A Challenge And A Mission Statement

[IrresistibleBeauty]

I have to be honest--been perusing this site for about a month now, and truth be told, most of the stories here have been rather uninteresting. The plots have been cliches, the characters two-dimensional, the writing so straightforward it is bland and boring. Don't get me wrong--TECHNICALLY the stories are fine, and I am never one to harp on typos and incorrect grammar.

Does nobody know how to catch an sudience with a perfect opening paragraph? With just a few words? Must every story have two pages of set-up?

Does nobody try to put in some distinct characteristics of some o their favorite authors? Not to say my fiction is Pulitzer material, but at least I try to put in elements of Nabakov or Steinman or Joyce or Richard Wright--I let the influences show through into my writing, and as a result I sometimes do away with straight-forward storytelling, the Dick-and-Jane crap I see here, and try to make it art.

I mean, what is the point in a site like this if we do not stretch ourselves in every conceivable way?

I am hoping, just hoping, we are not here just to write smut and masturbate to what we write--if we were to do that, we could save a lot of time by just roleplaying in the chat rooms. I think the point of this is to hone our writing skills using the erotic format. And if that is the case, we as writers, all of us, me included, need to be willing to stretch our abilities, not just write a story we think is cool, but to write something noone ever thought of before. That means not only creating plots that are off kilter or characters that are quirky, but they both must also be rich, conflicted, deep. I have yet to fall for anyone's characters, and that is a shame. A great writer can make you feel what the characters are feeling.

If my aim is too high, forgive me, and I will reconsider my reasons for being here. If all this is is a sophomoric forum for kids who are too shy to read their poetry on open-mike nights at their local coffee shop, if this is just to paint crayon word pictures of pretty girls doing naughty things, if this is just literary masturbation, then I am in the wrong place.

But if there are a few of us that are looking for criticism and are willing to write in bold colors, that are willing to be a little daring and different and take some chances, that want to step out of the cliches and step into heaven, that want their characters to be cared about and their plots exhilerating and their personal styles unique and over-the-top and worth the time in reading, then by all means, we need to get off out duffs and stretch the envelope a little.

Every one of us is an amateur--if we were any good at this we would be writing and making a living of it. But we're not, so we have this forum to exchange stories. Let's make it something worth while.

That is my challenge to you, and I welcome you to call me on it as well.

 

[SexyChele]

With all due respect, I think you are coming down a little too harshly on most writers here. Not all writers here aspire to eventually write "the greatest novel of all time." Many write erotica because, well, they simply liked to. And they like to share their writing with others. Some writers here would like to make a career out of writing to some degree. For others, it is simply a hobby. Some are venturing into the writing arena for the first time, and cliches are what they feel comfortable with. It's mix, as it should be. After all, none of us gets paid for writing here. It's either fun for us, or we are in the place.

As for developing plots, characters, and stories, yes, that is nice. However, there is an audience here, and most of them could care less about such things. It's not that the writers are wanking off to their own storie - hell, I don't even think my contributions are all that erotic - but we are writing to the guy or gal on the other side of the computer screen. One of the first rules in writing is: know your audience. Typically, for me, my audience is primarily male, with a good sprinkling of females, who are reading what I write here because of one reason. They want to get off while doing so. I know it. They know it. And we are both happy.

I have no grand designs of becoming the world's best erotic writer. Why should I? Most of what is termed "quality erotica" is stuff I can't even understand. And if there is any profession that is not going to pay the rent, it's being a writer of erotic fiction. I do this because it is fun and I enjoy it. I like hearing suggestions from readers and developing stories based on ideas they share with me. I like letting my imagination go. Do I write in cliches? I suppose so, but I really don't care. If some one were paying me to do this I would be singing a different tune.

I do have writings that are not here that are quite different. But they wouldn't go over well here, and I've come to understand that.

And there have been a few "break away" stories as well. Most flop, unless the writer already has a following. Just the way it goes.

I do hope other writers respond as I would be interested in hearing what they have to say.

 

[IrresistibleBeauty]

Then indeed I am mistaken

Then indeed, I did come to the wrong place.

I thought every effort SHOULD be the great American novel.

I thought every story SHOULD be the best of one's abilities.

I thought every character SHOULD make the reader care.

I thought every plot SHOULD leave you on the edge of your seat.

And I thought if this is not possible, at least it SHOULD be strived for.

Perhaps I should try to show what I mean. I have one piece of fiction here, and I will write more.

Point of the matter--writing is like any art, any music, any sculpture, any painting. I prefer to liken my writing to jazz, like Kerouac and Charlie Parker, with a beat sometimes, with the unexpected. I liken my plots to Van Gogh--dark, brooding, deeply felt. I liken my main characters' voice to Nabakov--enthusiastic, ecstatic, emotional. I strive to show many things in my work, not just string sentences along.

Part of the problem I have, Chele, is that you feel everyone has a right to write. While I agree to a point, that is not to say everyone should be seen in the same light. My brother wants to try out for the Diamondbacks, but just because he can hit the ball in a batting cage does not make him a major leaguer. He is an amateur, nothing else. Just because he can swing a bat does not mean he can play second base in the big leagues. All the same, just because you can type does not mean you are an author.

Sorry it comes so cold like that.

I have no problem with break-away stories that flop--at least they try. At least they are trying for criticism and wish to improve their ability to articulate their fantasies. At least they are willing to fail. Posting a story or poem here ought to be more than seeking validation, more than trying to get a 4.80 rating in the public votes. It should be about making the audience seeing the inner self of the writer or striving to do so.

And if the people who read here are my audience, I refuse to dummy them down.

Am I taking this too serious? Possibly. But I take all my art seriously. It is a part of me. I bet you just about everyone here has a pile of poetry under their beds from their teenage years--if they don't now, they once did. And they poured their teenage souls over the paper and in their heart of hearts felt they were expressing something unique, personal, and that no one else knew--when in fact, we all felt these things, it's just that we felt we were expressing them in our own way. It is for those people that I bring forth my challenge.

Surely there are those here who aspire to write something of substance, at least for their own benefit.

And that is my challenge.

Call me on it if I fall short, just as I have called the rest of you out.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Nice.

Now where's your stuff?


---dr.M.

Let me expand on that. I started a thread a while where I put forward the idea that maybe we would do better to discourage people who don't have the slightest idea of what fiction or writing is about. I said many of the same things: that not all who want to write should write; that the bad smothers the good; that being popular is not the same as being good; that we should reward serious efforts to rework the genre.

The response was a pretty definite No.

I was not advocating censorship or editing. I was just saying that when someone posts an obvious piece of crap and asks for feedback, that sometimes the best service we can offer is to tell the person that it is indeed crap rather than serving as a laxative by encouraging them.

It's the general feeling here that this is a venue for the publication of material by any and all and that's the way it is. I've also tried to band together like-minded authors who value innovation and creativity in writing, and that hasn't really worked either.

So the short answer, IrresistableB, is that if you're seeking to play the part of an erotic Virginia Woolf, then yes, you are in the wrong place. But still, I think you should stick around just because I'd like to see what you have to offer and because I'm tired of being the sole curmudgeon.

Curmudgeonly yours,

---dr.M.

 

[SexyChele]

Okay, one of my first issues is that, in your original post, you appeared to generalize. I simply don't agree with that.

Second, this is an amateur site that freely supports the freedom of speech. So, in the vein that is Literotica, then I certainly do believe that all have the right to write.

You say you want to issue all of us writers a challenge, though I'm more than a bit unclear as to what your "challenge" is. So, how about this, k?

You go and write the kind of story you think would be an excellent example of what you would like to see here. Then, start a thread here in the Story Feedback section with a link once it has been published, and it can be discussed. I think that is no more than fair, is it? Perhaps what you offer can give inspiration to others? Or motivation? At least a good discussion? Besides, usually one who challenges should also be involved in that challenge.


Oh, and as for the teenage poetry? Maybe I am the oddity, but I never did that. I'm terrible at poetry and seldom have found the form truly expresses what I feel. So not "all" have a pile of papers under the bed filled with adolescent poetic angst. Just a thought.

 

[English Lady]

Ok,I don't often let myself get riled and even less often do i vent my emotion. but here folks I am going to make an exception.


Who the hell are you to tell us what good erotica is? Have you read every story on this site? You must have done to be able to make such sweeping coments about how bad the standard is.

Where does it say that this is a site for professional writers? I didn't see that anywhere. In fact I was under the impression literotica is designed to be amateur friendly.

Who are you to deny somebody the thrill of seeing their own story "published" on a site where lots of people can read it? Alot of people who post stories are aware that they are not the best author in the world but I am pretty sure they will have put alot of effort into their work and they should be given credit for trying!

I know there are some pretty basic stories out there, but you don't have to read them. Send positive feedback to people. Offer constructive criticism. Do not hold every story up to the same yardstick.

There are writers here for whom english is a second language, I am sure there are writers here who are dyslexic or who didn't do well in english at school for whatever reason. We should be encouraging these people.

They may not write the erotica you like. they may not develop their characters the way you'd like, they may not have an original idea. The great triumph for these people is that they have written at all.

We all strive. We all put something of ourselves into our work,and if you don't like it, well you can lump it!


I feel that at the end of the day the material here is mostly used to wank too. So authors write stories you can wank to. (sorry to be crude but hell its the truth)

I think there are many writers who do that well. I have read stories here that have caught my imagination. I have seen characters who i relate to and like. I have read interesting plotlines, stories with a twist. I am proud to say I have read a hell of a lot of good erotica here and I am also proud to say I have got off to alot of it too!

Sexychele is right, this is all meant to be fun,we write because we love to write and many authors write because they love to get positive feedback. We write stories our audience wants,we write stories we want to write.


If you do not like the stories here, go elsewhere.

 

[IrresistibleBeauty]

Fair enough

Seeing as how I am new to the format and can't quite figure out the link process here, you are free to criticize me.

Under EROTIC COUPLINGS you will find the story ONE-NIGHT STAND WITH THE ARCHANGEL.

Feel free to dissect it, to sit through it, to be harsh.

It is plain to see I have grossly overestimated the worth of this place.

And it is plain to see I am trying to view this page as literature, not fluff.

Guess I was wrong.

 

[English Lady]

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=78630&page=2



thats a link to your story irresistable.

 

[IrresistibleBeauty]

No, that is a link to page 2...

If you are trying to show me up, do two things...

1--get the link right

2--get the spelling right--there is no A in Irresistible

 

[MaxSebastian]

I think there's plenty of quality around - you just have to find it.

Remember, quality doesn't attract votes here in Literotica on the whole - afterall, the vast majority of voters here aren't here to read James Joyce-esque masterpieces. They're here to entertain themselves for a few minutes/hours.

And what's wrong with a little light entertainment now and again?

So on the whole, those Nabokov or Steinbeck pieces don't have a high profile - you have to find 'em.


But then isn't that what bookshops are like?

 

[English Lady]

1 the link works for me.

2. "and I am never one to harp on typos and incorrect grammar. " your own words.


Sorry for trying to help.

 

[DarlingNikki]

But if there are a few of us that are looking for criticism and are willing to write in bold colors, that are willing to be a little daring and different and take some chances, that want to step out of the cliches and step into heaven, that want their characters to be cared about and their plots exhilerating and their personal styles unique and over-the-top and worth the time in reading, then by all means, we need to get off out duffs and stretch the envelope a little.

Good idea. I'd love to start avoiding cliches. You first.

Send constructive feedback to all these stories you don't like if you want to see the quality improve. To post such a sweeping generalization about how bad everyone's stories are is just rude.

 

[IrresistibleBeauty]

I suppose you're right, Max...

...and perhaps I will peruse more thoroughly.

Just a little disconcerting, in this bookstore, to find Kipling's Jungle Book right next to Disney's Jungle Book, to find third-rate Hustler sandwiched between Hugo and Ionesco (just looking on my own bookshelf to see where Hustler would fit between). They don't have the coloring books mixed in with Shakespeare for a reason--and yet that is EXACTLY what this place is.

 

[Octavian]

A new record

Well, Irresistible with an 'i'.

I think you might just have set a new record.
In a mere six posts you seem to have alienated almost everybody on Literotica.

Octavian

 

[DarlingNikki]

I started to read the story. I find it kind of tiresome and VERY repetitive. Here I stand, here I stand, here I stand. I guess you were trying to sound literary, but it doesn't work. You switch tenses a lot. And Pakistan is not a city. I'm not particularly excited to finish it.

I really think you should have posted a better story before dissing everyone else's.

The good news is although you may not like the idea that this site is for amatures, it is. So your story fits right in.

 

[SexyChele]

Okay, for anyone who might be interested, here is the link: One-Night Stand With The Archangel.

I've just read the entire story, with the exception of one or two paragraphs. My final reaction? No better or worse than a lot of other stories written to Lit. About average, really.

Major points that came to my mind:

1. Repetitive phrases, as already brought up. "Here I stand" beginning almost every initial paragraph. I finally figured out you meant to do that. It didn't have the desired effect. Well, at least not with me.

2. Tense changes - a lot. Writing in present tense is a challenge. Slipping between present and past tense is a common mistake, and it is repeated often here. But that's grammar, correct? And we don't worry about that. Okay. Next.

3. Huge runon sentence that was supposed to be some sort of thought. I tried to read through it, became irritated, started over, got the idea of what was happening, and gave up. I've no idea what the final conclusion of that "sentence" was. One of the paragraphs I skipped over.

4. You say you want to step out of cliches, right? Then why include them? The enormous cock thing was just plain silly and funny. And the idea that the female lead "came instantly" when he entered her is the ultimate of cliches. Now, add on top of this the whole she "came and came and came" and you deserve a "shame on you" mention.

5. I find words like this: "deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep" personally irritating. Does anyone really think or talk that way?

6. Okay, what's up with all the time stuff? Who the hell cares if it was 11:25 when she stopped blowing him? And why the mention that he fucks her anally for 45 minutes? That part made not sense and did not add to the story in any way.

7. Now, this story is told in first person. Fine. So then, how come when the cops come in at the end, we are told what one cop is thinking? First person means that the author only has an awareness of their own thoughts - not others. If you had wanted to include this, the story should have been written in third person.

8. The story takes place in "any city", and some international cities or countries are mentioned. Fine. Yet, at the end, it is the Phoenix Police Department that comes banging on the door? Huh? Since when does Phoenix PD have any sort of jurisiction in Moscow?

Did care about the characters? Not particularly. She was a whore, he was a freak. Yeah, and? Cliches, the two of them. What is different? Whore who feels she is less because she is a whore, yet secretly desires it. And this is supposed to be something new? Gotta work a little harder if you want to live up to your own standards of what is readable.

Now, normally I would also say what I liked about the story. Quite frankly, I really don't have that much to say. It didn't grab me, and if I were a reader, I would have "backed" out of it by the third paragraph. It just wasn't engaging to me. However, overall, I feel it's an average story, and those people who get off on enormous cocks might find it worthy. But they have to wait until the 2nd page for that, don't they? Hmmm. What was that about needing 2 pages to introduce the meat of the story?

You may have gotten most of the writers here to look at your story, this is true. But I doubt, unless your attitude changes, you will find much in the way of support here. We are normally a caring, supportive group. That's something all writers - amatuer or professional - can use now and again. You might want to think on that for a bit.

 

[English Lady]

*Agrees completely with what Sexychele has written*

 

[hiddenself]

Not so

In a mere six posts you seem to have alienated almost everybody on Literotica.

Octavian

She has maybe alienated some of you guys who are a little touchy and a little self-absorbed (well, true writers are supposed to be so ). But dr.M. didn't sound too alienated to me.

I happen to agree with the basic premise that most (two thirds?) of the stories are really crap -- they clutter the space and make it more difficult for readers to find something good. Lots of stories contain awful writing, bad plot, and have no "wanking" ability whatsoever. Others have one or more of those features, without being Nobel prize material. And there are a few that may be top notch. So?

This is a free site after all and everyone has the right to put stuff up (to boost his/her ego or to simply have fun or whatever). There is *no* "literary" or "peer review" or "readers' choice" system that culls the good from the bad. That would be an entirely different undetaking. On the other hand, let's not be too pretentious that the site is more literary than its content reveals.

Finally, I would point out that whether I's own story is crap or magnificent is irrelevant to the validity of the points she's raised. That kind of personal attack does not reflect well on the people who make it. Personally, I happen to think that the Archangel story is indeed mediocre -- repetitive (that trick didn't work for me either), not sufficiently erotic, way too long for its own good. I'd give it a '3' (better than lots, worse than quite a few). Again, so? I's basic question is quite legit.

hs

 

[SexyChele]

"Touchy" and "Self-absorbed"? Interesting. I actually don't consider myself that much of a good writer, despite what some folks say. But I do know that I do not care for people making broad and sweeping generalizations. I have been asked by a number of people on these boards to help them with their stories. I'm not the world's best editor, either, but I know what I like and what I don't.

When IB made her statement, stating she poured herself into her art, how one should stay away from cliches, etc (all points I can agree with), and then pointed to a story of her own, I was expecting to be shown an example of what she was talking about. My critique here was what I honestly saw in the story. This isn't the first time I've done this, probably won't be the last - especially if a writer states they are okay with it. I read her story with an open mind. The comments above were my conclusions.

Is there stuff on here that some don't consider works of literary genius? Yup, there is. But if folks want to read only those works consider "good enough", there are lots of other places to go. Why come here and criticize? Especially knowing that, for the most part, any story is accepted?

I've talked to people who had real problems with the English language. I've even completely re-written more than a few stories for people and gave my okay for them to publish under their own name.

I don't present myself as being a good writer. I just try to be a good person who like to write. A big difference.

 

[jfinn]

Re: Then indeed I am mistaken

Then indeed, I did come to the wrong place...

Very possibly you did. Literotica is a huge multinational site for most types of sex stories. There is a little something for everyone and that's not bad, just different (obviously) than what you're looking for. But you can't blame the site for that. Literotica is what it is and its been around for a lot longer than you've been reading here and I imagine will still be here long after you've gone. There are thousands of people who love reading and/or posting to this site and that fact alone should be worth something.

I'm getting the feeling from you that you think only those with talent should be allowed to write. But isn't that a little elitest of you? For one thing, talent is in the eyes of the beholder. What you may find brilliant, I would find to be pretentious crap or vice versa. And what gives either of us the right to determine the validity of someone else's taste in reading material?

But cheer up. Literotica isn't the only game in town and if you're looking for sites with literary pretentions, you can find them easily enough. PM me if you want and I'll give you a couple of links. These sites are a lot smaller of course, and pretty subjective themselves when it comes to their criteria for acceptance, but still, you might find them a better fit for your own work.

Jayne

 

[the_bragis]

Hello IrresistibleBeauty,

I have to be honest too. It takes a lot to ruffle me, but your posting has.

Part of the problem I have, Chele, is that you feel everyone has a right to write. While I agree to a point, that is not to say everyone should be seen in the same light. My brother wants to try out for the Diamondbacks, but just because he can hit the ball in a batting cage does not make him a major leaguer. He is an amateur, nothing else. Just because he can swing a bat does not mean he can play second base in the big leagues. All the same, just because you can type does not mean you are an author.

This is an excellent analogy. Yes, Literotica is to major publishing houses, what amateur baseball is to the big league. Many writers here are the literary equivilant of your brother swinging a bat and hitting the ball at the local park, in the hope that one day he may try out for the Diamondbacks. Everyone has to start somewhere to get to the top. Some of us get there, most of us just have fun trying.

Now, I think you are forgetting basic facts here.

~ This is a free site. If you are not happy with the quality of writing here, pay your $10 a month or whatever it takes to gain entry to a XXX rated story site. If you are still not happy, then complain loudly.

~ This site has been set up to encourage people on all levels to write. Advice and feedback in a friendly non threatening manner are what most authors here are seeking. I see SexyChele, a talented writer herself, has taken time to give you both. Take my advice - take hers.

~ Personally I find the variance of stories and people here a joy. If I do happen to come across a story I don't like, for any reason, then I simply take advantage of the back button. You can too.

~ Everyone's idea of erotic is different. One author in here in particular can't spell, can't type, can't do much of anything except write what are for me some of the most intriguing stories I have ever read.

Damn it, I read and enjoy everything from Dickens to Disney!

I'm sorry but I just find it so hard sometimes to tolerate narrow-minded literary snobs.

I wish you well with your future writing,

Alex. (fem)

 

[Sabledrake]

If ever I set out to write the "Great American Novel," somebody please put me out of my misery.

Sabledrake

 

[Octavian]

originally posted by hiddenself

She has maybe alienated some of you guys who are a little touchy and a little self-absorbed (well, true writers are supposed to be so ). But dr.M. didn't sound too alienated to me.

I am neither a true writer nor am I in the least bit touchy.
I do not deny Irresistible's right to an opinion about the merits or otherwise of this site. For what it is worth I don't rate many of the stories here either.

I merely question the wisdom of a newcomer starting a discussion by telling everyone that they are all crap.

Octavian

 

[Whispersecret]

IrresistibleBeauty, you sure must be sure of yourself to register a screenname like that.

-Most of the stories here are not of high quality. I wish that the management raised their standards, but that will never come to pass. Laurel's mission statement differs with what I want it to be, which is perfectly fine, because this is her site, not mine. I live in the continual process of accepting that.

There is no other way to improve the quality besides the management being more discerning. Even if you could send constructive criticism to every single author who needed it, that wouldn't do the trick, because there would be hundreds of new authors in line to post their first story with all the same flaws.

-While the mechanics of the majority of the stories used to be horrid, it has improved over the past year or so.

-There are, in fact, many of us who take our writing very seriously, despite the fact that we post it on a free site.

However, if you remember the bell curve, the percentage of really prime stuff is going to be small in comparison with that that is average.

-This site is different things for different people. We all post stuff. Some of us do it for fun. Some of us are deadly serious. Some of us are just experimenting. I think that's the appeal here. There's not that much at risk.

-I happen to agree with Dr. M. False praise doesn't help anyone. I had a thread where people give me the first 500 words of a story and I would give them an honest critique. It seemed successful for a while, but has since faded away. I have come to the conclusion that most of the writers here aren't THAT interested in improvement. They're happy with a few positive feedback letters and the fact that their story is being read. (That might just be a way to console myself that my "Great Idea to Improve the Quality of Literotica Writing" flopped, but I don't think so.)

-Sure, Barnes and Noble separates the comic books from the classics, but they're SELLING the books.

Finally, just as one doesn't have to be Steven Spielberg in order to aptly criticize a movie, you don't need to be a crackerjack writer yourself in order for your opinion to be valid or accurate.

 

[DarlingNikki]

Re: Then indeed I am mistaken

Perhaps I should try to show what I mean. I have one piece of fiction here, and I will write more.

... I prefer to liken my writing to jazz, like Kerouac and Charlie Parker, with a beat sometimes, with the unexpected. I liken my plots to Van Gogh--dark, brooding, deeply felt. I liken my main characters' voice to Nabakov--enthusiastic, ecstatic, emotional. I strive to show many things in my work, not just string sentences along.

Part of the problem I have, Chele, is that you feel everyone has a right to write. While I agree to a point, that is not to say everyone should be seen in the same light. ... And that is my challenge.

Call me on it if I fall short, just as I have called the rest of you out.

Whispersecret - my post was in response to the above. She asked to be "called on it." Sure, I wish I could have done it more gracefully, but I guess I am not that good of a writer yet. I also agree with you and Dr. Mabeuse, I just didn't like her tone.

Is that "first 500 words" thread of yours still around and are you still willing to do it? I AM here to improve my writing.