A pansesual woman has a question for Gays and Lesbians

[Lady_In_Black]

First of all, before I ask. I'm pansexual, and I'm also what 90+ percent of the population call "woman". Just so you've got my point of view. Now, my question.

While reading through the "What do YOU define 'bisexualality' as" thread two lesbians (they called them self this) stated that they do not interact with penis even if that means bi-proxy. I've also had plenty of gay men refer to vagina's as 'ew' and other less kind things.

So, why? I get that you're not attracted, that there is a disconnect between the opposite sex's genitalia and your own sexuality but how it is repulsive? Why is it repulsive? I know there is a stereotype that a lot of lesbians were abused my mean and so they turned to women, shunning the male paradigm. But this isn't honestly the case, is it? Why are gay men squicked by vulva/vagina? They were birthed through one, for goodness sake! And the lesbian mothers on the board? How exactly did you have your children? What about the fact that many gay people on this board of children. Do your children of the oppisit gender repulse you?

Why the repulsion? Why just not indiffrence? When I find something sexualy uninteresting, it's not because of repulsion, it's simple disinterest.

Please, please, please understand that I just want to understand. The GLBTetc community could always use a bit more understanding, even amongst it's self, and that is all I want. Some clarification, not justification, I promise.

Thank you.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Well first of all I'm one of those self described lesbians cuz that's what I am.

As to why I dislike men, their genitalia and do not want to have sex with women who actively are having sex with men, the answers are all different.

I don't dislike ALL men, BTW. Just most of them. This is more feminism and gender based then sexuality based. If was just sexual I also could care less. As a woman and a feminist I find the condescending, chauvinistic and sexist bullshit of most men to be abhorrent. When you add in their proclivity to assume I'd have any interest in fucking them and their normal negative reaction to being turn down, yeah I dislike them greatly, as a general rule.

As for their genitalia? I just think it's ugly as hell. I get NO sexual urges from seeing it and to be honest I find it to be pretty gross looking.

Lastly, Bi & Bi-curious women. I CHOOSE to have sex with people who I can relate to both sexually and mentally. If some chick likes dick we aren't relating. That's cuz we are just not in sync in our sexual and mental tastes/states. I don't have sex with confirmed dykes that get into BDSM either for the same reasons. It's cuz we aren't on the same wave lengths.

That said, I could give a shit who anybody else fucks. If bi chicks want to alternate flavors and then hop into bed with two of each and a parrot, I really don't care. They just don't get to tell me that I HAVE TO find them sexually compatible.

 

[I_LIKE_PEAS]

Well first of all I'm one of those self described lesbians cuz that's what I am.

As to why I dislike men, their genitalia and do not want to have sex with women who actively are having sex with men, the answers are all different.

I don't dislike ALL men, BTW. Just most of them. This is more feminism and gender based then sexuality based. If was just sexual I also could care less. As a woman and a feminist I find the condescending, chauvinistic and sexist bullshit of most men to be abhorrent. When you add in their proclivity to assume I'd have any interest in fucking them and their normal negative reaction to being turn down, yeah I dislike them greatly, as a general rule.

As for their genitalia? I just think it's ugly as hell. I get NO sexual urges from seeing it and to be honest I find it to be pretty gross looking.

Lastly, Bi & Bi-curious women. I CHOOSE to have sex with people who I can relate to both sexually and mentally. If some chick likes dick we aren't relating. That's cuz we are just not in sync in our sexual and mental tastes/states. I don't have sex with confirmed dykes that get into BDSM either for the same reasons. It's cuz we aren't on the same wave lengths.

That said, I could give a shit who anybody else fucks. If bi chicks want to alternate flavors and then hop into bed with two of each and a parrot, I really don't care. They just don't get to tell me that I HAVE TO find them sexually compatible.

Jews are greedy
Niggers are lazy
Whites can't dance
As a woman and a feminist I find the condescending, chauvinistic and sexist bullshit of most men to be abhorrent. When you add in their proclivity to assume I'd have any interest in fucking them and their normal negative reaction to being turn down, yeah I dislike them greatly, as a general rule.

Wordy but it fits right in there

Yup bigotry.

Every bigot I ever met has excuses for being hateful douches but they still look like bigots

But you can never convince them that they are evil

 

[Safe_Bet]

Sorry, Lady_In_Black. I was trying to be civil and answer your questions. It appears that the haters followed me however.

 

[Lady_In_Black]

Every bigot I ever met has excuses for being hateful douches but they still look like bigots

But you can never convince them that they are evil

Erm, not really the point of this thread, Peas. If you're going to post a response, could you at least keep it on topic? I get that you're offended by what she said, but let's be realistic. We are all racist and bigots; it's only if our behaviour hurts other people, that it matters. (Well, that's not intirely true, I know. But that's a conversation for a diffrent thread, I think.)

She told me EXACTLY the answer I am asking for, she told me 'why'. If you're going to rant about her response, could you at least make it constructive? I'm seeking knowledge here. What exactly have YOU contributed?

 

[Safe_Bet]

Yeah, I see the "not being judgemental thing is working well.

BTW, these are two FINE examples of why I don't like most men. They're assholes. It must come from the Y chromosome or sumthin.

P.S. No one asked you to feel sorry for me. You just proved the condescending part quite well though. Thanks for that!

 

[CandiCame]

I always kinda looked at people who were either completely strait or completely gay as a sort of fetish. Those men HAVE to have another cock to get off. I'm not really sure about the disdain for genitalia; but I'm also bisexual, so I couldn't tell you; but I do think that it has a certain appeal to some people more then others.

I've dated women who liked the cock and hated the sperm- which I can understand; I like it, but I can see how it's icky, sticky, and gross if you don't like it. This whole, shooting fluids at each other thing that we do is kinda gross if you stand back and look at it objectively.

Maybe some people see vaginal fluids the same way? I like it, but I've dated chicks who get it EVERYWHERE, not just when they cum, but when they're aroused.

I've also known guys who won't eat chicks out when they're on their period (again, not something that's gonna stop me) because they think it's gross, but the other 3 weeks they're gold. I think that there's a whole range of what people can find sexy or repulsive.

Just so you know, I, for one, don't like to think about "coming from a vagina" when interacting with a vagina... because that'll make me think about my mom... and I'm pretty sure that would soften me up pretty fast....

Well, that's my 2 cents, and that's probably about what it's worth, lol.

 

[Etoile]

For the record, not all gays and lesbians are disgusted by the opposite sex's genitalia. I honestly don't care. I don't find dicks attractive, I don't find them gross. It's kind of more like a scientific approach to the cock. I just see them as a tool for operations. Actually, come to think of it, don't find female genitalia that interesting either. I like looking at them but more as a curiosity than an object of arousal. I look at the differences between them, but I don't get turned on specifically. A pussy is a thing. A cock is a thing. They're just things. Not people.

Also, I think I only find penises funny looking because I don't have one and don't see them regularly. I'm sure if I was straight or bi and saw them more often, I would be used to them.

 

[MrsCCfromRC]

For the record, not all gays and lesbians are disgusted by the opposite sex's genitalia. I honestly don't care. I don't find dicks attractive, I don't find them gross. It's kind of more like a scientific approach to the cock. I just see them as a tool for operations. Actually, come to think of it, don't find female genitalia that interesting either. I like looking at them but more as a curiosity than an object of arousal. I look at the differences between them, but I don't get turned on specifically. A pussy is a thing. A cock is a thing. They're just things. Not people.

Also, I think I only find penises funny looking because I don't have one and don't see them regularly. I'm sure if I was straight or bi and saw them more often, I would be used to them.

I think that is very well said.
For me, I just have trouble agreeing with sweeping classifications or condemnations of any kind. To say, "I don't dislike ALL men, BTW. Just most of them. This is more feminism and gender based then sexuality based." to me is classification and only brings division and discord. The more we think us against them the further apart we'll be. I have met male, female, lesbian, gay, bi, trans, pans during my life and some are idiots and asses, but some of all of them are also wonderful people. Why is it we tend to decide whether or not we like a person because of what they are instead of who. Republicans hate Democrats and Democrats hate Republicans with ends up in gridlock instead working together to make the country a better place. I respect everyone is entitled to their own opinion, which if often arrived at through personal experience, but I feel we should judge each person on who they are. If, in this case, lesbians have a very low opinion of men (or insert any two groups) then how are the good guys ever bring about change to bring both sides closer. We should look at the person first, not at the imaginary logo we place upon them.

 

[Safe_Bet]

I think that is very well said.
For me, I just have trouble agreeing with sweeping classifications or condemnations of any kind. To say, "I don't dislike ALL men, BTW. Just most of them. This is more feminism and gender based then sexuality based." to me is classification and only brings division and discord. The more we think us against them the further apart we'll be. I have met male, female, lesbian, gay, bi, trans, pans during my life and some are idiots and asses, but some of all of them are also wonderful people. Why is it we tend to decide whether or not we like a person because of what they are instead of who. Republicans hate Democrats and Democrats hate Republicans with ends up in gridlock instead working together to make the country a better place. I respect everyone is entitled to their own opinion, which if often arrived at through personal experience, but I feel we should judge each person on who they are. If, in this case, lesbians have a very low opinion of men (or insert any two groups) then how are the good guys ever bring about change to bring both sides closer. We should look at the person first, not at the imaginary logo we place upon them.

Let me try to explain better.

First of all the "division and discord" is already there. THAT is what has brought about the "classification", not vice versa.

For example if every time you encountered a group of 10 redheads, 7 of them picked up stones and started throwing them at you. Sure three of them are just standing there doing nothing, but who cares. I certainly am not going to reach out my hand to those three cuz at best they are being silent. As far as I know they just might have lousy arms and are waiting for me to get closer. Additionally, even if they aren't like the others there IS a very strong possibility that they will eventually pick up a rock due to simple peer pressure.

That is why it is often safe to assume that a group will act a certain way. There is a whole science of group dynamics, but lets just leave it to say that being "judgmental" and deciding that you want nothing to do with a given group, while not being fair to EVERY individual, is accurate nonetheless as a whole, based on your experiences with that group.

Another example is one you mentioned. Not EVERY Republican is a heartless evil bastard... just most of them are! That's why it is safe for me to ASSUME that if somebody identifies as a Republican I am going to stridently disagree with them on most things political. That doesn't make either of us wrong, BTW. It just means that we disagree strongly. The problem comes when the Republican tries to get me to vote a certain way. If I don't and the Republicans mostly start calling me a communist/socialist/pinko then I don't really want to associate or be around them now do I? Even if it's not EVERY Republican, as a group it is fair for me to say I don't want to associate with you.

Granted every now and them a given "redhead" or "Republican" will stand up and say "Hey, wait a damn minute! She has a right to not have stones thrown at her/to vote as she wishes!" Those are the few people who I can call friends and reach out to, even though we might philosophically disagree on certain things.

BTW, I ain't seen any of that kind of person around here lately. Seems like all we have here are a bunch of lesbian hating, redheaded, Republicans.

 

[MrsCCfromRC]

Let me try to explain better.

First of all the "division and discord" is already there. THAT is what has brought about the "classification", not vice versa.

For example if every time you encountered a group of 10 redheads, 7 of them picked up stones and started throwing them at you. Sure three of them are just standing there doing nothing, but who cares. I certainly am not going to reach out my hand to those three cuz at best they are being silent. As far as I know they just might have lousy arms and are waiting for me to get closer. Additionally, even if they aren't like the others there IS a very strong possibility that they will eventually pick up a rock due to simple peer pressure.

That is why it is often safe to assume that a group will act a certain way. There is a whole science of group dynamics, but lets just leave it to say that being "judgmental" and deciding that you want nothing to do with a given group, while not being fair to EVERY individual, is accurate nonetheless as a whole, based on your experiences with that group.

Another example is one you mentioned. Not EVERY Republican is a heartless evil bastard... just most of them are! That's why it is safe for me to ASSUME that if somebody identifies as a Republican I am going to stridently disagree with them on most things political. That doesn't make either of us wrong, BTW. It just means that we disagree strongly. The problem comes when the Republican tries to get me to vote a certain way. If I don't and the Republicans mostly start calling me a communist/socialist/pinko then I don't really want to associate or be around them now do I? Even if it's not EVERY Republican, as a group it is fair for me to say I don't want to associate with you.

Granted every now and them a given "redhead" or "Republican" will stand up and say "Hey, wait a damn minute! She has a right to not have stones thrown at her/to vote as she wishes!" Those are the few people who I can call friends and reach out to, even though we might philosophically disagree on certain things.

BTW, I ain't seen any of that kind of person around here lately. Seems like all we have here are a bunch of lesbian hating, redheaded, Republicans.

I know we could go around and around this, and it would probably be a fun discussion to have and I'm not looking to get anyone angry. I do understand what you're saying and respect that. I haven't walked a yard let alone a mile in your shoes. I get the feeling that your reactive tendencies toward men are based on your experience. My message is that if we always do the same, expect the same reaction. If the redheads are throwing rocks, throwing them back doesn't change things but perpetuates. I have many friends who are Republicans and, although I don't agree with their politics, if we leave politics aside they are fun and interesting. If the talk turns to rocks or politics, it's where I exit. It's just my feeling that if we pre-classify people then things will never change. If a redhead throws rocks I want to know why and how can we make the situation better. Hell, I was a teenager in the 70's.. maybe there's still some hippie in me. But I can hope and try to make things better... one redhead at a time. lol

By the way, I have nothing against redheads...

 

[CandiCame]

If you don't mind me asking, what kind of condescending, chauvinistic bullshit are you used to putting up with? I was just wondering, since these blanket actions cause you to dislike men so much. It seems that you've had some very bad experiences.

Back to the whole sexuality thing; I think that maybe a lot of the reason that I am bisexual (what's the difference between bi and pan?) is because I don't really draw gender lines. I treat men and women exactly the same, unless the chick is pregnant, then she get treated better, because she's gonna have a baby and I absolutely love babies- I don't say anything to a dude I wouldn't say to a chick and vice versa.

I do that for a lot of things; the only real thing I classify people on is personality; if someone's a complete dick to me, fuck that guy. I'm a little ageist to, I guess, because I will let older people by with more then younger people, and I have no idea why. Kids to. I'll let kids by with just about anything.

But I have found that, regardless of gender, people become more or less attractive because of their personality. Take the guy I'm with now- he was already hot, but not exactly my type- he looks like another little animie boy- I prefer my men to look like they could beat the shit out of me. But he's one of the nicest guys I've ever met in my life; he's a moral compass that I desperately needed- and that MAKES him hot. If someone's really good looking, but then a total dick; it MAKES them ugly.

I kinda feel like (I think it was Lustopia?) in that genitals don't really do a whole lot to me. The difference is that I do find both attractive; but I'm also more into the person then the parts. I think that there's a whole spectrum of arousal and we're all just somewhere on it.

edit: I don't even group along political lines, because I've been in politics my entire life and it seems to me that if you're gung-ho about a particular party, you aren't really thinking. To defaultly take a liberal or conservative position on a particular issue just because you identify as liberal or conservative seems... off to me. You think about the issue and respond in a sensible way. There's some shit I'm conservative about and some shit I'm liberal about. I'm liberal about gay rights, for example. But I'm conservative in all of my financial estimates (at least on a personal level). I probably lean more liberal on most things, now that I think about it, but that's because it's how I see the world, what meshes best with reality- not because I identify as liberal. I actually don't even like bipartisanship at all; I think you shouldn't need a party to run for any kind of office; and I hate primaries. Lots of people like them, though.

 

[MrsCCfromRC]

edit: I don't even group along political lines, because I've been in politics my entire life and it seems to me that if you're gung-ho about a particular party, you aren't really thinking. To defaultly take a liberal or conservative position on a particular issue just because you identify as liberal or conservative seems... off to me. You think about the issue and respond in a sensible way. There's some shit I'm conservative about and some shit I'm liberal about. I'm liberal about gay rights, for example. But I'm conservative in all of my financial estimates (at least on a personal level). I probably lean more liberal on most things, now that I think about it, but that's because it's how I see the world, what meshes best with reality- not because I identify as liberal. I actually don't even like bipartisanship at all; I think you shouldn't need a party to run for any kind of office; and I hate primaries. Lots of people like them, though.

Wow, I absolutely agree... vote for the best representative in your area, not for some idiot who happens to be a member of the party you support. Let's start populating government with quality people instead of blindly voting for party hacks. Bipartisanship, in my eyes, leads to ineffective gridlock....

Whew...no more politics or deep thoughts for me - makes my head hurt!

 

[Safe_Bet]

I have to laugh as I reread this thread!

• There is one pan chick who asked a question.

• Three lesbians who try to honestly answer that question.

• One Bi chick who disagrees with a couple of the lesbians, but at least does it civilly and in return receives a civil response.

• And three Bi guys who are neither civil (in fact a couple are out and out insulting) nor do they even attempt to "get it".


Now Lady In Black, does that explain partly why I find men to be repulsive????

 

[Stella_Omega]

NOt only that, but the lesbians took great pains-- yes, even safe_bet did-- to make it crystal clear that they were only talking for themselves.

And these dudes took all sorts of offense, why is that?

 

[WillowedCabin]

I don't dislike ALL men, BTW. Just most of them. This is more feminism and gender based then sexuality based. If was just sexual I also could care less. As a woman and a feminist I find the condescending, chauvinistic and sexist bullshit of most men to be abhorrent. When you add in their proclivity to assume I'd have any interest in fucking them and their normal negative reaction to being turn down, yeah I dislike them greatly, as a general rule.

As for their genitalia? I just think it's ugly as hell. I get NO sexual urges from seeing it and to be honest I find it to be pretty gross looking.

I think you are completely undermining yourself there, Safe_Bet. Feminism is about equality of the sexes, so it's a bit hypocritical for you to be blatantly sexist, then slam men for being the same way. People are not born sexist-- that's taught to them. I think you're prejudice against men has nothing to do with feminism, rather anger and hurt toward society in general. Being a feminist is about understanding that men are repressed sexually and emotionally as well--for really, all oppression is connected. If you want to blame someone, blame Disney movies, The Brady Bunch, or Miss America competitions.

In response to the thread question, the human body is never disgusting. It is beautiful, savage, unpredictable, resilient, and evocative, but never repulsive. If you find something to not be to your taste, that doesn't mean that it is disgusting. That would be like saying chocolate is clean and good whereas vanilla is morally reprehensible. Just because you don't see beauty in something, doesn't mean it's not beautiful-- it just means you didn't see it.

Also, it's important to think about why the gay community feels the need to label itself. My personal opinion is that it's a community of people who have been isolated their whole lives and allowed others to control their feelings and repress their sexuality (pre-coming out). So it's not a surprise that once 'out' they feel the need to label and be as secure in their community/sexuality as possible-- to have pride in being 'other', with others. The only problem is that in trying to be 'other' they can actually alienate themselves even more. For example, if a man has been homosexual and repressed most of his life, once he comes out, he will reject all things that were once required of him (i.e. finding women attractive). He might go the completely opposite direction and say, "Vulvae are disgusting and I'd rather die than touch one." All this does is hurt the woman's view of self and vicariously, hurt the homosexual man.

Oh, by the way, I'm a pansexual chick. Kahzing!

 

[Stella_Omega]

It must be so lovely to be a third-wave feminist...

 

[girlsmiley]

I have to laugh as I reread this thread!

• There is one pan chick who asked a question.

• Three lesbians who try to honestly answer that question.

• One Bi chick who disagrees with a couple of the lesbians, but at least does it civilly and in return receives a civil response.

• And three Bi guys who are neither civil (in fact a couple are out and out insulting) nor do they even attempt to "get it".


Now Lady In Black, does that explain partly why I find men to be repulsive????

Amy, they're not even TRYING to understand.

Do you think these guys even READ the title of the thread?
Seriously, guys - what's going on in your head?

Safe_Bet has been honest and taken the time to answer Lady_In_Blacks question. How about showing some appreciation?

Talk about pushing shit uphill with a stick.

Oh and this
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/670c0ffed5/psa-an-important-message-from-women-everywhere

 

[Safe_Bet]

Amy, they're not even TRYING to understand.

Do you think these guys even READ the title of the thread?
Seriously, guys - what's going on in your head?

Safe_Bet has been honest and taken the time to answer Lady_In_Blacks question. How about showing some appreciation?

Talk about pushing shit uphill with a stick.

Oh and this
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/670c0ffed5/psa-an-important-message-from-women-everywhere

You're right. It's just a bunch of guys that are jealous cuz I get a LOT more pussy then they do (as a GROUP!).

 

[girlsmiley]

You're right. It's just a bunch of guys that are jealous cuz I get a LOT more pussy then they do (as a GROUP!).

Show off!
You get women. And vice versa. Of course you get a lot more pussy.
These boys have a lot to learn.

 

[Stella_Omega]

All of you (lesbians too) think for a moment. Your fathers, your brothers, your uncles, your nephews, your male teachers/professors, friends and colleagues. The majority of them are already swine in her eyes.

And this matters to any of them how?

 

[Noira]

NOt only that, but the lesbians took great pains-- yes, even safe_bet did-- to make it crystal clear that they were only talking for themselves.

And these dudes took all sorts of offense, why is that?

People take offense when you insult them as a group, generally. I get snippy, for example, when someone insinuates that women only belong in the kitchen, pregnant, submissively giving blowjobs to their Domly Master Sir.

And I'm sorry if I'm a bit snippy, but to the guys, please, seriously. All women get tons of shit comments like "are you on your period?" and "go make me a sandwich." You can live with a few generalized descriptions of the male gender from lesbians. Congratulations. Now you know for a short little bit of time on the internet what it's like to be female: insulting generalizations regarding your gender, only you're only getting it from lesbians and feminists and I get it from pretty much any guy who likes the same fandom crap that I like. It's the sacrifice I must make to talk about Star Wars and comic books, and it's the sacrifice you must make if you want to talk about lesbians.

Now, I do agree with MrsCCfromRC's post on how we should judge people for who they are, not what they are. That's why I'm pansexual. (Someone asked the difference. Bi means 'two', and generally rules out transexuals. Pansexuals are attracted to people regardless of their gender identity. Bisexuals are attracted to both gender identities. It's kind of like the earlier statement about seeing genitalia as just tools... I view pansexuality as a sort of not-seeing-gender, just a person. It has nothing to do with polyamory or multiple partners at the same time!)

Unfortunately, not everyone is like that. That's why the discord is already there. When everyone is considered equal no matter their gender identity, sexuality, religion, race, job, age, weight, interests, appearance, then maybe there will be no discord. It will not happen, and therefore we'll make sweeping generalizations: kids will be kids, no fat chicks, Christians are bigots, Asians are better at math and music, bisexuals are promiscuous, men never ask directions, women are better caregivers, etc, etc. Not that these things are always right for every person, but there's been enough to make that stereotype in someone's mind. Everyone probably generalizes for something, whether it's automatically assuming someone fat will be diabetic if they keep it up, or that bisexuals aren't monogamous, or that kids are just 'like that'. Don't waste your time being offended by it. So one lesbian hates men! Who cares? The funny thing is, men aren't being oppressed. Worry about something you can change that will help you. If it was a case of all (most) women thinking men were disgusting pigs, to a point where men were being discriminated against in the workplace and not being paid equally and not being hired for good jobs, yeah, maybe worry a bit then. But it's one person's opinion. A few people's opinions. Worry about something that really matters, like gay rights or something where it's TONS of people who don't like a something and it's severely effecting the way of life for other people.

As for the original question, now. I don't personally give much of a crap about genitalia (I agree with the statement of 'to me they're just tools') or gender identity, but say... I would be repulsed by a heavy smoker, because they smell like smoke all the time. I happen to be highly attracted to people in steampunk gear. These are personal preferences and fetishes. I find smoke smells repulsive on someone's clothing, and certain clothing to be highly attractive. Therefore, I choose people based on my certain inane preferences. Some people won't choose fat people. Or red-headed people. Or Asian people. OR WHATEVER. There's a word for people who have sex with people who don't want to have sex with them, and it usually comes with a trial and jail time.

If someone doesn't want you because of their preferences, move along. It's everyone's right to pick a romantic or sexual partner that they are comfortable and compatible with... and that includes whatever fetishes and squicks they may have, whether those are born from psychological, political, or whatever reason.

Would you force a straight man to suck cock? Of course not. He would probably be squicked out by it and the very idea of touching that other guy's cock. Would people assume this meant he was abused by men? Probably not. I know a lot of straight men who want virgin wives because they don't want another cock having been in their wife-to-be. That's cock-by-proxy. Their wife would be tainted and impure! Are people going to tell them they're being bigots? It's no different if a lesbian feels the same way about that cock and their sexual partner.

 

[bad_dave]

And this matters to any of them how?

Your the one who said it was alright to be offended on behalf of your sex even if the offensive statement was not directed at you personally.

 

[CandiCame]

People take offense when you insult them as a group, generally. I get snippy, for example, when someone insinuates that women only belong in the kitchen, pregnant, submissively giving blowjobs to their Domly Master Sir.

And I'm sorry if I'm a bit snippy, but to the guys, please, seriously. All women get tons of shit comments like "are you on your period?" and "go make me a sandwich." You can live with a few generalized descriptions of the male gender from lesbians. Congratulations. Now you know for a short little bit of time on the internet what it's like to be female: insulting generalizations regarding your gender, only you're only getting it from lesbians and feminists and I get it from pretty much any guy who likes the same fandom crap that I like. It's the sacrifice I must make to talk about Star Wars and comic books, and it's the sacrifice you must make if you want to talk about lesbians.

Now, I do agree with MrsCCfromRC's post on how we should judge people for who they are, not what they are. That's why I'm pansexual. (Someone asked the difference. Bi means 'two', and generally rules out transexuals. Pansexuals are attracted to people regardless of their gender identity. Bisexuals are attracted to both gender identities. It's kind of like the earlier statement about seeing genitalia as just tools... I view pansexuality as a sort of not-seeing-gender, just a person. It has nothing to do with polyamory or multiple partners at the same time!)

Unfortunately, not everyone is like that. That's why the discord is already there. When everyone is considered equal no matter their gender identity, sexuality, religion, race, job, age, weight, interests, appearance, then maybe there will be no discord. It will not happen, and therefore we'll make sweeping generalizations: kids will be kids, no fat chicks, Christians are bigots, Asians are better at math and music, bisexuals are promiscuous, men never ask directions, women are better caregivers, etc, etc. Not that these things are always right for every person, but there's been enough to make that stereotype in someone's mind. Everyone probably generalizes for something, whether it's automatically assuming someone fat will be diabetic if they keep it up, or that bisexuals aren't monogamous, or that kids are just 'like that'. Don't waste your time being offended by it. So one lesbian hates men! Who cares? The funny thing is, men aren't being oppressed. Worry about something you can change that will help you. If it was a case of all (most) women thinking men were disgusting pigs, to a point where men were being discriminated against in the workplace and not being paid equally and not being hired for good jobs, yeah, maybe worry a bit then. But it's one person's opinion. A few people's opinions. Worry about something that really matters, like gay rights or something where it's TONS of people who don't like a something and it's severely effecting the way of life for other people.

As for the original question, now. I don't personally give much of a crap about genitalia (I agree with the statement of 'to me they're just tools') or gender identity, but say... I would be repulsed by a heavy smoker, because they smell like smoke all the time. I happen to be highly attracted to people in steampunk gear. These are personal preferences and fetishes. I find smoke smells repulsive on someone's clothing, and certain clothing to be highly attractive. Therefore, I choose people based on my certain inane preferences. Some people won't choose fat people. Or red-headed people. Or Asian people. OR WHATEVER. There's a word for people who have sex with people who don't want to have sex with them, and it usually comes with a trial and jail time.

If someone doesn't want you because of their preferences, move along. It's everyone's right to pick a romantic or sexual partner that they are comfortable and compatible with... and that includes whatever fetishes and squicks they may have, whether those are born from psychological, political, or whatever reason.

Would you force a straight man to suck cock? Of course not. He would probably be squicked out by it and the very idea of touching that other guy's cock. Would people assume this meant he was abused by men? Probably not. I know a lot of straight men who want virgin wives because they don't want another cock having been in their wife-to-be. That's cock-by-proxy. Their wife would be tainted and impure! Are people going to tell them they're being bigots? It's no different if a lesbian feels the same way about that cock and their sexual partner.

I guess I'm pan rather then bi- I really appreciate that.

And not for nothing, but men are discriminated against- in child custody laws. I'm a member of a group here in Ky called "Fathers for the Commonwealth" that exists solely to help change sexist laws regarding child placement in Kentucky. The laws on the books clearly state from the "Defense of Family" act that if a child can be placed with the biological mother, then s/he shouldbe.

I used to volunteer at a hospital where my younger brother was a patient, and I saw children there in the pediatric wing with tac marks up and down their arms because their mothers were using them to test heroine- and those women got those children back. The law states that if the biological mother attends one parenting class every six months at a methodone clinic, she can get custody back. The father must attend six weeks of consecutive parenting classes, anger management classes, be drug free (if the mother fails her drug test, her methodone levels are upped) and show no signs of anger- or he can have his child removed. He also has to have a steady job earning at least $200 a week- no such employment requirements are placed on the mother.

Fathers for the Commonwealth is full of men who are tired of handing over money every month for some bitch to spend on her drugs, so we're trying to implement a plan similar to the Candaian system of child support, where the money is placed on a card that cannot be used at ATMS (no cash withdraws) but can be used similarly to an EBT card, except that it is also accepted to pay rent, to pay for doctors, school clothes, household items- basically anything it takes to raise a child. We figure that would make it more difficult (though not impossible, I've seen people sell food stamps for $.50 on the dollar to buy drugs with) for the money not to benefit the children.

Hell, we had to fight tooth and nail for paternity leave!

There are lots of ways that men are discriminated against, most of them having to do with childrearing. The main point I want to address is that the welfare of the child should be the main priority, not the gender of the parent.

Also, where is all this "bisexual guys deal with it" attitude coming from? I understand that some people are really abrasive, but what did I do to piss everyone off? I gave my honest opinion just like everyone else...


BTW, if a guy said he'd only sleep with a virgin, I would totally call him a bigot. And an idiot. I've never actually met a man like this- but especially if there were no women there, yeah, I would totally make fun of him, probably for as long as I knew him. But that's just because it's so far from the realm of what I'm used to, and what those around me are used to, that we would think it was funny and odd; and ask any man here, guys like to rag on each other. We don't really get insulted by it, we just do it. That's why we'll say, "fuck you!" to each other a lot, punch each other in the arm, ect. We don't really give as much of shit, I guess.

 

[girlsmiley]

People take offense when you insult them as a group, generally. I get snippy, for example, when someone insinuates that women only belong in the kitchen, pregnant, submissively giving blowjobs to their Domly Master Sir.

And I'm sorry if I'm a bit snippy, but to the guys, please, seriously. All women get tons of shit comments like "are you on your period?" and "go make me a sandwich." You can live with a few generalized descriptions of the male gender from lesbians. Congratulations. Now you know for a short little bit of time on the internet what it's like to be female: insulting generalizations regarding your gender, only you're only getting it from lesbians and feminists and I get it from pretty much any guy who likes the same fandom crap that I like. It's the sacrifice I must make to talk about Star Wars and comic books, and it's the sacrifice you must make if you want to talk about lesbians.

Now, I do agree with MrsCCfromRC's post on how we should judge people for who they are, not what they are. That's why I'm pansexual. (Someone asked the difference. Bi means 'two', and generally rules out transexuals. Pansexuals are attracted to people regardless of their gender identity. Bisexuals are attracted to both gender identities. It's kind of like the earlier statement about seeing genitalia as just tools... I view pansexuality as a sort of not-seeing-gender, just a person. It has nothing to do with polyamory or multiple partners at the same time!)

Unfortunately, not everyone is like that. That's why the discord is already there. When everyone is considered equal no matter their gender identity, sexuality, religion, race, job, age, weight, interests, appearance, then maybe there will be no discord. It will not happen, and therefore we'll make sweeping generalizations: kids will be kids, no fat chicks, Christians are bigots, Asians are better at math and music, bisexuals are promiscuous, men never ask directions, women are better caregivers, etc, etc. Not that these things are always right for every person, but there's been enough to make that stereotype in someone's mind. Everyone probably generalizes for something, whether it's automatically assuming someone fat will be diabetic if they keep it up, or that bisexuals aren't monogamous, or that kids are just 'like that'. Don't waste your time being offended by it. So one lesbian hates men! Who cares? The funny thing is, men aren't being oppressed. Worry about something you can change that will help you. If it was a case of all (most) women thinking men were disgusting pigs, to a point where men were being discriminated against in the workplace and not being paid equally and not being hired for good jobs, yeah, maybe worry a bit then. But it's one person's opinion. A few people's opinions. Worry about something that really matters, like gay rights or something where it's TONS of people who don't like a something and it's severely effecting the way of life for other people.

As for the original question, now. I don't personally give much of a crap about genitalia (I agree with the statement of 'to me they're just tools') or gender identity, but say... I would be repulsed by a heavy smoker, because they smell like smoke all the time. I happen to be highly attracted to people in steampunk gear. These are personal preferences and fetishes. I find smoke smells repulsive on someone's clothing, and certain clothing to be highly attractive. Therefore, I choose people based on my certain inane preferences. Some people won't choose fat people. Or red-headed people. Or Asian people. OR WHATEVER. There's a word for people who have sex with people who don't want to have sex with them, and it usually comes with a trial and jail time.

If someone doesn't want you because of their preferences, move along. It's everyone's right to pick a romantic or sexual partner that they are comfortable and compatible with... and that includes whatever fetishes and squicks they may have, whether those are born from psychological, political, or whatever reason.

Would you force a straight man to suck cock? Of course not. He would probably be squicked out by it and the very idea of touching that other guy's cock. Would people assume this meant he was abused by men? Probably not. I know a lot of straight men who want virgin wives because they don't want another cock having been in their wife-to-be. That's cock-by-proxy. Their wife would be tainted and impure! Are people going to tell them they're being bigots? It's no different if a lesbian feels the same way about that cock and their sexual partner.

This post rocks Noira.

Just tonight, I overheard a guy saying, "She only wants him for his money."
Guys are just getting away with this shit 24/7.

Noira's right. It works both ways. And as Safe_Bet pointed out, women cop a whole lotta shit from "condescending, chauvinistic and sexist" assholes.

So go ahead and cry me a river boys.