A Grammatical Conundrum

[ShelbyDawn57]

Jesus, you can't even post a joke around here without it turning into a dick swinging contest.

Yeah, for fuck’s sake…

 

[XerXesXu]

Yeah, for fuck’s sake…

I'd write, either 'Yes, for fuck's sake...', or 'Yeah, fu'fuck'sake...'

 

[AG31]

OK, interesting back and forth on "use to" vs "used to," but I've always wondered what the word use/used actually means when used (sic) like this. Googling to get the Oxford Dictionary's thoughts isn't helpful.

adjective

1. 1.
   having already been used.
   "scrawling on the back of a used envelope"
   
   
2. 2.
   secondhand.
   "a used car"

 

[SimonDoom]

OK, interesting back and forth on "use to" vs "used to," but I've always wondered what the word use/used actually means when used (sic) like this. Googling to get the Oxford Dictionary's thoughts isn't helpful.

adjective

1. 1.
   having already been used.
   "scrawling on the back of a used envelope"
   
   
2. 2.
   secondhand.
   "a used car"

It has two different meanings.

"I used to go fishing" means that I fished in the past.

"I'm used to fishing" means I am accustomed to fishing.

In the first instance, we need a way of expressing that it's in the past, so it makes sense to use "used to" instead of "use to," because when you write "I use to go fishing" there's nothing in the conjugation of the verbs to indicate past tense. "Use" is a present tense verb. When you use "use" as in "I use to go fishing" it sounds like you use drugs in the present so you can support your fishing habit. It makes no inherent logical sense as a way of expressing something happening in the past.

In the second instance, "used" is approximately identical in meaning to "accustomed." I'm accustomed to fishing. So, again, for the sake of clarity, conjugation, and harmony with analogous uses, it makes more sense to say "used to."

I can't think of any examples of things I've read in which "use to" has been used. That doesn't mean it hasn't been, but I'm pretty confident to this day that "used to" is still by far the more common way to write it, and it certainly makes more internal sense.

 

[AG31]

It has two different meanings.

"I used to go fishing" means that I fished in the past.

"I'm used to fishing" means I am accustomed to fishing.

In the first instance, we need a way of expressing that it's in the past, so it makes sense to use "used to" instead of "use to," because when you write "I use to go fishing" there's nothing in the conjugation of the verbs to indicate past tense. "Use" is a present tense verb. When you use "use" as in "I use to go fishing" it sounds like you use drugs in the present so you can support your fishing habit. It makes no inherent logical sense as a way of expressing something happening in the past.

In the second instance, "used" is approximately identical in meaning to "accustomed." I'm accustomed to fishing. So, again, for the sake of clarity, conjugation, and harmony with analogous uses, it makes more sense to say "used to."

I can't think of any examples of things I've read in which "use to" has been used. That doesn't mean it hasn't been, but I'm pretty confident to this day that "used to" is still by far the more common way to write it, and it certainly makes more internal sense.

How come the Oxford people don't tell us about this use of use?

 

[melimelissa]

It has two different meanings.

"I used to go fishing" means that I fished in the past.

"I'm used to fishing" means I am accustomed to fishing.

In the first instance, we need a way of expressing that it's in the past, so it makes sense to use "used to" instead of "use to," because when you write "I use to go fishing" there's nothing in the conjugation of the verbs to indicate past tense. "Use" is a present tense verb. When you use "use" as in "I use to go fishing" it sounds like you use drugs in the present so you can support your fishing habit. It makes no inherent logical sense as a way of expressing something happening in the past.

In the second instance, "used" is approximately identical in meaning to "accustomed." I'm accustomed to fishing. So, again, for the sake of clarity, conjugation, and harmony with analogous uses, it makes more sense to say "used to."

I can't think of any examples of things I've read in which "use to" has been used. That doesn't mean it hasn't been, but I'm pretty confident to this day that "used to" is still by far the more common way to write it, and it certainly makes more internal sense.

And I used to fuck, and I was used to fuck would be D/s reflections on a broken relationship ?

Méli

 

[SimonDoom]

How come the Oxford people don't tell us about this use of use?

I don't know. Both definitions/uses can be found in the American Merriam-Webster dictionary. Maybe it's more of an American thing.

Wrinkle on what I wrote before: M-W gives an example of "use" being used without the "d":

"He didn't use to smoke."

In this case the use of "did not" makes the past tense clear, so "used" would be duplicative and "use" makes more sense.

 

[melimelissa]

How come the Oxford people don't tell us about this use of use?

Too busy fucking with commas? Méli

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

How come the Oxford people don't tell us about this use of use?

Oh, for fuck sake, now I have to worry about the present and past tense of the verb use, too???
Wait, should I have used 'for fuck's sake?'

 

[yowser]

How come the Oxford people don't tell us about this use of use?

They do.

IV.21.
intransitive. With to-infinitive (formerly also †for to and infinitive; also occasionally (chiefly Irish English) with bare infinitive). To be accustomed or wont to do something. Also with to be and other verbs indicating a state, condition, form, place, etc. (in early use frequently of inanimate objects). Now usually in past tense (see sense IV.21b).

latest citation:

1982: If they used to visit here a little more often, they would be aware of the appalling conditions that we are faced with.

 

[AG31]

They do.

IV.21.
intransitive. With to-infinitive (formerly also †for to and infinitive; also occasionally (chiefly Irish English) with bare infinitive). To be accustomed or wont to do something. Also with to be and other verbs indicating a state, condition, form, place, etc. (in early use frequently of inanimate objects). Now usually in past tense (see sense IV.21b).

latest citation:

1982: If they used to visit here a little more often, they would be aware of the appalling conditions that we are faced with.

Thanks. How come the Google people don't tell us that the Oxford people say this... Sigh...

 

[TheLobster]

FWIW I would definitely never use (hah!) “use to” in the present. It’s too confusing, and there many better options like “usually”, “normally”, “typically”, etc.

 

[XerXesXu]

FWIW I would definitely never use (hah!) “use to” in the present. It’s too confusing, and there many better options like “usually”, “normally”, “typically”, etc.

So, those are words you usually/normally/typically use to explain why you never need use 'use to' in the present.

 

[Britva415]

"On accident" vs. "by accident."

I guess they're both "not-wrong" but one of them sure sounds wrong to me.

 

[TheLobster]

"On accident" vs. "by accident."

I guess they're both "not-wrong" but one of them sure sounds wrong to me.

“On accident” is equally wrong as “by purpose”, and yet the latter somehow sounds infinitely worse.

 

[UKgreyas]

Jesus, you can't even post a joke around here without it turning into a dick swinging contest.

I bet you 'used' to be able to.

I have no dog in this fight.

I know the correct answers, but it's fun watching people who don't argue and profess that they do.

Plus I ain't entering a dick swinging contest with this tiny little thing.

 

[SpicyBean99]

Dear Grammar Police,

I regret to inform you that your silence on this matter has caused widespread syntactic distress and the unnecessary misplacement of apostrophes. For fuck’s sake, do better.

Warm regards,

A weary soul in the trenches of forum grammar warfare.

 

[SimonDoom]

Dear Grammar Police,

I regret to inform you that your silence on this matter has caused widespread syntactic distress and the unnecessary misplacement of apostrophes. For fuck’s sake, do better.

Warm regards,

A weary soul in the trenches of forum grammar warfare.

On behalf of the Grammar Police, I'm pleased to say I provided an answer, and no further discussion is necessary.

Those wishing to express gratitude can contribute to the Grammar Police Fund.

Sincerely,

Capt. S. Doom, GPD. "Correctness with a smile."

 

[MajorRewrite]

I vote “for fucks’ sake” to include all fucks instead of just one somewhat arbitrary fuck.

Unless, of course, no fucks are given.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

The question opined was moot
but opinions flowed forsooth
Whether fucks or fuck
I've no such luck
I'll take either or both, in truth

 

[ElectricBlue]

Thanks. How come the Google people don't tell us that the Oxford people say this... Sigh...

Google is American, Oxford is British.

 

[Bramblethorn]

When you use "use" as in "I use to go fishing" it sounds like you use drugs in the present so you can support your fishing habit.

It might read like that in written English, which is of course the AH's usual focus. But in spoken English, the rhythms are different.

Try saying "I use drugs to go fishing" and then "I used to go fishing" aloud, and listen to the rhythms.

In the former, you will probably find yourself leaving a very small pause in between "use" and "drugs", because that's a thing we tend to do in between a transitive verb and its object. When we convert that transitive use to intransitive by eliding "drugs", the pause is likely to remain, leaving us with daylight between "use" and "to".

However, there is no such pause between "used" and "to" in the second example. Indeed, the whole "use to"-as-past-tense thing depends on that lack of pause. As discussed in this paper, the vernacular change of "used to" into "use to" happens through an assimilation process: "The articulation points in the mouth for d and t are so close that when d precedes t, the two sounds are assimilated to t." The assimilation doesn't add a pause, so we're left with "use to" spoken like a single word, no pause in the middle.

AFAICT, past-tense "use to" is most commonly encountered in African-American Vernacular English. I don't encounter AAVE very often, but on the occasions where I have heard that version of "use to" the rhythm is pretty easy to distinguish from the "use [drugs] to" meaning.

 

[Bamagan]

Dear Grammar Police,

I regret to inform you that your silence on this matter has caused widespread syntactic distress and the unnecessary misplacement of apostrophes. For fuck’s sake, do better.

Warm regards,

A weary soul in the trenches of forum grammar warfare.

Here in the states, we have an organization called the VFW, short for Veterans of Forum Wars. You'll be inducted as an honorary member.
(Only click the link if you care about knowing what VFW actually stands for.)

 

[MelissaBaby]

Just spitballin’ here, but maybe if we have a huge national organization called the Veterans of Foreign Wars , we might be having too many foreign wars.

 

[Bamagan]

Just spitballin’ here, but maybe if we have a huge national organization called the Veterans of Foreign Wars , we might be having too many foreign wars.

Might be; definitely not looking to dispute you. Slightly preferable to domestic ones, though.
Hopefully I haven't sent this spiraling into lockdown for the price of a pun.