A People's History of the Untied States
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wazhazhe
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I have not read the book but from what I have read about it, Zinn offers an alternative history to the one we were taught in school. It purports to tell the story of blacks, American Indians, women and others not usually heard from in the history books.
It sounds interesting to me.
It sounds interesting to me.
I've only just started it, but the opening was compelling, as he described Columbus's 'discovery' of the New World. He comes into the Bahamas, and the natives come out to greet them enthusiastically. He takes a few of them on board to demand to know where their gold came from. This is what he's been sent to find, gold from the Far East, and a shorter way to get there.
He has little success, but he has to sail home, and tell them something to explain all the money he spent on the trip. So he tells them he's found all the gold, and all the slaves they could ever want. The boss sends him back with dozens of ships this time. He can't find the gold, so he loads the ships with Indian slaves, most of whom die on the trip.
It begins a savage onslaught of European wealthy performing genocide on the native culture. In the end, there were zero left.
It's a useful idea, to examine history not just from the eyes of the wealthy who write the history books, but also to examine the perspective of the peoples who were on the other side of our civilizing of the world.
Has anyone read the book?
He has little success, but he has to sail home, and tell them something to explain all the money he spent on the trip. So he tells them he's found all the gold, and all the slaves they could ever want. The boss sends him back with dozens of ships this time. He can't find the gold, so he loads the ships with Indian slaves, most of whom die on the trip.
It begins a savage onslaught of European wealthy performing genocide on the native culture. In the end, there were zero left.
It's a useful idea, to examine history not just from the eyes of the wealthy who write the history books, but also to examine the perspective of the peoples who were on the other side of our civilizing of the world.
Has anyone read the book?
rgraham666
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kendo1 said:amicus
He who must not be named.
There are a few threads started by him on the front page.
Cloudy and him have a kind of love hate relationship.
(another black and white!)
He's white, she's our tame redskin. (kinda tame, anyways)
Alas poor kendo. I knew him, Horatio.
R. Richard
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Kandi said:
I have not read the book. However, I do know that Colombus was one of the all time worst administrators. At one point he was sent back to Spain in chains for nasty deeds he had done in the new world.
cloudy
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Kandi said:
The extinction of the Taino can be laid strictly at the feet of Columbus. They welcomed him, and he killed them for it.
I read somewhere a line that's stayed with me forever: "If I could go back in time, I would put a huge neon sign next to the Bahamas that reads "WRONG WAY TO DELHI."
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to you, kendo. 
Roxanne Appleby
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It's good to consider alternative perspectives, and be open to the idea that the sacred cows you were raised with aren't as sacred as they were made out to be.
Marx's historical materialism is also a useful concept. It holds that the economic base of society is the real foundation of its political structures and ideologies. In Marx's words: "The mode of production of material life conditions the general process of social, political and intellectual life. It is not the consciousness of men that determines their existence, but their social existence that determines their consciousness."
There is much to be said for this point of view, but most Marxists, including Zinn, take it too far. They (and he) promote what is essentially a deterministic view. Self interest is everything and explains everything; ideas and ideological principles are but justifications added after the fact.
This ignores the fact that humans are capable of making choices, they have imaginations, and they usually define their self interest not in an atomistcally individualistic way but much more broadly, as that which is good for my family, my posterity, and given the latter, necessarily what is good for my community, nation and civilization.
As you read Zinn you will come to notice a tedious repetitiveness in the way all events are interpreted in a most grubby, narrowly self interested manner. One should certainly never lose sight of this aspect of the human experience. But it is a mistake to ignore the reality that we are capable of seeing beyond that narrow perspective, and pursuing purposes beyond that. The admixture of human motives is immensely complex, and simplistic interpretations of it are fraught with the likelihood of error, whether the conclusion is pure selfishness or pure high principle.
Marx's historical materialism is also a useful concept. It holds that the economic base of society is the real foundation of its political structures and ideologies. In Marx's words: "The mode of production of material life conditions the general process of social, political and intellectual life. It is not the consciousness of men that determines their existence, but their social existence that determines their consciousness."
There is much to be said for this point of view, but most Marxists, including Zinn, take it too far. They (and he) promote what is essentially a deterministic view. Self interest is everything and explains everything; ideas and ideological principles are but justifications added after the fact.
This ignores the fact that humans are capable of making choices, they have imaginations, and they usually define their self interest not in an atomistcally individualistic way but much more broadly, as that which is good for my family, my posterity, and given the latter, necessarily what is good for my community, nation and civilization.
As you read Zinn you will come to notice a tedious repetitiveness in the way all events are interpreted in a most grubby, narrowly self interested manner. One should certainly never lose sight of this aspect of the human experience. But it is a mistake to ignore the reality that we are capable of seeing beyond that narrow perspective, and pursuing purposes beyond that. The admixture of human motives is immensely complex, and simplistic interpretations of it are fraught with the likelihood of error, whether the conclusion is pure selfishness or pure high principle.
Roxanne Appleby said:
Well, like I said, I've only just begun.
But, to me, genocide, the methodical slaughter of entire indigneous populations, doesn't seem like a narrow perspective. It seems like a more important story than: he came here in three boats and discovered a New World. Why do history books ignore this part of history?
cloudy
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Kandi said:
because we are looked at as a conquered people....even as an extinct people, by some. It wasn't considered important then, and to most, it isn't considered important now.
But we're still here... in fact, our population grows more, not less.
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Roxanne Appleby
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"Genocide" is not the right word to apply, because it implies organization and intent, neither of which was present. Which does not mean that many people wilfully evaded thinking about the consequences of certain events. But the fact is, once the old world discovered the new tragic things were going to happen to the inhabitants of the new, period. Part of that was mircobiological - see Guns, Germs and Steel. Part of it was demographic - a lot of people in the old world weren't prepared to stay there. Once they arrived in the new they weren't prepared to stay within the boundaries drawn by distant politicians, and there wasn't a damned thing that any person red or white could do about that. I'm not trying to justify injustice, simply describe reality.Kandi said:
Also, I have little patience for romanticized views of pre-Colombian native Americans living in harmony. The Cherokees, for example, previously lived in lands occupied by certain Iriquois tribes in the historical period. What do you suppose happened to the people who prveviously occupied the land the Cherokees then moved into? They didn't take their capital gains from the real estate sale and retire to Seminole territory, I'll tell you that much. They fought and lost and paid a heavy price for being the loser. Native Americans had no monopoly on virtue, and European settlers no monopoly on vice, there were vicious scoundrels on all sides. Certain events in the history of our young species were simply beyond the control of any human beings. Hopefully as civilization evolves we will learn to avoid such tragedies in the future.
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cloudy
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Roxanne Appleby said:
Sorry to contradict you, Roxanne, but genocide was indeed intended. How else would you explain small-pox infected blankets, and starvation brought on by the intentional slaughtering of the buffalo herds?
Most times I bow to your historical knowledge, but not in this.
cantdog
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Kandi said:
Yes. Good enough book. Colonizers were just the beginning. It's the history of the common people. I think he missed something by skimming so quickly over the Jeffersonian rebellions. A good many people thought the Revolution had to do with Enlightenment principles, but those people were put down, sometimes brutally, by those for whom the war was a vehicle to shift control to American hands from British ones, without many other changes. Do continue; highly recommended.
amicus
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amicus
He who must not be named.
~~~
Just returned from babysitting all day, a two and a four year old, my pooper be draggin' a lil....and came home to my son and daughter in law, who brought my 20th grandchild home from the hospital today; fired up the computer, checked the mail and logged into Lit to see what the 'usual suspects' might be up to.
All three were snuggled up on a recliner in the front room, happy to be home and more than happy with a healthy, albeit somewhat small, 5 lbs, 13oz, baby boy who appears to be a rather quiet baby...when they heard me chuckle out lound, several times and asked what I found so humorous...
Well...they knew the reference to VoldeMort, as do I from watching with yet another set of grandkids down in San Diego...and laughed when I showed them the posts...
"He who must not be named..." is the resident radical for individual freedom, who insists that moral values are absolute, much like life and death, much to the chagrin of the 'usual suspects' who are all secular humanists and relativists, to whom nothing is absolute and all is relative, except their own absolute 'beliefs' in the collectivist mantra of the unwashed.
Be that as it may...once upon a time...I rebuilt and old sailboat, a John Alden design, 36ft gaff rigged cutter that I bought for a little more than a grand in Miami and refitted it to sail into the Bahama's.
My destination was Little San Salvador Island, one of the eastern most, where Columbus allegedly first set foot in the western hemisphere.
I had timed my departure from Miami after Hurricane season was over, made several stops along the way, Chub Key, Nassau, before navigating through shallow water and coral heads once again into deep water and across, I think it was called, Tongue of the Ocean, into the eastern islands.
We did, my companion and me, however, run into a late season gale and arrived at Little San Salvadore a little worse for wear than intended. We were pleased and a little curious as it seemed most of the island's population crowded the shoreline as I anchored in about two fathoms a couple hundred yards from the beach.
The people were all black, former slaves except one white Catholic Priest, from whom I was able to purchase a five gallon container of gasoline for my little atomic four inboard engine. The Priest controlled the only electric generator on the island and fired it up for two hours each evening, especially this evening, as it turned out to be Christmas Eve.
We were welcomed by the islanders, into their homes, they shared meals and showed us the island and the special foods they harvested from the sea and invited us to a Christmas Pageant that was one of the most moving events I have ever seen...a portrayal of their ancestors being shipped across the sea from Africa and the tribulations they underwent during the voyage and after. The entire ceremony was conducted by a black man in a purple suit and white tie who spoke English with a British accent and somehow milked nearly a hundred dollars from an audience I didn't expect to have ten dollars among them...truly fascinating..
In later years, I embarked upon studies for my Masters Degree in History at the University of Portland, * a catholic school no less*, and the course I enjoyed the most were those in Historiography, a study of the men who wrote the histories we study in lower education.
And it was truly an education to read of the same period in history described by different historians...not one agreed, even slightly, as to the reasons and motives for the explorers or the Monarch's that financed them.
Roxanne pointed out the possible foibles of pandering to one interpretation of history and revisionist Marxists are the worst of a bad lot, along with the Catholics and the Protestants, who of course had their own axe to grind and polish.
I discovered what all truly professional historians quickly realized, that the only 'truth' in history is contained in actual written documents that recorded the events of the day, births, deaths, trade shipments, how many barrels containing what actually were unloaded at such and such a port at such and such a time. A tedious and not always rewarding inquiry into what 'really' happened at any given time in history.
Having said that, there is another level to consider...that of context, the time and place and actual condition of the world at the time in question. I think one has to 'become' a 15th century person to 'feel' the persona of Isabella and Ferdinand, of Columbus and his captains and the men they commanded. One has to try to comprehend their beliefs, their customs and religion, fears and doubts, especially as the vast ocean between Europe/Africa and the then unnamed, America's had never been crossed in all of recorded history to that time.
It was common practice at that time and for a thousand years before that, back to the Phoenicians, to sail down the west coast of Africa and raid villages for slaves and valuables to take back to Europe. There was a mindset, I imagine, that Europe, the sophisticated city folk, looked upon tribal races as barbarians without culture or learning and easy prey to armed sailors and soldiers and money in the bank for those who funded their voyages.
There were thousands of indigent peoples overwhelmed and brutally disposed of by the powers-that-be at the time, nothing new there and the so called 'native americans' in north america were no different than how the Spanish treated the 'native americans' in Mexico and throughout south america.
Had the indigent population of any conquered people been outwardly competitive with the Europeans, history would have had an entirely different flavor. I am writing some what of an 'alternative' historical novel, wherein native North Americans, actually discovered Europe before Christianity told hold, I hope I live long enough to finish it, especially to send Cloudy a copy so she can quit hating me...retard cannibal that she is...
chuckles...
from He who shall not be named....
the truly ugly American....amicusa...
He who must not be named.
~~~
Just returned from babysitting all day, a two and a four year old, my pooper be draggin' a lil....and came home to my son and daughter in law, who brought my 20th grandchild home from the hospital today; fired up the computer, checked the mail and logged into Lit to see what the 'usual suspects' might be up to.
All three were snuggled up on a recliner in the front room, happy to be home and more than happy with a healthy, albeit somewhat small, 5 lbs, 13oz, baby boy who appears to be a rather quiet baby...when they heard me chuckle out lound, several times and asked what I found so humorous...
Well...they knew the reference to VoldeMort, as do I from watching with yet another set of grandkids down in San Diego...and laughed when I showed them the posts...
"He who must not be named..." is the resident radical for individual freedom, who insists that moral values are absolute, much like life and death, much to the chagrin of the 'usual suspects' who are all secular humanists and relativists, to whom nothing is absolute and all is relative, except their own absolute 'beliefs' in the collectivist mantra of the unwashed.
Be that as it may...once upon a time...I rebuilt and old sailboat, a John Alden design, 36ft gaff rigged cutter that I bought for a little more than a grand in Miami and refitted it to sail into the Bahama's.
My destination was Little San Salvador Island, one of the eastern most, where Columbus allegedly first set foot in the western hemisphere.
I had timed my departure from Miami after Hurricane season was over, made several stops along the way, Chub Key, Nassau, before navigating through shallow water and coral heads once again into deep water and across, I think it was called, Tongue of the Ocean, into the eastern islands.
We did, my companion and me, however, run into a late season gale and arrived at Little San Salvadore a little worse for wear than intended. We were pleased and a little curious as it seemed most of the island's population crowded the shoreline as I anchored in about two fathoms a couple hundred yards from the beach.
The people were all black, former slaves except one white Catholic Priest, from whom I was able to purchase a five gallon container of gasoline for my little atomic four inboard engine. The Priest controlled the only electric generator on the island and fired it up for two hours each evening, especially this evening, as it turned out to be Christmas Eve.
We were welcomed by the islanders, into their homes, they shared meals and showed us the island and the special foods they harvested from the sea and invited us to a Christmas Pageant that was one of the most moving events I have ever seen...a portrayal of their ancestors being shipped across the sea from Africa and the tribulations they underwent during the voyage and after. The entire ceremony was conducted by a black man in a purple suit and white tie who spoke English with a British accent and somehow milked nearly a hundred dollars from an audience I didn't expect to have ten dollars among them...truly fascinating..
In later years, I embarked upon studies for my Masters Degree in History at the University of Portland, * a catholic school no less*, and the course I enjoyed the most were those in Historiography, a study of the men who wrote the histories we study in lower education.
And it was truly an education to read of the same period in history described by different historians...not one agreed, even slightly, as to the reasons and motives for the explorers or the Monarch's that financed them.
Roxanne pointed out the possible foibles of pandering to one interpretation of history and revisionist Marxists are the worst of a bad lot, along with the Catholics and the Protestants, who of course had their own axe to grind and polish.
I discovered what all truly professional historians quickly realized, that the only 'truth' in history is contained in actual written documents that recorded the events of the day, births, deaths, trade shipments, how many barrels containing what actually were unloaded at such and such a port at such and such a time. A tedious and not always rewarding inquiry into what 'really' happened at any given time in history.
Having said that, there is another level to consider...that of context, the time and place and actual condition of the world at the time in question. I think one has to 'become' a 15th century person to 'feel' the persona of Isabella and Ferdinand, of Columbus and his captains and the men they commanded. One has to try to comprehend their beliefs, their customs and religion, fears and doubts, especially as the vast ocean between Europe/Africa and the then unnamed, America's had never been crossed in all of recorded history to that time.
It was common practice at that time and for a thousand years before that, back to the Phoenicians, to sail down the west coast of Africa and raid villages for slaves and valuables to take back to Europe. There was a mindset, I imagine, that Europe, the sophisticated city folk, looked upon tribal races as barbarians without culture or learning and easy prey to armed sailors and soldiers and money in the bank for those who funded their voyages.
There were thousands of indigent peoples overwhelmed and brutally disposed of by the powers-that-be at the time, nothing new there and the so called 'native americans' in north america were no different than how the Spanish treated the 'native americans' in Mexico and throughout south america.
Had the indigent population of any conquered people been outwardly competitive with the Europeans, history would have had an entirely different flavor. I am writing some what of an 'alternative' historical novel, wherein native North Americans, actually discovered Europe before Christianity told hold, I hope I live long enough to finish it, especially to send Cloudy a copy so she can quit hating me...retard cannibal that she is...
chuckles...
from He who shall not be named....
the truly ugly American....amicusa...
