A formal point (about PDC)

[Senna Jawa]

Authors, I'd like to suggest that you do not ask any questions IN ADVANCE of the discussion. They only damage the whole thing. Yes, I humored WildSweeTone (I mean ...tOne), and followed her questions, because I was planning on writing another post, which would show the need of the global context, and the futility of the ad hoc commenting. I regret following the q's all the same--my 2-stage way of convincing you was too convoluted (I couldn't know at the time).

Anyway, if you--authors--have to ask q's then ask them AFTER the main part of the discussion, when it is already dying. This way you will learn more, and you may revive the discussion.

I am still peeking at the board, which by inertia I will do for some time. Otherwise I am out of here. I may still write about my view of Poetry on my own web page. I would prefer to do it under a proper interactive setting but this is clearly not for this board, despite my naive hopes & wishes.

Senna Jawa​

PS. While I will not post anymore here (on the Lit poetry forum and the subforum), I might occasionally post an isolated comment under a poem. This unfortunately means the necessity of giving it a grade/rank/vote. Thus I will limit myself only to (some of) those which by Literotica standards deserve 5 (which is 100% on the Lit termometer).

Uphhh... That's it, folks, be good.

 

[CharleyH]

Authors, I'd like to suggest that you do not ask any questions IN ADVANCE of the discussion. They only damage the whole thing. Yes, I humored WildSweeTone (I mean ...tOne), and followed her questions, because I was planning on writing another post, which would show the need of the global context, and the futility of the ad hoc commenting. I regret following the q's all the same--my 2-stage way of convincing you was too convoluted (I couldn't know at the time).

Anyway, if you--authors--have to ask q's then ask them AFTER the main part of the discussion, when it is already dying. This way you will learn more, and you may revive the discussion.

I am still peeking at the board, which by inertia I will do for some time. Otherwise I am out of here. I may still write about my view of Poetry on my own web page. I would prefer to do it under a proper interactive setting but this is clearly not for this board, despite my naive hopes & wishes.

Senna Jawa​

PS. While I will not post anymore here (on the Lit poetry forum and the subforum), I might occasionally post an isolated comment under a poem. This unfortunately means the necessity of giving it a grade/rank/vote. Thus I will limit myself only to (some of) those which by Literotica standards deserve 5 (which is 100% on the Lit termometer).

Uphhh... That's it, folks, be good.

I see your point respectfully and do not see it. There's no reason to answer why I agree, so I will answer why I disagree. I think if a poet has specific questions, or parts and aspects of a poem that they want looked at, then this is great. Certainly, for myself, who looks at poems in a more symbolic vein, I will not comment on one who only wants format unless they say all comments welcome.

I am sure that you are as, or as not intelligent as the rest of us, and your opinion is one of many. I happen to disagree and agree in part, on your point. IE.I disagree that ad hoc (first reading and tired) comments come from a place where there was not direction in the first place (semi-circular), if you have questions as a poet, why not put it up front and get the answers, or none and then answer?

I personally, did not have questions, but understand as a second PDC poet, that they were necessary to guide people to discuss something. It may not be necessary in the future. However, waiting to ask only means you will get less of what you want to know? And asking later also means people will mistake the questions for defense on the poem. I do understand what you are saying, but a part of me is not yet convinced by your argument.

Just a discussion, as you posed.

( night, night, - half asleep in answering, but I do see some important questions, yet I still don't see your point in waiting to ask )

 

[Tzara]

Authors, I'd like to suggest that you do not ask any questions IN ADVANCE of the discussion. They only damage the whole thing.

However much I may at times disagree with Senna Jawa (and I do and I don't and I do again--it wavers back and forth), I do have to agree with this suggestion. My own post was trying to ask what I thought were "neutral" questions, with the intent of not biasing the feedback I got. My impression is that the questions themselves were an irritant for many of you--perhaps because of their generality and I'm afraid some of you treated my post as if I was posing a riddle. I was not, at least not intentionally, and I'm sorry if it appeared that way.

Future authors submitting to this thread! My recommendation: just post your poem and let people comment as they may. As SJ suggests, if comments drift in such a way as to warrant a targeted discussion, then pursue it at that point.

Just my impression.

Oh, and none of this is in any way intended to denigrate the comments I have received. They have all been useful. All of them.

A writer's goal is to communicate. If the reader does not perceive what the writer thinks s/he wrote, the fault lies with the sender of the message (the writer), not with the receiver (the reader). I hereby apologize to all of you for whatever faults I may have committed as message sender. That's why your comments are valuable.

Mea culpa.

Hmm. So on to more important things than writing: Let's go Red Sox! Or White Sox! Or anyone other than Pinstripes! (Sorry. Playoff baseball.)

 

[wildsweetone]

the 'riddle' was my comment Tzara and i apologise for it. it was my complete lack of skill at understanding what you'd written.


as for the questions... is anyone being tied up and made to answer the questions asked?


you're not adults that you can't pick and choose what you answer, or what you comment on?

questions are a guideline, that's all. if a poet doesn't want any other comments, they can easily state so.

 

[Tzara]

the 'riddle' was my comment Tzara and i apologise for it. it was my complete lack of skill at understanding what you'd written.

No no no! DO NOT APOLOGIZE (er, ISE)!

Writers write. Readers read. It is the writer's responsibility to communicate, not the reader's responsibility to somehow divine what the writer meant.

What I was trying to do with the way I posted this for comment was to, in my clumsy fashion, solicit the kind of reaction I might get from a reader who just happened upon the poem in the pages of (well, this is fantasy, so let's just go for it) The New Yorker. (Is that 1201 yowling with pain in the background? Maybe not. Anyway...)

If someone came upon this poem in some publication, all they would have is the poem itself. It either works or doesn't at that point, solely on its own. So I was trying to get opinions about it without telling you too much about it. But it also seemed too stark to just post it with no comments whatsoever. So, well, my run-on mouth (well, fingertips) took over. All I'm saying is that next time, I would probably just post with no comments whatsoever and see what happens. You guys are the audience. You are always right. You are always right. Readers are always right.

Don't let anyone make you think you're not.

(By the way, people, this is worthy of your comment. Go check it out and comment.)

 

[wildsweetone]

Authors, I'd like to suggest that you do not ask any questions IN ADVANCE of the discussion. They only damage the whole thing. Yes, I humored WildSweeTone (I mean ...tOne), and followed her questions, because I was planning on writing another post, which would show the need of the global context, and the futility of the ad hoc commenting. I regret following the q's all the same--my 2-stage way of convincing you was too convoluted (I couldn't know at the time).

Anyway, if you--authors--have to ask q's then ask them AFTER the main part of the discussion, when it is already dying. This way you will learn more, and you may revive the discussion.

I am still peeking at the board, which by inertia I will do for some time. Otherwise I am out of here. I may still write about my view of Poetry on my own web page. I would prefer to do it under a proper interactive setting but this is clearly not for this board, despite my naive hopes & wishes.

Senna Jawa​

PS. While I will not post anymore here (on the Lit poetry forum and the subforum), I might occasionally post an isolated comment under a poem. This unfortunately means the necessity of giving it a grade/rank/vote. Thus I will limit myself only to (some of) those which by Literotica standards deserve 5 (which is 100% on the Lit termometer).

Uphhh... That's it, folks, be good.

if one posts a poem and leaves it totally up to the others to comment willy nilly, is the poet avoiding owning up to the shortcomings they have with their writing?

what is the main reason in asking for a critique?

- is it to get diverse feedback?
- is it to get specific feedback on specific needs?
- is it for an ego trip?

my guess is that only each individual poet will know the kind of feedback they require. therefore each will have to be posted with or without prompts/questions as each individual poet decides.

i posted my questions because i had areas that i wanted to make sure i had feedback on.

senna jawa, other comments were, and always are, welcome.



Tzara, i have a feeling that any New Yorker reader is going to have about 100 iq points more than me. so that gets one of us off the hook for my bad reading.

...there are many variations of 'right'.

 

[twelveoone]

Authors, I'd like to suggest that you do not ask any questions IN ADVANCE of the discussion. They only damage the whole thing. Yes, I humored WildSweeTone (I mean ...tOne), and followed her questions, because I was planning on writing another post, which would show the need of the global context, and the futility of the ad hoc commenting. I regret following the q's all the same--my 2-stage way of convincing you was too convoluted (I couldn't know at the time).

Anyway, if you--authors--have to ask q's then ask them AFTER the main part of the discussion, when it is already dying. This way you will learn more, and you may revive the discussion.

I am still peeking at the board, which by inertia I will do for some time. Otherwise I am out of here. I may still write about my view of Poetry on my own web page. I would prefer to do it under a proper interactive setting but this is clearly not for this board, despite my naive hopes & wishes.

Senna Jawa​

PS. While I will not post anymore here (on the Lit poetry forum and the subforum), I might occasionally post an isolated comment under a poem. This unfortunately means the necessity of giving it a grade/rank/vote. Thus I will limit myself only to (some of) those which by Literotica standards deserve 5 (which is 100% on the Lit termometer).

Uphhh... That's it, folks, be good.

Oh, Dogma
1.)If you are out of here, why should you care?
2.)These questions look like an attempt to avoid an otherwise set rubicon, which may not work for all types of poetry, but still providing a bit of a focus.
3.) What was to prevent you from making a global comment outside of your rigid adhence to lines?
Now lets talk about you not posting here anymore This is a shame on both ends, on everybody else's, because people like you leaving will reduce the place to a lower common denominator, and on your end, because if you are so god-damned right all the time, test it. You may find it is the truth that is a slippery devil that eludes even you.

I understand the reasons that each asked the questions they did, particualry Tzara.

So come back Ol' Senna, we still have an issue about leading the audience, or would you prefer to just bore yourself in isolation, oh Dogmatic one.

 

[The Poets]

As is made clear in the Welcome thread, poets may leave questions or raise issues if they feel like it, or not if they don't. Readers and commentators may respond to those questions and issues if they feel like it, or not if they don't.

 

[flyguy69]

Senna Jawa is right on this issue. The real value in critique lies in the novel perspective of the reader: when the author poses questions they are imparting, even casually, some of their own perspective upon the reader and tainting that novelty. There may be, as he suggests, some value to questions on specific features later in the discussion, but they are of lesser importance and the initial benefit of fresh eyes should not be sacrificed for them.

Whichever head of the moderator spoke is also right, in the sense that the fewer external restrictions on the discussion the better. The structure should result from the author's own discipline. There is probably some benefit to the format some workshops use: authors are not permitted to participate during discussion of their own poems!

Authors, I'd like to suggest that you do not ask any questions IN ADVANCE of the discussion. They only damage the whole thing. Yes, I humored WildSweeTone (I mean ...tOne), and followed her questions, because I was planning on writing another post, which would show the need of the global context, and the futility of the ad hoc commenting. I regret following the q's all the same--my 2-stage way of convincing you was too convoluted (I couldn't know at the time).

Anyway, if you--authors--have to ask q's then ask them AFTER the main part of the discussion, when it is already dying. This way you will learn more, and you may revive the discussion.

I am still peeking at the board, which by inertia I will do for some time. Otherwise I am out of here. I may still write about my view of Poetry on my own web page. I would prefer to do it under a proper interactive setting but this is clearly not for this board, despite my naive hopes & wishes.

Senna Jawa​

PS. While I will not post anymore here (on the Lit poetry forum and the subforum), I might occasionally post an isolated comment under a poem. This unfortunately means the necessity of giving it a grade/rank/vote. Thus I will limit myself only to (some of) those which by Literotica standards deserve 5 (which is 100% on the Lit termometer).

Uphhh... That's it, folks, be good.

 

[annaswirls]

Senna Jawa is right on this issue. The real value in critique lies in the novel perspective of the reader: when the author poses questions they are imparting, even casually, some of their own perspective upon the reader and tainting that novelty. There may be, as he suggests, some value to questions on specific features later in the discussion, but they are of lesser importance and the initial benefit of fresh eyes should not be sacrificed for them.

Whichever head of the moderator spoke is also right, in the sense that the fewer external restrictions on the discussion the better. The structure should result from the author's own discipline. There is probably some benefit to the format some workshops use: authors are not permitted to participate during discussion of their own poems!

What he said, yeah.
Especially the last line.
I think the writer should stay out of it until a week passes. Let it all sink in and react to the comments after all of the critiques have been turned in. Of course, not enforced by the law, just a suggestion.

The questions from the poet are too directive, prescriptive. And you are right, of course, that people can critique how they feel the most comfortable. The poet should be open to all angles, not just the ones that they are coming from.



I gotta go tackle Tzara's poem. I have been putting it off!

Have a nice day.

 

[eagleyez]

Dont let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

If you are so serious about instructing others about their predilictions on a porn site poetry forum, then I think you need to find somethin else to do. Good call Senna Jawa the Hut.

Tah Tah.

 

[eagleyez]

What he said, yeah.
Especially the last line.
I think the writer should stay out of it until a week passes. Let it all sink in and react to the comments after all of the critiques have been turned in. Of course, not enforced by the law, just a suggestion.

The questions from the poet are too directive, prescriptive. And you are right, of course, that people can critique how they feel the most comfortable. The poet should be open to all angles, not just the ones that they are coming from.



I gotta go tackle Tzara's poem. I have been putting it off!

Have a nice day.

I prefer to write than critique. I did enough criticism in academic circles to choke a horse.

It bores me to tears. And its essentially time wasted that could be spent on one's own voice and vision.

Just my opinion.

 

[wildsweetone]

i think it's possible that critiquing is a phase of a writer's life. and we are all at different phases...

 

[eagleyez]

i think it's possible that critiquing is a phase of a writer's life. and we are all at different phases...

True enough.

For instance the critical writings of T.S Eliot are astounding. I prefer them to his poems.

I understand the motivation to comment and lend suggestion.

I just dont have the time I guess. I see beauty in words and will tell a writer such, if it hits me in that special way. But correcting and castigating just aint my thing.

And, Im no poet. No books on any bookstore shelves.

I prefer writing fiction, which I keep close to the vest.

My best to all who endeavor to expression!!

 

[wildsweetone]

I understand the motivation to comment and lend suggestion.

i wish i understood it, i could do with shutting up

lol

 

[SeattleRain]

I prefer to write than critique. I did enough criticism in academic circles to choke a horse.

It bores me to tears. And its essentially time wasted that could be spent on one's own voice and vision.

Just my opinion.

yeah it pretty much sucks, I know.
I figure it is what you do for others if you are looking for it yourself, a part of the community...gotta pay in. In the forum, that is. In New Poems, it is just do what you wanna do, I understand that.


You know, it's like monkeys pickin' nits.
If you ain't got no nits
or can pick yer own
then there is no need to pick your neighbors, y'know?
I don't know, maybe monkeys like to pick nits
but I don't really.

 

[eagleyez]

i wish i understood it, i could do with shutting up

lol

nah,

wrong answer.

EXPRESS.

 

[eagleyez]

yeah it pretty much sucks, I know.
I figure it is what you do for others if you are looking for it yourself, a part of the community...gotta pay in. In the forum, that is. In New Poems, it is just do what you wanna do, I understand that.


You know, it's like monkeys pickin' nits.
If you ain't got no nits
or can pick yer own
then there is no need to pick your neighbors, y'know?
I don't know, maybe monkeys like to pick nits
but I don't really.

good point and understood-

ive forgotten how to submit poems in the submit thingee.

I shoot from the hip in my lame ass thread and warm up the fingers.

I try to default to kindness, so criticism is a tough one for me.

Im better off keeping my alligator jaws shut.

But I dig the communal aspect, even if Lauren thinks im a Butthead.

 

[SeattleRain]

good point and understood-

ive forgotten how to submit poems in the submit thingee.

I shoot from the hip in my lame ass thread and warm up the fingers.

I try to default to kindness, so criticism is a tough one for me.

Im better off keeping my alligator jaws shut.

But I dig the communal aspect, even if Lauren thinks im a Butthead.

yeah sometimes kindness is tellin' your buddy his fly is down



and nothin is lame about your ass or your thread.

of course I am only guessing about your ass
but your writing is the opposite of lame


and if you need directions on how to Submit, I know this girl who might be able to help

 

[eagleyez]

yeah sometimes kindness is tellin' your buddy his fly is down



and nothin is lame about your ass or your thread.

of course I am only guessing about your ass
but your writing is the opposite of lame


and if you need directions on how to Submit, I know this girl who might be able to help

thanks,

Im cookin her dinner and waiting for her to get home right now.

 

[SeattleRain]

that's who I was thinkin'

thanks,

Im cookin her dinner and waiting for her to get home right now.

 

[eagleyez]

that's who I was thinkin'

we just chowed down.

it was poetic.

 

[Angeline]

we just chowed down.

it was poetic.

you're masterful with turkey.

 

[twelveoone]

Senna Jawa is right on this issue. The real value in critique lies in the novel perspective of the reader: when the author poses questions they are imparting, even casually, some of their own perspective upon the reader and tainting that novelty. There may be, as he suggests, some value to questions on specific features later in the discussion, but they are of lesser importance and the initial benefit of fresh eyes should not be sacrificed for them.

Whichever head of the moderator spoke is also right, in the sense that the fewer external restrictions on the discussion the better. The structure should result from the author's own discipline. There is probably some benefit to the format some workshops use: authors are not permitted to participate during discussion of their own poems!

Go read Pat's intial offering in the "Not for the thin-skinned" . I offer that as a rebuttle to your point of workshops. The Authour is the most important part. He has to defend (and amend) his work in the context of his objectives.

(this next not for you Fly, but for others)
To those who refuse to look at things with a critical eye, cripple their ability to write effectively. Off course those that turn a blind eye to other courses, views, die as writers, finding their voices sterile, their vision blind.

Come, back Ol Senna, let us see, You and I. We have much to learn.

 

[flyguy69]

As i said, some poetry workshops require the author to sit back and listen as their poem is discussed. This forces the poem to stand on its own, without the lawyerly skills of the author along in defense. Poems released into the wild must do this.

It can be very helpful for the author to hear this discussion, but it only works if there is, in fact, discussion. In the freewheeling world of Lit that is not guaranteed!

I have never participated in a workshop like that, but it sounds interesting to me.

Go read Pat's intial offering in the "Not for the thin-skinned" . I offer that as a rebuttle to your point of workshops. The Authour is the most important part. He has to defend (and amend) his work in the context of his objectives.

(this next not for you Fly, but for others)
To those who refuse to look at things with a critical eye, cripple their ability to write effectively. Off course those that turn a blind eye to other courses, views, die as writers, finding their voices sterile, their vision blind.

Come, back Ol Senna, let us see, You and I. We have much to learn.