A peerage question (story research)

[starrkers]

I'm writing a story that has a prince and a couple of his cronies involved. I'm currently working on the assumption that these two cronies are eldest sons of Dukes who will one day take over the Duchy of their respective fathers.
My question is: what are they called?
In other words:
Prince is to King so ?? is to Duke.

Mostly in the story they'll be known by their first names, but I want to be able to throw in their titles and position, so it's obvious they're not just random plebeians.

(European type peerage, please)

 

[Stella_Omega]

The sons of kings, princes and dukes, says wikipedia, are all titled 'Prince'
(another cool link for today)

I know that the English peerage referred to each other by their estate; Lord John Wilmot was known as "Rochester" to his friends.

I am positive the rules were different in Europe, so I'm hoping someone else has some resource for that!

 

[Equinoxe]

It depends, but in the British peerage the eldest son of a Duke normally gets to use one of the lesser titles of the Duke as a courtesy title. So, the son of the Duke of Montrose is called the Marquess of Graham (although the actual title belongs to his father), for example. Which lesser title, though, varies from Peerage to Peerage.

 

[Lalah]

In movies and books I often seen then referred as "The son of Duke..."

It sounds like a good solution to me; in one phrase you know everything you have to know. Which I guess is the goal of these announcements.

 

[Stella_Omega]

It depends, but in the British peerage the eldest son of a Duke normally gets to use one of the lesser titles of the Duke as a courtesy title. So, the son of the Duke of Montrose is called the Marquess of Graham (although the actual title belongs to his father), for example. Which lesser title, though, varies from Peerage to Peerage.

Totally off the subject but your av makes me smile-- Totoro was a lovely animation!

 

[starrkers]

Argh! The more I research this point the more convoluted it becomes.

I think I'll just fudge it and call them Lord.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

Argh! The more I research this point the more convoluted it becomes.

I think I'll just fudge it and call them Lord.

Equinoxe had it right, the son takes the next lesser title.

Peers have five ranks,

Duke, Marquess, Earl, Viscount, and Baron. (In that order)

While a Baronet holds a heriditary title, it's not a peerage.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Equinoxe had it right, the son takes the next lesser title.

Peers have five ranks,

Duke, Marquess, Earl, Viscount, and Baron. (In that order)

While a Baronet holds a heriditary title, it's not a peerage.

This is correct. The son of the Peer actually has no titile until it is formally given by the king or inherited. However, generally a Lord who has more than one title would allow the son to be known by the least of his titles. A woman would generally take the title, "Lady."

 

[Stella_Omega]

Argh! The more I research this point the more convoluted it becomes.

I think I'll just fudge it and call them Lord.

That's cheating!

Any country in particular? and what time period?

 

[drksideofthemoon]

This is correct. The son of the Peer actually has no titile until it is formally given by the king or inherited. However, generally a Lord who has more than one title would allow the son to be known by the least of his titles. A woman would generally take the title, "Lady."

All together now, Duke duke, duke, Duke of Earl, duke, duke, duke...

 

[drksideofthemoon]

That's cheating!

Any country in particular? and what time period?

We can always defer to the Burgemeister Meisterburger...

 

[Stella_Omega]

All together now, Duke duke, duke, Duke of Earl, duke, duke, duke...

Oi'm 'Enery The Eight, I ham
'Enery The Eighth I ham, I ham
Oi got married to the widow next door
She's been married seven times before...

 

[drksideofthemoon]

Oi'm 'Enery The Eight, I ham
'Enery The Eighth I ham, I ham
Oi got married to the widow next door
She's been married seven times before...

American Idol, here we come!!

 

[starrkers]

Oi'm 'Enery The Eight, I ham
'Enery The Eighth I ham, I ham
Oi got married to the widow next door
She's been married seven times before...

An' every one of 'em an 'Enery
Wouldn' 'ave a Willy or a Sam
So I'm 'Enery
'Enery the 8th I yam!

Period indeterminate, country mythical - it's part of the Enchanted Twelve chain, I just wanted to add a level of authenticity to it all, but bugger it, it's too much like hard work

Thanks everyone for the help. It's just not as cut and dried simple as I'd hoped.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

An' every one of 'em an 'Enery
Wouldn' 'ave a Willy or a Sam
So I'm 'Enery
'Enery the 8th I yam!

Period indeterminate, country mythical - it's part of the Enchanted Twelve chain, I just wanted to add a level of authenticity to it all, but bugger it, it's too much like hard work

Well, you can a bit of what we came up with, and add your own twist to it. After all, it's your world you're writing about.

All this hams and yams is making me hungry....

 

[starrkers]

Ooo, ham and yams...now I'm hungry too!

 

[matriarch]

An' every one of 'em an 'Enery
Wouldn' 'ave a Willy or a Sam
So I'm 'Enery
'Enery the 8th I yam!

Period indeterminate, country mythical - it's part of the Enchanted Twelve chain, I just wanted to add a level of authenticity to it all, but bugger it, it's too much like hard work

Thanks everyone for the help. It's just not as cut and dried simple as I'd hoped.

If you call one of them Viscount something, and the other Lord something....you won't go far wrong.

Sons of Dukes are inevitably titled, as has been said, with lesser titles of their father.

Example: Lord Bath (Marquess) and his wife the Marchioness, had two sons, Lord Weymouth, who became the seventh Marquess of Bath on the death of his father (1992), and Lord Christopher, comptroller of the estate; and a daughter, Lady Silvey.

Just make up a title for your nobility, then a name of the son, and give him a lesser title. It's fiction, you can call them what you like.