a good sub?

[YourCaptor]

'pat' is a construct for purposes of discussion. happily obedient.

many parts of her were unspecified, so people can 'project' what they like, and discuss.

i quite admire a number of discussants, here, including osg. i have no wish to question them as persons, or their choices.

Well it was a personal question, maybe it didn't lead to what you expected. You can always try rephrasing.

 

[BeachGurl2]

Well it was a personal question, maybe it didn't lead to what you expected. You can always try rephrasing.

I think I understand where Pure was going with the question, though, YC. Because it's similar to something I asked you awhile back in the thread. I'll try to elaborate a bit on my perspective and see if it helps a bit. Although I can't speak for Pure, I think I get where he's heading.

Being submissive, I obviously don't know first hand the true allure of a submissive for a Dominant. But I know what I like, and I probably project that when thinking about what might make a sub attractive or unattractive. The way I see it, mindless submission isn't attractive. A sub who blindly obeys, exhibits no real will of his/her own, exhibits little to no spirit, just doesn't seem to be someone who would interest a D-type. Sure you can get her to do whatever you want, she's not going to get all PMSy or bratty on you. She's not going to try to manipulate her way. But she's also not going to express an opinion. She's not going to give you any challenge.

In my mind, a submissive who is thoughtful, who has opinions and a brain, who has a personality and a sense of humor, and who sometimes is human enough to pitch a fit, seems to me would be a much more attractive sub. Sure, I'd guess there are times when you just want to gag her and make her sit in the corner so you can get some peace and quiet, but ultimately, I would think someone like that would be infinitely more attractive.

I guess I wonder what the value in submission would be for someone as I imagine Pat to be - someone who just blindly obeys because that's what they've been taught. If she's blindly obeying everyone, maybe occasionally making a stab to stand up for herself, but backing down quickly when getting any resistance, what value does her submission to YOU hold? She's not giving you anything she's not willingly giving to every other person she encounters, except maybe sex.

And I think that's the key for me with the entire Pat scenario. If she does submit to a specific someone, she's still not giving him anything she hasn't already given to everyone else she's ever encountered. When I think of Pat, I think of many TV and movie caricatures of wives of the overbearing, ultra-religious, male superior idiots we see all the time. The woman who quietly does every single thing he tells her to do, never speaks unless spoken to, even when they're alone, basically just sits there perfectly still until he has need for her. While I am very naturally service oriented, lean very hard toward slave, I'll still never be that woman. And I have no real respect for her. How could I?

Wow, I've really gone off on a bit of a tangent there, but that's been where my question to you about it has come from. I don't know if Pure is in the same ballpark with his question or not, but I get the feeling that he may be.

 

[Pure]

note to beach gurl

yes, those points are just what i had in mind. i think my owner appreciates that i am not on my knees before every Thomasina, Dicoleena, and Harina.

further there is the issue that part of the joy of wielding power is NOT just in saying "jump" and hearing "how high, master?" but also in saying "let's put this needle through ...; how does that make you feel?" and hearing "i'm terrified, master."

ADDED: this is only to say the my owner and beach gurl's master have similar tastes. we are not looking for a universal answer or standard as to what PYL and pyl should be.

--
note to y c,

i think my question is leading to a useful discussion; there is no 'right' or expected answer.

 

[Netzach]

yes, those points are just what i had in mind. i think my owner appreciates that i am not on my knees before every Thomasina, Dicoleena, and Harina.

further there is the issue that part of the joy of wielding power is NOT just in saying "jump" and hearing "how high, master?" but also in saying "let's put this needle through ...; how does that make you feel?" and hearing "i'm terrified, master."

--
note to y c,

i think my question is leading to a useful discussion; there is no 'right' or expected answer.

That kinds of hits on a major dichotomy in styles.

Most people I know value emotional transparency (the second scenario) over all else. If they hate it they should say so, they must withold nothing, etc etc.

I know H. I can tell well when he hates it. Really well. I expect him to feign enjoyment, albeit badly. I expect him to stuff it and do what he's told at least some of the time. Because it's fun.

I still enjoy, and think there IS a place and time for the bottom to maybe be scared witless, but not care to trouble me with it, and put on his game face, and THANK me in advance for whatever he may find utterly repulsive.

If nothing else, I want the amusement. I want the amusement of someone trying to hold onto his dignity, I want the amusement of someone who says horses are piglets if I point at one and say that's so.

 

[ownedsubgal]

**apologies for the ramble**

I think I understand where Pure was going with the question, though, YC. Because it's similar to something I asked you awhile back in the thread. I'll try to elaborate a bit on my perspective and see if it helps a bit. Although I can't speak for Pure, I think I get where he's heading.

Being submissive, I obviously don't know first hand the true allure of a submissive for a Dominant. But I know what I like, and I probably project that when thinking about what might make a sub attractive or unattractive. The way I see it, mindless submission isn't attractive. A sub who blindly obeys, exhibits no real will of his/her own, exhibits little to no spirit, just doesn't seem to be someone who would interest a D-type. Sure you can get her to do whatever you want, she's not going to get all PMSy or bratty on you. She's not going to try to manipulate her way. But she's also not going to express an opinion. She's not going to give you any challenge.

In my mind, a submissive who is thoughtful, who has opinions and a brain, who has a personality and a sense of humor, and who sometimes is human enough to pitch a fit, seems to me would be a much more attractive sub. Sure, I'd guess there are times when you just want to gag her and make her sit in the corner so you can get some peace and quiet, but ultimately, I would think someone like that would be infinitely more attractive.

I guess I wonder what the value in submission would be for someone as I imagine Pat to be - someone who just blindly obeys because that's what they've been taught. If she's blindly obeying everyone, maybe occasionally making a stab to stand up for herself, but backing down quickly when getting any resistance, what value does her submission to YOU hold? She's not giving you anything she's not willingly giving to every other person she encounters, except maybe sex.

And I think that's the key for me with the entire Pat scenario. If she does submit to a specific someone, she's still not giving him anything she hasn't already given to everyone else she's ever encountered. When I think of Pat, I think of many TV and movie caricatures of wives of the overbearing, ultra-religious, male superior idiots we see all the time. The woman who quietly does every single thing he tells her to do, never speaks unless spoken to, even when they're alone, basically just sits there perfectly still until he has need for her. While I am very naturally service oriented, lean very hard toward slave, I'll still never be that woman. And I have no real respect for her. How could I?

Wow, I've really gone off on a bit of a tangent there, but that's been where my question to you about it has come from. I don't know if Pure is in the same ballpark with his question or not, but I get the feeling that he may be.

oddly, this post has strongly effected me since i first read it last night. probably the chief emotion raised by the above words is just "hurt." which again is very odd, especially as those words were not directed to me and moreover they come from a faceless stranger on the internet. but hurt is what they make me feel, nonetheless. it hurts that so many people seem to find my type of submission to be worthless and undesireable, it hurts that so many cannot understand what value a Dominant could possibly find in a submissive like me, it hurts that there are so few voices from the other side letting the world know just what makes such a submissive special.

this thread overall, but particularly the words stated by BeachGurl here, have served as a stark reminder of just how fortunate i was to find and be claimed by my Master, who seems to be the "rare" type of Dominant who desires only what he would label as a natural submissive. i was so upset last night over all this that i went to my Master and had him read the post and i asked him some of the same questions that BeachGurl posed to YourCaptor: what value do you find in a submissive like "pat"? who is inclined to submit to all? who isn't a "challenge"? what do you get from such a submissive that she isn't giving to anyone else who demands it of her?

Daddy's response was that he needs and desires a mate whose submission is pure. He said that if he wanted a woman who would bend to his will at some times, resist him at others, he would have continued on with vanilla relationships. He used an analogy relating to parenting: there are some parents who will tell their 13 yr old "clean your room," and are perfectly fine with receiving a response of "i'll get to it in a minute mom/dad." but when he tells his 13 yr old "clean your room," he expects a yes, Sir and for the kid to get off his rump immediately and go clean his frickin room. likewise with a submissive or slave, he has no desire to be with someone who is going to try to push him, or test him (which he views as manipulation), or resist him in any way. His will is to be followed always, without question or hesitation. that was one of the very first lessons he instilled in me when i became his.

another lesson was "no resistance." which refers not just to him but to the world in general, especially men. when he found me, already my submission was automatic, instinctive, reflexive. He found this to be a beautiful and precious quality, and sought to enhance it. so those times when i would have put up some semblance of resistance or fight, he trained me to surrender immediately. "no" was to be absent not just from my lips, but from my thoughts as well. why? because that is the sort of submission he finds most valuable, most beautiful. He said he has no desire to own a woman who, upon releasing her from his leash, he can sic on the world like a doberman. instead he would rather a woman's submission remain pure, and leave the tasks of protection and control to him.

when i obey the will of another, they are getting only a reaction. a sneeze because they tickled my nose with a feather. but when i obey the will of my Master, he is getting my very soul. He understands this and doesn't feel the two can even be compared.

it is sad that some equate natural submission with mindlessness, lack of personality, will or spirit. that we are drooling zombies just sitting and waiting to be used or for the next command. my Master would have no use for a girl who lacked life, spirit, or a healthy intellect. but he also would have no use for a girl whose submission did not resonate in all aspects of her life, or who would ever dream of resisting him or challenging him. for him, that is why he turned away from vanilla, and why he could only be fulfilled as an Owner.

still, likely many will never understand my Master and why he or any Dominant finds a "pat"-like submissive so valuable. just as my Master will never understand the value some Dominants find in a submissive who resists or whose submission is limited to one person only. as he says, "to each his own." but i cannot even begin to express how grateful i am to him for choosing me, and how grateful i am to no longer be single and hopeless, hearing and reading things like BeachGurl and Pure have expressed here and falling into despair, sure that they were right and no good Dominant would ever want one like me.

 

[intothewoods]

Neither personality is better or worse as a person. It's all just personal preference. Some people like bald guys, and some don't. Same thing.

 

[Pure]

note to osg

hi,

as i said, above, "pat" is a construction; indeed i furnished only a sketch that people filled in, each in a different way. so people are reacting to what they put into the blanks. you will note that many people said pat was without spirit or that she gave in to everyone. yet i never said that.

nor did i say pat was 'a natural submissive'; i wanted to avoid that issue.

i've always enjoyed interacting with you, and i have no comment on your life choices. indeed you will recall times in the past where you and i, against the majority, have shared many viewpoints, e.g. on the difficulty of defining abuse.

stick around and keep posting.

osg how grateful i am to no longer be single and hopeless, hearing and reading things like BeachGurl and Pure have expressed here and falling into despair, sure that they were right and no good Dominant would ever want one like me.

pure: i did not say this, or wish to suggest it. dominant persons have different tastes, as witness Your Captor compared to Netzach. i simply said, or intended to say, that my owner had the same tastes as beach gurl's master.

 

[YourCaptor]

I think I understand where Pure was going with the question, though, YC. Because it's similar to something I asked you awhile back in the thread. I'll try to elaborate a bit on my perspective and see if it helps a bit. Although I can't speak for Pure, I think I get where he's heading.

Being submissive, I obviously don't know first hand the true allure of a submissive for a Dominant. But I know what I like, and I probably project that when thinking about what might make a sub attractive or unattractive. The way I see it, mindless submission isn't attractive. A sub who blindly obeys, exhibits no real will of his/her own, exhibits little to no spirit, just doesn't seem to be someone who would interest a D-type. Sure you can get her to do whatever you want, she's not going to get all PMSy or bratty on you. She's not going to try to manipulate her way. But she's also not going to express an opinion. She's not going to give you any challenge.

In my mind, a submissive who is thoughtful, who has opinions and a brain, who has a personality and a sense of humor, and who sometimes is human enough to pitch a fit, seems to me would be a much more attractive sub. Sure, I'd guess there are times when you just want to gag her and make her sit in the corner so you can get some peace and quiet, but ultimately, I would think someone like that would be infinitely more attractive.

I guess I wonder what the value in submission would be for someone as I imagine Pat to be - someone who just blindly obeys because that's what they've been taught. If she's blindly obeying everyone, maybe occasionally making a stab to stand up for herself, but backing down quickly when getting any resistance, what value does her submission to YOU hold? She's not giving you anything she's not willingly giving to every other person she encounters, except maybe sex.

And I think that's the key for me with the entire Pat scenario. If she does submit to a specific someone, she's still not giving him anything she hasn't already given to everyone else she's ever encountered. When I think of Pat, I think of many TV and movie caricatures of wives of the overbearing, ultra-religious, male superior idiots we see all the time. The woman who quietly does every single thing he tells her to do, never speaks unless spoken to, even when they're alone, basically just sits there perfectly still until he has need for her. While I am very naturally service oriented, lean very hard toward slave, I'll still never be that woman. And I have no real respect for her. How could I?

Wow, I've really gone off on a bit of a tangent there, but that's been where my question to you about it has come from. I don't know if Pure is in the same ballpark with his question or not, but I get the feeling that he may be.

I think a major misconception here is that Pat has no will, when it is Pats will that drives Pat to submit. Pat does not do this just out of the blue, Pat does it because it is what Pat does. Pat seems to have taken on an image of someone moping around all day not doing much of anything, but for all you know Pat could be extremely peppy and bubbly. Pat is by no means a vegetable.

Challenge appears to be another key word. I don’t want my sub/slave to challenge my power, she may challenge my opinion all she wants, I appreciate that, but when I say shut it, she shuts up. Resistance, in my eye, is just a nuisance… unless it is so pitiful that it is adorable.

I get no thrill out of knowing they are forcing themselves to go against their own will, to me that would just signal that they are not the person I have been looking for.

I don’t want a brat who I have to discipline, I want a women who can thrive on what I give her.

The value in Pats submission… simply that I like Pat that way, it triggers my affection. That alone gives Pat value beyond comparison to any other.

 

[BeachGurl2]

I think that both OSG and YC have misconstrued what I've said above so I'll try to clarify.

OSG, I'm very sorry that my post was hurtful to you in any way. I certainly never intend to inflict pain on another. And never intend for anything I say to in any way offend or harm another. That is never what I want when expressing my opinion.

First, I was very clear to say that my perception of Pat is someone without spirit or will of her own. And like Pure, I very much enjoy reading your posts because they are always thoughtful and display someone with an opinion that is well thought out. OSG, I am, in most situations, very submissive. I defer to most people. I avoid confrontations and prefer not to rock the boat. Unless it's necessary. There is a difference between someone without will or spirit blindly walking through life passively accepting everything, fair or not, and what you describe above. Blindly submitting to all, under all situations, literally sitting in a corner waiting for life to happen to them, is my impression of Pat. That was MY perception of Pat, no one else's. Some have seen her in a similar way, but others have disagreed with that perception. That's how life works.

Second, YC, I never said that subs should be bratty. I hate bratty, manipulative subs. Frankly, they annoy me and get on my nerves. And I never suggested that they should 'challenge your power'. I used the word 'challenge' not to imply bratty or rebellious, but to suggest someone who has a strong will, a strong spirit. Someone who challenges your mind, not your power.

Wow, it's interesting how much that was never intended can apparently be taken from my post. And the impression of me that I believe both of you have taken away from that post. YC, you mention someone submitting against their nature. When I talk about what I imagine to be an attractive submissive, I'm not talking about someone who is going against their natural personality. I have to back up a bit here and try not to take both your post and OSG's personally because I don't believe either of them were intended in that vein either, so forgive me if I sound defensive here.

I have been 'naturally' submissive my whole life. Even as a child. I am a nurturer by nature, which makes me very naturally service-oriented. As I stated above, I avoid confrontation, hate dischord of any kind. When in a strong relationship, I defer everything, and have never once been punished for misbehavior because I just plain don't misbehave. It isn't in me. I do what I'm told. I ask for what I want and if the answer is no, I don't act out or manipulate to get my way. While I want to be protected and taken care of, I am perfectly capable of taking care of myself. Hell, I've been doing it my whole adult life, even when I was married. I am intelligent, I have a career I enjoy and am good at, and I have a brain and opinions. And I want a D-type who desires that and expects it and encourages it. Just as I want a D-type who also cares enough about me to protect me, take care of me, and yes, respect me as a person.

My description and questions were to ask you, YC, what it is that is attractive in that mindless kind of submission. See, when I think of that kind of submission, I literally think of someone who is in most ways pretty helpless. Unable to care for themselves. Unable to think for themselves. I got the erroneous impression that was what Pure was referring to as well. I don't think of that as submissive as much as subservient and helpless - almost victim-like. Apparently, my description fell far short of the mark.

I apologize for upsetting you, OSG, and for offending you, YC. I think it's time I bow out of this conversation.

 

[YourCaptor]

I think that both OSG and YC have misconstrued what I've said above so I'll try to clarify.

OSG, I'm very sorry that my post was hurtful to you in any way. I certainly never intend to inflict pain on another. And never intend for anything I say to in any way offend or harm another. That is never what I want when expressing my opinion.

First, I was very clear to say that my perception of Pat is someone without spirit or will of her own. And like Pure, I very much enjoy reading your posts because they are always thoughtful and display someone with an opinion that is well thought out. OSG, I am, in most situations, very submissive. I defer to most people. I avoid confrontations and prefer not to rock the boat. Unless it's necessary. There is a difference between someone without will or spirit blindly walking through life passively accepting everything, fair or not, and what you describe above. Blindly submitting to all, under all situations, literally sitting in a corner waiting for life to happen to them, is my impression of Pat. That was MY perception of Pat, no one else's. Some have seen her in a similar way, but others have disagreed with that perception. That's how life works.

Second, YC, I never said that subs should be bratty. I hate bratty, manipulative subs. Frankly, they annoy me and get on my nerves. And I never suggested that they should 'challenge your power'. I used the word 'challenge' not to imply bratty or rebellious, but to suggest someone who has a strong will, a strong spirit. Someone who challenges your mind, not your power.

Wow, it's interesting how much that was never intended can apparently be taken from my post. And the impression of me that I believe both of you have taken away from that post. YC, you mention someone submitting against their nature. When I talk about what I imagine to be an attractive submissive, I'm not talking about someone who is going against their natural personality. I have to back up a bit here and try not to take both your post and OSG's personally because I don't believe either of them were intended in that vein either, so forgive me if I sound defensive here.

I have been 'naturally' submissive my whole life. Even as a child. I am a nurturer by nature, which makes me very naturally service-oriented. As I stated above, I avoid confrontation, hate dischord of any kind. When in a strong relationship, I defer everything, and have never once been punished for misbehavior because I just plain don't misbehave. It isn't in me. I do what I'm told. I ask for what I want and if the answer is no, I don't act out or manipulate to get my way. While I want to be protected and taken care of, I am perfectly capable of taking care of myself. Hell, I've been doing it my whole adult life, even when I was married. I am intelligent, I have a career I enjoy and am good at, and I have a brain and opinions. And I want a D-type who desires that and expects it and encourages it. Just as I want a D-type who also cares enough about me to protect me, take care of me, and yes, respect me as a person.

My description and questions were to ask you, YC, what it is that is attractive in that mindless kind of submission. See, when I think of that kind of submission, I literally think of someone who is in most ways pretty helpless. Unable to care for themselves. Unable to think for themselves. I got the erroneous impression that was what Pure was referring to as well. I don't think of that as submissive as much as subservient and helpless - almost victim-like. Apparently, my description fell far short of the mark.

I apologize for upsetting you, OSG, and for offending you, YC. I think it's time I bow out of this conversation.

You are not being cornered BG, your questions are valid and you are very much welcome here.

However I don't think the assumption you make in the bolded text describes a Pat like person. That is the point I was making earlier. The person you are describing is more of a stereotype. Yes characteristics from different Pats may add up to create this view, however it is not an accurate portrayal of Pat like people.

American society promotes that passiveness is weakness to the point where many people don't even question it anymore. According to this view submission is so passive its of the scale, and so a submissive person must be totally dysfunctional. This is a falls assumption.

 

[Pure]

note to all; reply to beach gurl and y c; the issue of 'emotional dependence'

to all;
we have a good topic, and must remember that 'pat' is not real. further there are dozens of possible 'pats', since my sketch really touched on just a couple key areas, e.g. obedience to authority.

ownsubgirl, i make no comments on your person, or personality or life choices. i enjoy your postings and appreciate their thoughfulness.
the issue of the "natural submissive" is, perhaps next door to the thread topic, for my original imagination had it that pat was trained by her parent(s): she was fashioned, so to say, as one who always obeys and doesn't think of resisting. which is not to say she has no thoughts. perhaps another thread could be set up on the 'natural sub.'

in closing, i'd remind everyone that statements like 'pat is depressed' or 'pat is traumatized' or 'pat is without spirit' are people's projections. hence their remarks apply to the projections, not to any real person. pat of the sketch COULD be any number of things, though i gave her a degree of happiness at her job.


===
beachgurl //My description and questions were to ask you, YC, what it is that is attractive in that mindless kind of submission. See, when I think of that kind of submission, I literally think of someone who is in most ways pretty helpless. Unable to care for themselves. Unable to think for themselves. I got the erroneous impression that was what Pure was referring to as well. I don't think of that as submissive as much as subservient and helpless - almost victim-like. Apparently, my description fell far short of the mark.

I apologize for upsetting you, OSG, and for offending you, YC. I think it's time I bow out of this conversation. //

YCYou are not being cornered BG, your questions are valid and you are very much welcome here.

However I don't think the assumption you make in the bolded text describes a Pat like person. That is the point I was making earlier. The person you are describing is more of a stereotype. Yes characteristics from different Pats may add up to create this view, however it is not an accurate portrayal of Pat like people.
American society promotes that passiveness is weakness to the point where many people don't even question it anymore. According to this view submission is so passive it's off the scale, and so a submissive person must be totally dysfunctional. This is a false assumption.
---

Pure: beach gurl, you raise the issue of spirit, as well as 'mindlessness,' and these are certainly valid points. it's of course not possible to answer "is pure's pat, the real pat, mindless?" there was not enough information given. but one can talk about a 'mindlessly obedient sub', understanding that that isn't applied to anyone here or in particular. and your captor is right; there is no reason to ASSUME pat is mindless, any more than that she is, say, afraid of the dark.

y c, you make good points about how the culture treats submissiveness. though fearful leading ladies in westerns are sometimes winsome, they verge on dependent and childlike at times, needing the tough John Waynes to survive.

passivity is another dimension NOT explicity included in Pat. being obedient is not being passive, necessarily. passivity and pacifism are linked in our culture: the one who 'wont fight' is scorned. in my sketch i had pat take basic steps to protect kids; that's one kind of 'fight' she had.
==========

[emotional dependence, reliance, spun off into another thread; what follows]

dependence is another loaded word and scorned trait in our culture. children are trained for 'independence' early on. the child in kindergarten who wants mother's or teacher's help in putting on winter clothing is looked askance at.

there are emotions associated with dependence, though some don't even have names, in our culture. in Japan, amae is prized, for some persons, some situations; it's a kind of childlike love and quasi dependence, i.e. leaning on the loved one, being emotional in seeking for support and protection.

all of us to whom "pyl" applies, whether by birth, training, or choice, have felt this if our submission is applied to (shown in) a loving and/or partnering relationship. is this inferior to American macho style love: "i love you, but ignore my needs, and you're history and i'm out the door whistling a happy tune." i don't think so. some will say "emotional dependence = basket case" or in your captor's words, "= totally dysfunctional". my surrender and devotion to my owner includes a feeling akin to 'emotional dependence,' maybe it's amae, yet i don't feel 'dysfunctional,' by which i think y c means 'so helpless as to lack skills in worldly survival.'

does anyone have any thoughts on 'emotional dependence,' 'dependent love,' and so on, as found, esp. in partnered or longterm pyl's? check the other thread
http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=596935

 

[BeachGurl2]

I have been asked via PMs to not leave the discussion. My intention for leaving was not because I felt cornered or attacked. Quite the opposite, in fact. My intention for leaving was because I never want my opinions to be hurtful in any way to anyone else. I don't want OSG to feel she has to step back because something I've said has been hurtful to her. So I decided I should step back. Since I've been asked by more than one person not to do that, I will stay in the conversation.

But I'm off to see Tim McGraw in just a bit, so my response to Pure's great questions will have to wait until tomorrow. So I'll be back then.

 

[taniaaust1]

**apologies for the ramble**



oddly, this post has strongly effected me since i first read it last night. probably the chief emotion raised by the above words is just "hurt." which again is very odd, especially as those words were not directed to me and moreover they come from a faceless stranger on the internet. but hurt is what they make me feel, nonetheless. it hurts that so many people seem to find my type of submission to be worthless and undesireable, it hurts that so many cannot understand what value a Dominant could possibly find in a submissive like me, it hurts that there are so few voices from the other side letting the world know just what makes such a submissive special.

this thread overall, but particularly the words stated by BeachGurl here, have served as a stark reminder of just how fortunate i was to find and be claimed by my Master, who seems to be the "rare" type of Dominant who desires only what he would label as a natural submissive. i was so upset last night over all this that i went to my Master and had him read the post and i asked him some of the same questions that BeachGurl posed to YourCaptor: what value do you find in a submissive like "pat"? who is inclined to submit to all? who isn't a "challenge"? what do you get from such a submissive that she isn't giving to anyone else who demands it of her?

Daddy's response was that he needs and desires a mate whose submission is pure. He said that if he wanted a woman who would bend to his will at some times, resist him at others, he would have continued on with vanilla relationships. He used an analogy relating to parenting: there are some parents who will tell their 13 yr old "clean your room," and are perfectly fine with receiving a response of "i'll get to it in a minute mom/dad." but when he tells his 13 yr old "clean your room," he expects a yes, Sir and for the kid to get off his rump immediately and go clean his frickin room. likewise with a submissive or slave, he has no desire to be with someone who is going to try to push him, or test him (which he views as manipulation), or resist him in any way. His will is to be followed always, without question or hesitation. that was one of the very first lessons he instilled in me when i became his.

another lesson was "no resistance." which refers not just to him but to the world in general, especially men. when he found me, already my submission was automatic, instinctive, reflexive. He found this to be a beautiful and precious quality, and sought to enhance it. so those times when i would have put up some semblance of resistance or fight, he trained me to surrender immediately. "no" was to be absent not just from my lips, but from my thoughts as well. why? because that is the sort of submission he finds most valuable, most beautiful. He said he has no desire to own a woman who, upon releasing her from his leash, he can sic on the world like a doberman. instead he would rather a woman's submission remain pure, and leave the tasks of protection and control to him.

when i obey the will of another, they are getting only a reaction. a sneeze because they tickled my nose with a feather. but when i obey the will of my Master, he is getting my very soul. He understands this and doesn't feel the two can even be compared.

it is sad that some equate natural submission with mindlessness, lack of personality, will or spirit. that we are drooling zombies just sitting and waiting to be used or for the next command. my Master would have no use for a girl who lacked life, spirit, or a healthy intellect. but he also would have no use for a girl whose submission did not resonate in all aspects of her life, or who would ever dream of resisting him or challenging him. for him, that is why he turned away from vanilla, and why he could only be fulfilled as an Owner.

still, likely many will never understand my Master and why he or any Dominant finds a "pat"-like submissive so valuable. just as my Master will never understand the value some Dominants find in a submissive who resists or whose submission is limited to one person only. as he says, "to each his own." but i cannot even begin to express how grateful i am to him for choosing me, and how grateful i am to no longer be single and hopeless, hearing and reading things like BeachGurl and Pure have expressed here and falling into despair, sure that they were right and no good Dominant would ever want one like me.

ownedsubgal.. your post expressed things i wanted to say. i too see a lot of worth in this kind of submission and there ARE many Doms out there like your own who seek out submissives like yourself... which many refer too as truely natural submissives.

i myself have had two Doms who have liked subs/slaves like this.

i too thou are still a little like Pat.. hard to not submit to O/others as well at times (but this doesnt necessarily mean im going to go against my own Sirs wishes! ). One can be submissive to Others but still pleasing to ones own Dom.
..............

To answer the question on if Pat would make a good sub or not, i think it all depends on the Dom she gets with.. she certainly is submissive in nature. Many Doms love someone like Pat. Who can judge another on if one is a good sub or not.. except their own Dom.. it's just a personal opinion.

i see this Pat as not being entirely stupid as she left when she needed to do so with her children. Pat also enjoyed and was happy serving others as a child so she has qualities there to possibly be a good sub to Another.

With wrong Dom.. her qualities will cause problems thou and in that case she would be a bad submissive for THAT Dom.

i'll use myself for example here.. i currently dont have the protection i need at times from others (cause my current relationship isnt full time) and have a hard time not submitting at times to others. This recently caused me to loose a lot of money cause i couldnt say no to others who took advantage of me (and my Dom isnt happy about this)...
i are seeking out another Dom with my current Ones consent cause He realises i do need someone who can be there for me more etc etc.. so maybe im more needy by having some qualities like Pats. Not good to be about people who take advantage, is it Pats fault there are horrible people about??. (Two of my previous Doms barred me from sites like this cause of my nature and they feared that i'd be taken advantage of, but then baring me from sites and friends who werent really good friends, wasnt an issue either, as they liked the contro. They didnt see that side of me as an issue! and protected me so it wasnt an issue).

As far as someone pushing in front of one in a queue (someone used that example in the posts).. who cares... maybe Pat is laid back enough to be still happy even if she keeps submitting her place in the queue. Pat's used to giving.. so the things most would see as an issue.. Pat wouldnt view it as such. The whole situation is natural to her.

 

[taniaaust1]

i've got a question due to this thread. Is it possible for Pat to be trained out of this, trained out of being submissive to others as well?

im asking as a Dom friend of mine who has been helping me a lot, stated the other day that He is going to try to train this out of me (He's made it like His challenge). i told my own Dom what my friend had said about training this kind of submissiveness out of me.. and He just laughed and said it's all just part of my submissive nature to be submissive to others too, obviously He dont think it can be trained out of me.. it's me, it's who i am.

(Then last night.. i had like my first test with it.. yet again.. i couldnt make choices for myself when another was concerned, so went with flow.. but unlike pat.. i often end up doing things i regret).

i dont think this can be trained out of me, it's how i am?? Are i wrong?? So can Pat be trained out of this??

 

[YourCaptor]

i've got a question due to this thread. Is it possible for Pat to be trained out of this, trained out of being submissive to others as well?

im asking as a Dom friend of mine who has been helping me a lot, stated the other day that He is going to try to train this out of me (He's made it like His challenge). i told my own Dom what my friend had said about training this kind of submissiveness out of me.. and He just laughed and said it's all just part of my submissive nature to be submissive to others too, obviously He dont think it can be trained out of me.. it's me, it's who i am.

(Then last night.. i had like my first test with it.. yet again.. i couldnt make choices for myself when another was concerned, so went with flow.. but unlike pat.. i often end up doing things i regret).

i dont think this can be trained out of me, it's how i am?? Are i wrong?? So can Pat be trained out of this??

If submissive is who you are, then no, although you can be trained to appear as if you where dominant. For example, you can be taught specific ways to control yourself, and how to evaluate choices and pick one, but you will have to use those mechanisms, you can’t just do it naturally.

For submission to be trained out of you, I think you would have to be broken first. That defeats the whole point though, he should just get someone else if he doesn’t like who you are. It would be a shame too, why destroy something so valuable, something so beautiful.

 

[FurryFury]

I think you can be trained to be more assertive.

The big difficulty is that you have to WANT to be trained to be that way.

You can't pull the "I just can't" card or any other cards that stop you, take away your responsibility or power.

You have to make yourself do it with the encouragement and support of your mentor / PYL or whomever is willing to help.

I believe:

No one can help anyone who isn't truly willing to change.

Change is doing simple things that seem incredibly hard long enough that those things become habits and part of you.

Any change is possible if you are truly willing to take those hard little steps toward your goals.

 

[Desdemona]

I agree

I think you can be trained to be more assertive.

The big difficulty is that you have to WANT to be trained to be that way.

You can't pull the "I just can't" card or any other cards that stop you, take away your responsibility or power.

You have to make yourself do it with the encouragement and support of your mentor / PYL or whomever is willing to help.

I believe:

No one can help anyone who isn't truly willing to change.

Change is doing simple things that seem incredibly hard long enough that those things become habits and part of you.

Any change is possible if you are truly willing to take those hard little steps toward your goals.

Great post!

 

[FurryFury]

Great post!

Thanks!