A changed Kitten

[lipsofanangel]

Well, I have no problem with the food chain (especially the part about me, my family and friends being on top of it), but here's how I understood our agreement regarding how to acquire food once we left the state of nature and entered civil society:

I will grow food for myself, my family and any creatures I choose to keep - including kitties - or I will produce some other product or service that I can trade for that food. You will do the same for you and yours. We agree to leave alone those things that exist outside the food production system we have created, to whit, the wild birdies and small mammals, except for certain limited exceptions (such as carefully regulated and limited sports hunting.*)

Did I miss a step there? Because neither I nor any living things under my care have killed a single creature that exists outside the food production system I understood we'd ageed to limit ourselves to. What are all those sports hunting regulations and limits if not part of that agreement?


*There are some other exceptions, primarilly fishing. Not surprisingly, not being subject to property rights (meaning enforceable exclusive use by identifiable persons), fishing in the wild has created a classic 'tragedy of the commons.' But that is outside the scope of this discussion.)



PS. I'm not really such a rigid hard-ass about this - I'm not going to condemn any of my friends over this. But it is an area where some consciousness raising would be a good thing. And I love kitties too, and have a good rapport with them.

It's amazing how these forums can bring about new ways to think of things way above and beyond 'writing fiction'. This is not a bad thing at all! And again, as I've only had indoor cats with the exception of the one I had when I was four, no little woodland creatures were ever hurt by my kitty cats.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Well, I have no problem with the food chain (especially the part about me, my family and friends being on top of it), but here's how I understood our agreement regarding how to acquire food once we left the state of nature and entered civil society:

I will grow food for myself, my family and any creatures I choose to keep - including kitties - or I will produce some other product or service that I can trade for that food. You will do the same for you and yours. We agree to leave alone those things that exist outside the food production system we have created, to whit, the wild birdies and small mammals, except for certain limited exceptions (such as carefully regulated and limited sports hunting.*)

Did I miss a step there? Because neither I nor any living things under my care have killed a single creature that exists outside the food production system I understood we'd ageed to limit ourselves to. What are all those sports hunting regulations and limits if not part of that agreement?


*There are some other exceptions, primarilly fishing. Not surprisingly, not being subject to property rights (meaning enforceable exclusive use by identifiable persons), fishing in the wild has created a classic 'tragedy of the commons.' But that is outside the scope of this discussion.)



PS. I'm not really such a rigid hard-ass about this - I'm not going to condemn any of my friends over this. But it is an area where some consciousness raising would be a good thing. And I love kitties too, and have a good rapport with them.

Rox, do you really mean to tell us you have never set a trap that killed a rat or mouse or other vermin, or swatted a fly or stepped on a roach. I would find that very hard to believe.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Rox, do you really mean to tell us you have never set a trap that killed a rat or mouse or other vermin, or swatted a fly or stepped on a roach. I would find that very hard to believe.

Ah, you cite what might seem like another exception to the model I described, except it's not for two reasons. First, killing vermin is not done for food or regulated sport. Second, they are vermin, definition parasites whose existance in or around my domicile is potentially harmful to me and my property. I kill them in self defence, and get no positive benefit from it. When we entered civil society we did not give up the right to self defense, or defense of our property, and this example falls under both. My kitty slaughtering the woodland creatures falls under neither.

 

[Guest]

Well, I have no problem with the food chain (especially the part about me, my family and friends being on top of it), but here's how I understood our agreement regarding how to acquire food once we left the state of nature and entered civil society:

I will grow food for myself, my family and any creatures I choose to keep - including kitties - or I will produce some other product or service that I can trade for that food. You will do the same for you and yours. We agree to leave alone those things that exist outside the food production system we have created, to whit, the wild birdies and small mammals, except for certain limited exceptions (such as carefully regulated and limited sports hunting.*)

Did I miss a step there? Because neither I nor any living things under my care have killed a single creature that exists outside the food production system I understood we'd ageed to limit ourselves to. What are all those sports hunting regulations and limits if not part of that agreement?


*There are some other exceptions, primarilly fishing. Not surprisingly, not being subject to property rights (meaning enforceable exclusive use by identifiable persons), fishing in the wild has created a classic 'tragedy of the commons.' But that is outside the scope of this discussion.)



PS. I'm not really such a rigid hard-ass about this - I'm not going to condemn any of my friends over this. But it is an area where some consciousness raising would be a good thing. And I love kitties too, and have a good rapport with them.

First - I was kidding somewhat about the small animal carnage - really just responding to your post in a smart-ass manner. All of our cats are indoor critters. We have an enclosed kennel they can access from a basement window but that's the limit of their outside experience. Well, once we've rescued them, of course.

(Exception being one knuckledheaded Tom who got out the front door last week with the below zero temps and happily enjoyed a ten minute chase. But I digress.)

We are a feeding stop for many neighborhood animals - couple of stray cats, many squirrels and more different species of birds than we can count.

So no, we don't believe that overfed house kitties should be allowed to snack at will on the outside wildlife. But if they are primarily outside cats, even if they are pets, what else would you expect? They train to fight, stalk and kill from birth. If their mother was an outside cat she'll also teach them to eat what they kill. If not, they'll be confused after the kill, but it won't prevent them from killing again.

It is the nature of the animal.

I have heard of instances where neighbors have actually killed cats to save the birds that come to their feeders.

That's a bit scary.

 

[TheeGoatPig]

I have heard of instances where neighbors have actually killed cats to save the birds that come to their feeders.

That's a bit scary.

We have the cat and the feeders. He was an indoor cat until the fall, so when we put the feeders back out in the spring...

I wonder how that will play out

 

[rachlou]

We had just moved to Florida when it was time to have "Smokey" fixed. (This is the one we call Crack Kitty.) We asked around and found one of the better Vets in the county to do the work. When we got her home something didn't seem right. She refused to come out of the carrier. Hell she barely responded when I reached in and touched her.

I became concerned when she hadn't moved after four hours. I removed the top off the carrier and was shocked by what I saw. Oh he had fixed her all right. She looked like she had been gutted. She ahd been opened from pelvis to sternum. She also had what looked like stitches on both front paws. Oh it got worse.

I very gently lifted her out of the carrier and placed her on a blanket on the bed so I could look her over. The Vet had fixed her all right, and he had de-clawed her as well. (Not to mention it seems he had somehow managed to break one of her front legs.) I set her front leg and made some phone calls before taking her to the Animal Hospital.

$5K later we got her back again. She still walks with a limp and is even more spooky than before. She will not allow people other than my wife and myself to even come close to her and unfortunately is occasionally incontinent of Stool. (We can't punish her for this as she has absolutely no control of it.) Thankfully for us she remains in one of two places, on top of either my dresser or my wifes dresser. (Both of which I have thickly coated with PolyCoat so they are easy to clean.) She refuses to move away from the dressers and hopped right back on top of them after each of our moves. She allows us to pick her up, but as soon as we do guess what else we have in our arms?

Oh I did sue the Vet and got the money to cover the Hospital Bills. He has also been disallowed from practicing in the state of Florida.

Cat

That is a horrific story! I think the vet in question should have been disallowed from practising EVERYWHERE! He sounds either willfully incompetant or a total sadist. How in the hell did he manage to break the cats leg? I can't even begin to imagine what the poor thing went through.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

First - I was kidding somewhat about the small animal carnage - really just responding to your post in a smart-ass manner. All of our cats are indoor critters. We have an enclosed kennel they can access from a basement window but that's the limit of their outside experience. Well, once we've rescued them, of course.

(Exception being one knuckledheaded Tom who got out the front door last week with the below zero temps and happily enjoyed a ten minute chase. But I digress.)

We are a feeding stop for many neighborhood animals - couple of stray cats, many squirrels and more different species of birds than we can count.

So no, we don't believe that overfed house kitties should be allowed to snack at will on the outside wildlife. But if they are primarily outside cats, even if they are pets, what else would you expect? They train to fight, stalk and kill from birth. If their mother was an outside cat she'll also teach them to eat what they kill. If not, they'll be confused after the kill, but it won't prevent them from killing again.

It is the nature of the animal.

I have heard of instances where neighbors have actually killed cats to save the birds that come to their feeders.

That's a bit scary.

I knew you were just kidding, Sarah - you've got "non-slaughterer of woodland creatures" written all over you. I was just using your post (and this thread) to climb onto a hobbyhorse of mine.

"But if they are primarily outside cats, even if they are pets, what else would you expect?"

Precisely. The idea I'm challenging is the unquestioning acceptance of "outside cats." This concept - "outside cats" - should no longer be accepted. It's an atavism at best, and willful cruelty in bad cases.

Declawing is not an answer - that's a cruelty to the cat. Cat's don't understand when they get 'fixed,' but they do understand when they get declawed, and suffer from the loss forevermore. Plus they are helpless outside without claws.

Bottom line: No one should have "outside cats" in this day and age. If your reaction is "poor kitty!", your sympathy is misdirected. You should instead think, "poor murdered birdie."

 

[Guest]

I knew you were just kidding, Sarah - you've got "non-slaughterer of woodland creatures" written all over you. I was just using your post (and this thread) to climb onto a hobbyhorse of mine.

Who told you about my ass tattoo?

Actually, you have that wrong. I've hunted, all my family hunts. I currently have many pounds of venison in the freezer.

"But if they are primarily outside cats, even if they are pets, what else would you expect?"

Precisely. The idea I'm challenging is the unquestioning acceptance of "outside cats." This concept - "outside cats" - should no longer be accepted. It's an atavism at best, and willful cruelty in bad cases.

Declawing is not an answer - that's a cruelty to the cat. Cat's don't understand when they get 'fixed,' but they do understand when they get declawed, and suffer from the loss forevermore. Plus they are helpless outside without claws.

Bottom line: No one should have "outside cats" in this day and age. If your reaction is "poor kitty!", your sympathy is misdirected. You should instead think, "poor murdered birdie."

If people understood what declawing actually was, in that it removed the first joint of a cat's "finger" not just the claw, perhaps they wouldn't do it.

Little woodland creatures aside, cats live longer and healthier lives if they are kept indoors.

 

[glynndah]

I have three cats, 2 indoor males and 1 outside female. All kitties are neutered. Whenever the female is inside, there are litter box issues, ie, somebody doesn't like to share and uses the floor instead. So the female comes in for long stretches to visit, and then goes out. She has food and water all the time and a nice warm little house on the porch.

I also have many bird feeders. I haven't noticed any difference in the amount of birds visiting or little carcasses scattered about. I'm sure she occasionally kills a mouse or sparrow just to keep her skills up, but most of the time she's content to eat the food provided for her. Of course, I do live out in the country and perhaps she spends her time stalking the meadow for her free-range mousie needs.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Who told you about my ass tattoo?

Actually, you have that wrong. I've hunted, all my family hunts. I currently have many pounds of venison in the freezer.

If people understood what declawing actually was, in that it removed the first joint of a cat's "finger" not just the claw, perhaps they wouldn't do it.

Little woodland creatures aside, cats live longer and healthier lives if they are kept indoors.

Oh, picky, picky. Regulated hunting with scientifically managed limits is fine and dandy with me. Deer need to preyed on for the good of the species, and I'm delighted your freezer's full of them. Even if you don't eat them, trophy hunting is not random, meaningless slaughter, and that's what I'm objecting to.

Roger-that on the declawing.

Nice ass, BTW. (What makes you think I had to be told?)

 

[Guest]

Oh, picky, picky. Regulated hunting with scientifically managed limits is fine and dandy with me. Deer need to preyed on for the good of the species, and I'm delighted your freezer's full of them. Even if you don't eat them, trophy hunting is not random, meaningless slaughter, and that's what I'm objecting to.

Roger-that on the declawing.

Nice ass, BTW. (What makes you think I had to be told?)

 

[SimonBrooke]

Waaah!

Well as I sit here tonight I have a very changed kitten laying in my lap.

Yesterday we brought Magellin to the Vet to fix a leaky Plumbing Problem. He tended to mark his territory not to mention chase after his sisters and mother when they went into heat.

Oh don't!

I shall have to do this to Ivan soon:
http://www.jasmine.org.uk/dogfood/pictures/basso_sm.jpg
and I'm really not looking forward to it. He's ten months now (as against ten weeks in that pic!), and it can't be long... I had to get his sister done four months ago, and I hated it. She was so miserable.

 

[starrkers]

Cats will hunt, regardless of their upbringing.
I have a pedigree Burmese (among others). She was 2 and a half when I got her, had spent her entire life indoors and, I'm pretty sure, a large part of that in a cage. She was kept as a breeding queen and I got her for the cost of neutering because she wasn't producing enough offspring per litter.
She's as clumsy as they come - her jumping ability is slowly improving. When she first came she couldn't jump onto the bed with certain success.
But when we moved into a house with a family of mice, she was the best mouser, dispatching about 5 of the little blighters.

 

[lipsofanangel]

Oh don't!

I shall have to do this to Ivan soon:
http://www.jasmine.org.uk/dogfood/pictures/basso_sm.jpg
and I'm really not looking forward to it. He's ten months now (as against ten weeks in that pic!), and it can't be long... I had to get his sister done four months ago, and I hated it. She was so miserable.

Oh my goodness! What an adorable kitty! I want to just scoop him up and snuggle him!

 

[SimonBrooke]

Also All of my cats are indoor cats. The closest they come to going outside is the screened in Patio. I do this for several reasons not least of which is our living right next to a very busy main road. Almost every day we see a cat or a dog that has been hit by a car. One of my neighbors has just lost her cat in this manner. She let it out to run and it hit the road. This is the third time this has happened in less than a year with her. (Or so I have been informed by other neighbors.) She came over all teary eyed the other day knowing I had more than one cat and wanting to take one off my hands. I refused her without even talking about it. I have put too much time, effort and love into these critters.

I know this is a cultural thing. I know people in the US think it's OK to keep cats indoors and to declaw them. But to me it just seems appallingly barbaric. Cats are territorial predators who naturally have a range of a hectare or two. Hunting and territory maintenance are the essence of their being. If you're going to deny them that.... it's like mutilating people and keeping them in Guantanamo, but for life. Or it seems that way to me.

My two do kill birds. I agree it's a shame. But I'm not going to imprison them or mutilate them to prevent them doing so. In choosing to provide a home for two cats I'm taking those birds' deaths on my conscience... but I do make that choice.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I know this is a cultural thing. I know people in the US think it's OK to keep cats indoors and to declaw them. But to me it just seems appallingly barbaric. Cats are territorial predators who naturally have a range of a hectare or two. Hunting and territory maintenance are the essence of their being. If you're going to deny them that.... it's like mutilating people and keeping them in Guantanamo, but for life. Or it seems that way to me.

My two do kill birds. I agree it's a shame. But I'm not going to imprison them or mutilate them to prevent them doing so. In choosing to provide a home for two cats I'm taking those birds' deaths on my conscience... but I do make that choice.

Do you think you have the right to cause the death of hundreds and possibly thousands of birds and small mammals each year?

The Effects of Cat Predation on Wildlife
from the USFWS Migratory Bird Mangement Office

Americans keep an estimated 60 million cats as pets. Let's say each cat kills only one bird a year. That would mean that cats kill over 60 million birds (minimum) each year - more wildlife than any oil spill.

Scientific studies actually show that each year, cats kill hundreds of millions of migratory songbirds. In 1990, researchers estimated that "outdoor" house cats and feral cats were responsible for killing nearly 78 million small mammals and birds annually in the United Kingdom.

University of Wisconsin ornithologist, Dr. Santley Temple estimates that 20-150 million songbirds are killed each year by rural cats in Wisconsin alone.

Feline predation is not "natural." Cats were domesticated by the ancient Egyptians and taken throughout the world by the Romans. Cats were brought to North America in the 1800's to control rats. The "tabby" that sits curled up on your couch is not a natural predator and has never been in the natural food chain in the Western Hemisphere.

Cats are a serious threat to fledglings, birds roosting at night and birds on a nest. Research shows that de-clawing cats and bell collars do not prevent them from killing birds and other small animals. For healthy cats and wild birds, cats should not be allowed to roam free.

Work with your local humane society, veterinarians and state wildlife agency to enact and enforce free-roaming cat regulations. For more information:

Free Roaming Cats. American Backyard Bird Society, PO Box 10046, Rockville, MD 20849.

Cats: A Heavy Toll on Songbirds. by Rich Stallcup. Point Reyes Bird Observatory, 4990 Shoreline Hwy., Stinson Beach, CA 94924.

Is there a Killer in Your House? by George Harrison, National Wildlife Magazine (October/November 1992).

Beware of Well-Fed Felines. by Peter Churcher and John Lawton, Natural History Magazine (July 1989).

 

[SeaCat]

Well now, where shall I start?

As I have mentioned before all of my Feline Companions are indoor cats. The closest they come to the great outdoors is the Patio. (A screened in 11x20 foot enclosure that opens off the front room.) All but Critter have been raised as indoor cats. The most hunting they do is chasing each other around the place. (Critter was a Feral/Throw away who came into our garage and now resides quite happily with us.)

As I have also mentioned before I do not believe in De-Clawing cats. End of story. Yes I do have two that have been de-clawed. One by a misguided Vet who no longer works in the state of Florida, and one that was de-clawed by his previous owner.

Yes, like others here I am a hunter. Hell I am a Carnivore and I have the paperwork from both my dentist and a battery of Docs. to prove it. (I eat the Rabbit Food via the Rabbit.) You do not want to peruse my freezer!

Oh and Boobs and Brains, how do you know I haven't been "Fixed"?

Cat

 

[Guest]

. . . Oh and Boobs and Brains, how do you know I haven't been "Fixed"?

Cat

BWAH!!

 

[Stella_Omega]

I know this is a cultural thing. I know people in the US think it's OK to keep cats indoors and to declaw them. But to me it just seems appallingly barbaric. Cats are territorial predators who naturally have a range of a hectare or two. Hunting and territory maintenance are the essence of their being. If you're going to deny them that.... it's like mutilating people and keeping them in Guantanamo, but for life. Or it seems that way to me.

My two do kill birds. I agree it's a shame. But I'm not going to imprison them or mutilate them to prevent them doing so. In choosing to provide a home for two cats I'm taking those birds' deaths on my conscience... but I do make that choice.

This is the way I feel, as well. Only- in the US there are so many other things that can happen to cats. Anti-freeze to drink. Cars to be hit by. neighbor's unleashed dogs.

My cats were all feral when I moved into this house, and they've moved in with me They come in and out when they want. We have raccoons, possums and (god I hope not but maybe) coyotes, and these cats do NOT engage these animals. I've lost one out of ten cats in three years.

We have lots of birds, too, hawks and owls, crows, ravens, various songbirds., The cats have killed birds- a hummingbird the other day, and once I'm pretty sure it was a hawk chick once. They kill rats and voles and mice. That's the way it goes, and I dose them with panacure to keep them dewormed...

 

[starrkers]

I'm in Australia and doing my level best to keep my cats indoors at all times (and failing dismally with two of them - one is a semi-feral and the other an old barn/farm cat. Right now I'm contenting myself with locking them in at night).
Our wildlife is in major peril from the predations of cats, both domestic and feral.
Until I discovered the internet I had never heard of declawing, and a more barbaric practice I cannot imagine perpetrated on a pet by a "loving" owner.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Here is what I would ask my Lit friends: If you acquire a new cat, especially a kitten, do not allow it to be an "outside cat." Also, if any of your friends or family acquire a cat, ask them to do the same.

If a cat never goes outside, it doesn't know what it's missing, so it's much better if you never let it get a taste of that 'good life.' It is probably best to have two cats with this regime - they entertain each other, stalk and pounce on each other, etc.

 

[SeaCat]

I'm in Australia and doing my level best to keep my cats indoors at all times (and failing dismally with two of them - one is a semi-feral and the other an old barn/farm cat. Right now I'm contenting myself with locking them in at night).
Our wildlife is in major peril from the predations of cats, both domestic and feral.
Until I discovered the internet I had never heard of declawing, and a more barbaric practice I cannot imagine perpetrated on a pet by a "loving" owner.

Oh I can think of many perpetrated by so called loving owners. Some I have seen and some I have heard about.

Cat

 

[SeaCat]

Here is what I would ask my Lit friends: If you acquire a new cat, especially a kitten, do not allow it to be an "outside cat." Also, if any of your friends or family acquire a cat, ask them to do the same.

If a cat never goes outside, it doesn't know what it's missing, so it's much better if you never let it get a taste of that 'good life.' It is probably best to have two cats with this regime - they entertain each other, stalk and pounce on each other, etc.

Roxanne,

Look up dear lady.

Cat

 

[Misty_Morning]

Hey Cat, whenever I have a cat spayed I have noticed a "clinginess" afterwards. I never allow my cat outdoors, she is terrified of it. She does like watching the hummingbirds through the window...but sometimes she freaks out and runs away....

She is also terrified of the fish in the fish tank.....

But back to the point, I think it is every pet owners responsibilty to have their pets spayed or neutered. I have almost come to blows with one of my sisters because of this (many years ago when I was still talking to her)...

 

[SeaCat]

Hey Cat, whenever I have a cat spayed I have noticed a "clinginess" afterwards. I never allow my cat outdoors, she is terrified of it. She does like watching the hummingbirds through the window...but sometimes she freaks out and runs away....

She is also terrified of the fish in the fish tank.....

But back to the point, I think it is every pet owners responsibilty to have their pets spayed or neutered. I have almost come to blows with one of my sisters because of this (many years ago when I was still talking to her)...

Yes Cats do seem to be more affectionate after they have been fixed.

As I said above, our cats seem fascinated by what goes on beyond the screens and windows, yet they are not inclined to go out there and explore. They seem happy to be where they are. (This includes Critter who was a Wild Child when she met us.)

Yes it is every owners responsibility. The only times I can think of for not having them fixed is if you are breeding them, or if you only have one.

As I said above, here in southern Florida the No Kill Shelters are not accepting Cats regardless of the reasons. The are full. We have colonies of Feral Cats, colonies which take over neighborhoods. These comoies have been increased b the addition of many cats that escaped after the hurricanes.

Cat