed what they were doing was in the babies best interest. most people who have extreme diets do so because they believe it is more healthy.
i can say, however, that even as inexperienced as they probably were, something should have tipped them off to a serious problem. its hard for me to believe that watching a child failing to thrive could be over looked.

very true...3.5 pounds...*shakes head* I would have freaked had minx dropped below 5 pounds. She lost some the first few days in the hospital, but at 6 weeks to have been so little is so very sad...thats the size my 7 weeks premature nephew weighed.

 

[OhMissScarlett]

I'm guessing they used regular soy milk instead of soy formula. I was just reading a box of soy milk yesterday and it says right on there not to use as an infant formula. There are plenty of soy formulas on the market that are animal free. It sounds like they never came in contact with a pediatrician or anyone from the WIC program. It's sad. But, I remember being so paranoid when I was a new mom, that I compared every single ingredient in soy formula to the lactose based ones, just to make sure my son wasn't missing anything. I cannot imagine thinking that baby was healthy. He would've been crying all the time.

 

[3113]

WHY weren't they breastfeeding the baby? If they couldn't use formula, why not a breast pump and storing the milk for later? It boggles the mind that they wouldn't do the research or that they wouldn't suspect something wrong, wouldn't take the baby to a doctor when the weigh got that low.

Guilty, though not intentionally of murder.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

WHY weren't they breastfeeding the baby? If they couldn't use formula, why not a breast pump and storing the milk for later? It boggles the mind that they wouldn't do the research or that they wouldn't suspect something wrong, wouldn't take the baby to a doctor when the weigh got that low.

Guilty, though not intentionally of murder.

Human milk is as unacceptable to a vegan as cows' milk. Any animal product must be eschewed, which not only takes you beyond milk and eggs but includes foods like sweet biscuits.

This poor couple don't sound like the brightest birds on the twig and you do have to wonder why the support systems failed to provide a safety net.

When you tuck into your bacon and eggs can't you hear the prophet of doom saying 'soy and apple juice is better for you'?

Seems like a tragedy that might have been avoided, given a degree of help.

Poor kid, poor parents. No malice, just strange caring.

 

[Vermilion]

Human milk is as unacceptable to a vegan as cows' milk. Any animal product must be eschewed, which not only takes you beyond milk and eggs but includes foods like sweet biscuits.

This poor couple don't sound like the brightest birds on the twig and you do have to wonder why the support systems failed to provide a safety net.

When you tuck into your bacon and eggs can't you hear the prophet of doom saying 'soy and apple juice is better for you'?

Seems like a tragedy that might have been avoided, given a degree of help.

Poor kid, poor parents. No malice, just strange caring.

I can understand vegans wanting to stay clear of cow milk which is intended for baby cows, but it seems silly to deprive a human infanct of *human* milk which is intended for a *human* baby... <shrugs>
It's like a 'House' episode in series 2...
x
V

 

[Vermilion]

Heh, a friend of mine just had this to say:

I've never heard of anything so ridiculous (as the story you quoted).
The issue for many vegans is consent, and if milk is coming out of
your own tits, then you can consent to feed your baby with it.
Psychos.

x
V

 

[Boxlicker101]

The baby was born at home, and may have never been seen by a doctor. Maybe the mother couldn't produce any milk, if she was living strictly on a vegan diet. Otherwise, I can't understand not breastfeeding, because it is so natural. One would think even the strictest vegans would accept that; it seems so self-evident.

Both parents seem to be dumb as doorknobs, but I don't believe they meant any harm. Maybe manslaughter, and cruelty to children.

 

[Grushenka]

I was stunned when I went back to reread the article expecting to find that the parents were teenagers. Rather, they were "27-year-old Jade Sanders and 31-year-old and Lamont Thomas". Despite being new parents (I presume), whatever their backgrounds and present 'lifestyle', I truly do not understand how persons that age could be so careless and plainly stupid. A diet of soy milk and apple juice must have given the infant constant diahrrea, how could they not have sought medical help, or advice from someone who might have done something. What a tortured little life.

 

[3113]

Human milk is as unacceptable to a vegan as cows' milk. Any animal product must be eschewed

Are you sure? I can understand not drinking cow's milk for any variety of reasons from health to avoiding cruelty to cows, but as pointed out, babies feed on a mother's milk whatever that mother is, so why not feed an infant mother's milk?...unless the argument is to feed only on vegetable matter, but even then, it seems odd. The mother's on a Vegan diet, ergo, her milk is "vegan" too, isn't it?

I eat at a Vegan restaurant now and then, and from what I've heard and seen, most Vegans are hyper aware of what they must eat to get enough protein, vitamins, etc. to maintain their health. They're very well educated when it comes to diet. I seriously doubt that most of them would object to a vegan mom breastfeeding her baby, or that their objection to cow's milk would extend to breast milk. Afterall, if this objection was common among Vegans there's be a lot more cases like this--unless there is a valid, well-known vegan substitute for mother's milk, with all it's nutrients, etc.? But if there is, why weren't this couple using it?

This pair sounds like they're beyond stupid, they're outright crazy.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Human milk is as unacceptable to a vegan as cows' milk. Any animal product must be eschewed

I've never met a vegan who thought that way- in fact, most of the La Leche league women that I met were vegetarians, or Vegans- in the two chapters that I visited, anyway. I was the meat-eating, leather-jacket-wearing recidivist.

But really, that's preposterous. I'd say that this couple's issue wasn't that they were vegans, at all, No matter what their beliefs, they would have believed in a blind, fringe-lunatic way. They'd have found some stupid way to kill their baby.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I'm not a vegan, nor am I "in the know" so this thread isn't addressed to me. Nevertheless, I have always been under the impression that vegans are in favor of "natural" things, such as whole grains and uncooked fruits and vegetables. As far as I can see, there is nothing in the world more natural for a baby than milk from the mother's breast.

Possibly the mother was unable to produce any milk. That sometimes happens with first-time mothers. This especially seems possible if they were doing everything on their own, in-home birth, etc. I believe there are certain techniques that mothers are shown on how to breast feed successfully. That would just make them abysmally stupid and neglectful, but not murderers.

Maybe keeping them in prison so they can't produce any more children would be a Darwinian thing.

 

[rgraham666]

This pair sounds like they're beyond stupid, they're outright crazy.

That pretty much sums up my attitude on this article.

 

[3113]

That would just make them abysmally stupid and neglectful, but not murderers.

Without a doubt. I don't think anyone can argue that they deliberately set out to kill the baby. And you may be right. If the mom wasn't producing breastmilk, and if the couple had eschewed doctors, then that could account for what happened...to a point.

It isn't, afterall, just feeding the baby soymilk & apple juice on the assumption that this will suffice. It's that the parents lacked that paranoia most new parents have, the one which makes them worry about every little cough or upset. Most parents, one hopes, would at the very least start to worry and rush the baby to a hospital/doctor/healer, SOMEONE for a second opinion before the situation got to this extreme.

 

[Liar]

Human milk is as unacceptable to a vegan as cows' milk. Any animal product must be eschewed, which not only takes you beyond milk and eggs but includes foods like sweet biscuits..

Like many others here, I find this hard to believe. It would also demonize the unborn baby, who lives exclusively off sustenance from the mother.

Without a doubt. I don't think anyone can argue that they deliberately set out to kill the baby. And you may be right. If the mom wasn't producing breastmilk, and if the couple had eschewed doctors, then that could account for what happened...to a point.

I seriously doubt they had any doctors at all. If I, a total ignorant of the needs of an infant, know that a baby needs more tits than Hef, or it's equivalent formula, I can't imagine a doctor, short of doctor Mengele, who would say otherwise.

 

[3113]

I seriously doubt they had any doctors at all.

Any reputable doctors. There are crazy doctors out there--or people who pose as doctors.

 

[Danyea11e]

It sounds like complete and utter garbage to me. My fiancee is lactose intolerant and has been since birth. He was raised on soy formula as a child. They never had any kind of problems with him losing weight from it. Soy MILK and soy FORMULA are two different things. There are many good formulas out there that are soy based for kids that can't handle the normal. If one used them as you should there is no reason a child should weigh what this one did. If you're talking about soy MILK I think that's the problem. Milk and formula are two different critters. If I remember right (parents out there can correct me if I'm not) milk doesn't have in it all the baby needs and it may well have caused this problem-combined with the apple juice. Formula is designed to give babies all the nutrition they need but milk isn't. That is why they recommend you wait until later to give them milk.

 

[starrkers]

Somehow I doubt there was any human milk to be had. If they think soy milk and apple juice is suitable as baby nutrition, the mind boggles at what they consider suitable for a lactating mother.
The mother is probably not much better off nutritionally right now than the baby was.
This isn't vegan, it's lunacy.