A new angle on limits

[Quint]

I don't think this has been broached yet. If it has, just let this thread die a nice peaceful death, and none shall be the wiser.

What happens if a Dominant has more hard limits than their submissive? What if some of these activities are strongly desired by the submissive but they are unable to engage in them because of their Dominant's total disinterest in them?

Example: I've been eroticizing minor bloodplay recently, to the point where it's almost turning into an obsession for me. I have told T about this desire. Due to some serious history which he has told me all about, he is unable to see blood with anything less than horror and sorrow, two very unsexy reactions. This would have to seriously change before he would even consider letting the knife "slip" a little.

So do I grit my teeth and bear it? Have I done enough by letting him know my desires and trusting that if he wants to change this to a soft limit, he will? Or have I already done too much, by perhaps making him uncomfortable by realizing I have a craving he will not fulfill? Obviously, the answers will vary depending on the nature of the relationship involved.

 

[rosco rathbone]

It would be a damnshame if yall couldnt work it out somehow.

 

[Quint]

It would be a damnshame if yall couldnt work it out somehow.

Ya think? It's frustrating! But he DOES give me a little something to make up for it...lots of fantasies in which every hard limit he has is acted out for my benefit. I think he detaches himself from those so it isn't real. (Also helpful in those hard-to-accomplish situations....bloodplay leads rather easily to Wolverine, and that's not exactly likely. Thank gawd for a fantasy life!)

I posed him the question of "put these bodily fluids in the order in which you would most like to see me covered in them." Not much of a toughie which one was last.

 

[Pure]

Interesting question, quint,

Assuming he's decided to give you erotic gratification, why can't he just assign you (for an evening)to be bloodied by someone else?

Some of this was discussed on the 'lists' or 'purpose of sub' thread. My view is that an alleged sub with a 'christmas list,' who has arranged to 'get' those items (from someone, on some occasion), isn't necessarily, in respect of those items, and at that time, submitting. The 'sub' is, in plainer terms, much like a fetishist exercising his or her god-given right to 'get off' how s/he pleases in the hands of an accomodating other.

It's odd to think of the sub combing the literature for exotic 'tortures' and other 'disciplines' that get him or her 'off', and then presenting them to the alleged dom/me with the idea of getting the dom/me to do them.

For some reason this issue, who's in charge, reminds me of an incident: A young boy was visiting, and seemed to take delight in trapping the relatively small dog against the wall with his body, and pressing the dog. I said, "Don't squish the dog." The boy continued. I said, "Do you want to be squished", thinking I would demonstrate 'what goes around etc.' He said "Yes." I told him to lie on the couch. I was going to sit on him, but then of course I realized I couldn't do it too hard. So I partly put some weight on him and let up. He said, "Do it again!" Now he frequently comes up to me, when he's around, as says "Would you please squish me?"

Sometimes here at lit I want to post a boast to the world: our subs can 'take' yours any day of the week, kneeling and with hands tied behind them.

J.

 

[ammre]

I almost have a similar problem, but not really.
I have a wonderful boyfriend and we play a little. He's content with that, and i would like to go a little farther. I've told him of this and we've discussed it but we have never come to a final conclusion or action. I'm not sure if it's a limit of his or if he's just blatently not intrested. Also when he does start going the extra distance that i like, i almost feel weird as if i pushed him there, and i pushed him to do it...
I mean... whips and a little force in bed... as compaired to wanting to be bound, whipped and ravaged... am i asking for too much ?


Why don't you have him do the things that might start blood play.. like if you do play piercing or such.. have him stick the needles in.. but you remove it yourself... if you enjoy blood in the act of sex could you perhaps have it somewhere he won't see or notice all the time.... or maybe give him something else to occupy his time.. slowly ween him onto the idea that blood dons'et necissarally have to mean horror...

 

[Justina123]

Pure said:

Assuming he's decided to give you erotic gratification, why can't he just assign you (for an evening)to be bloodied by someone else?

Just what I was thinking, Pure! That's what Sir would and has done, that way I get my wish fulfilled and he says he enjoys watching too.

And it works two ways, sometimes he can do things with other submissives that are hard limits for me, and I am similarly happy for him.

- justina

 

[BlondGirl]

I am getting the impression, Quint, that this is a relatively new desire for you. If this is the case, please consider waiting a certain time period before diving into this. A similar example, if you wanted a piercing, it would be wise to wait about 6 months to make sure you actually wanted it. If you STILL are aching for something after a delayed time, then you can decide if it is still worthwhile to go for.

No two partners are going to be absolutely perfectly matched and there is always some give-n-take. Pushing your partner in ANY way to do something that he has very openly expressed a repulsion to is immature and downright shitty. Especially since he has explained the context to you.

My personal advice is to let it drop. ESPECIALLY if you are not married (I have no clue about you and your partner), there is no guarentee that you will be together forever and who knows, maybe your next partner will be all into that.

You are also able to practice a bit of this alone. If you really want, get some and do a bit of needle experimenting in privacy to see if this really is your cup of tea.

 

[Quint]

Nice variety of responses.

To clarify, needle play holds 0 interest for me. I'm thinking more light knife play, and the reason why I do not want to do it to myself is because I'm eroticizing the fear from not knowing when he'll cut, if he'll cut--culminating in the cut. Can't really psych myself out like that. The points of "sharing" with someone who will satisfy that particular desire is irrelevant in my relationship with T, which is not one open to sharing. Yet I can see how that would work for many other relationships. And I agree, BG, I would not ever push him or make him feel guilty about not fulfilling this particular desire; that would be quite shitty.

Pure, I understand exactly what you're saying, and I agree with you to a certain degree. I will give your post more thought after class.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Hmmm

That is the main reason I pick subs who I feel are going in the same direction I am.

I have no intention of letting a sub's desires guide my domination.

 

[Quint]

Okay, round three. o)

I believe that you are correct on the strict definition of "submissive," Pure. It is someone whose goal is the satisfaction of their dominant. This in itself is, however, a selfish goal, so I would not say that a submissive in the sense we are using it is "selfless." Therefore, they do maintain a degree of interest in their own body.

However, I would not carry this so far as to say that they automatically assume the dominant will perform acts for their mutual gratification, let alone the gratification of the submissive. That's icing.

From this argument, I'm obviously not a submissive. I am a person who does derive a great deal of satisfaction from providing my partner with whatever he wishes of me, but that is not the end-all goal of my existence. I have desires of my own and I will not hesitate to mention them to my partner in hopes--NOT expectations--that he will reciprocate interest in them. Granted, if too many instances where strong desires on my part are unfulfilled by him, there will be conflict and perhaps too many dissimilarities for a happy relationship to continue. But I'm not going to use that as a threat over his head.

It does not bother me to say that I'm not a submissive in this strict (and accurate) definition of the word. It might have bothered me a few months ago, but I'm past worrying about what others see me as. I have a lot of desires that would go unmet if I did not make myself heard, and I would not be happy in a relationship where those desires were unmet.

Pure and Ebonyfire, would you say that mentioning interests to the dominant is a non-submissive act? To me it is exactly like mentioning "limits," even in the sense that Pure describes them, which is "I would not like to do this at all but as a submissive I will of course do it if you ask me to." I am sharing information about myself with him. I'm not telling him to do it; I'm not trying to control his actions. I merely give him the relevant info and let him decide what to do next.

 

[lark sparrow]

I am also assuming that you had discussed limits with one another, and in the passing of time you found yours changing. I don't think there is anything wrong with open communication, even in uncomfortable areas. If it came down to it though I cannot see choosing any single activity over my relationship with Mistress - there are so many other things to do.

We have a few mutually shared hard limits. For instance, if one of us got the taste for bestiality or incest (which are two hard limits for us both presently) it's quite likely that the one who still found it a moral line not to be crossed would begin to look at the other differently, and feelings may change, the relationship might end if the interested party insisted on partaking of the hard limit activity.

Then there are uncomfortable areas which would be more trouble than they are worth. For instance Mistress was raised Southern Baptist, and in respect for Her family and the beliefs She was raised with (or whatever) if I decided I wanted to specifically and mockingly use religious candles for play, and buy one of those Jesus shaped dildos to get naughty with, this would probably be an area She wouldn't take great pleasure from (not that I would, but it certainly wouldn't interfere with my current religious beliefs and it was the first example that came to mind). So, in this case I wouldn't even suggest we participate because I know it would make Her uncomfortable and She would not appreciate it and see it as an unnecessary act. I suppose if I suddenly took to worshiping Satan and it was part of the ceremony than it would get into Her soft/hard limits, and my 'I need this', we break up category.

In all other areas, one of us may be more eager to try something than the other, but if it's not a hard limit or area of no interest then each make every attempt to give it a try eventually and see how we like it collectively. And although D/s is one of the primaries, there is no doubt or apologies made in the fact that we both wish to pleasure the other, within the control. In the case of activities vs. relationship, if it's not an overwhelming need, the relationship comes first, activities second. Though if in the beginning Mistress had tons of hard limits that I agreed to, and I found my limits were getting fewer and fewer and my needs greater and greater, I assume eventually it would cause a rift between us.

Have you considered or tried the path of roleplaying it with say a cold dull butter knife. Cold metal tracing skin can feel very much like being cut in the right head space and blindfolded. lol This would be better told to your Dom, but...

 

[Quint]

Thank you for replying, lark sparrow; I always learn a great deal from your posts. To answer the last part, yes, there are a variety of mindfuck options that T quite willingly uses to substitute for his hard limits. Very effective, and I'm rather willingly deceived. o)

I too have difficulty imagining a long-term relationship based simply on activities rather than connection or other, "deeper" factors. And yes, in this instance my limits have changed over time--we both have grown in approximately the same direction over these past 9 months, and this is one of the few places where our kinks diverge. This was less a question about me than the theoretical "what if this happens to a D/s couple?" because it isn't serious enough right now for me to be concerned with.

Would you feel less than totally honest if you'd had, for example, Satanic cult fantasies but chose not to share them with your Mistress because of her religious beliefs? Only if it were a rather strong interest? Never?

 

[Pure]

Hi Quinte

you said,
From this argument, I'm obviously not a submissive. I am a person who does derive a great deal of satisfaction from providing my partner with whatever he wishes of me, but that is not the end-all goal of my existence. I have desires of my own and I will not hesitate to mention them to my partner in hopes--NOT expectations--that he will reciprocate interest in them. Granted, if too many instances where strong desires on my part are unfulfilled by him, there will be conflict and perhaps too many dissimilarities for a happy relationship to continue. But I'm not going to use that as a threat over his head.

This sounds like a good analysis.

I think my points about 'submission' are often missed, not necessarily by you. I am not engaged in a normative exercize or saying what a person is to do (prescriptive). I'm simply trying to describe. It's not a _wrong_ is you're part time submitting and parttime getting hot other ways; indeed, maybe parttime you might dominate. I don't have any prescribed formula.

It's the same as if you find someone who says she plays gin rummy, and you find, in play, she collects sequences, not just same numbers. Well, she's playing a different game, maybe something like 'samba.' That's not wrong, it's up to her what
to play. It's confusing to others, maybe, if they say "let's play gin rummy" and she starts this other thing.

I would not belabor the point; I'm sure you got it, but it's so often missed.

Actually too, I'm in the Sadeian tradition, which is to say, roles are fluid. Netzach is a bit similar. So I have no problem if a 'sub' picks up the whip and, by agreement, lays it on the 'dom'; it's just not quite accurate to say that whipping your 'dom is an act of submission.

Keep up the good postings.

 

[lark sparrow]

Would you feel less than totally honest if you'd had, for example, Satanic cult fantasies but chose not to share them with your Mistress because of her religious beliefs? Only if it were a rather strong interest? Never?

Well, that's kind of hard to imagine, but yes, it would eat at me. If it was a strong erotic interest and I felt very conflicted I would probably eventually have to talk to Her about it and hope She had a solution or suggestion in how we deal with it knowing the relationship came first.

If it was a strong interest that I was quite sure I wanted or needed to pursue I would definitely have to tell. I would be terrified in a sense if I knew it was something that directly opposed a strong belief of Hers, but once I have decided something is a part of me, I cannot bear to keep it to myself within close relationships. I really (really!) hate feeling like I have big secrets in close relationships and it will hang over my head and diminish the intimacy and communication (obviously), but I have a near pathological need to be honest about certain things at times lol. I tell on myself too!

I also really enjoy your posts. This thread sparked an interesting discussion between Mistress and I about changing limits and how we think we might react or adapt to them that we wouldn't have had otherwise.