9/11

[ZRT]

And while I might quietly bitch about increased security at airports, I'll stand in line for as long as it takes to prevent an attack on that scale from happening again.

Security runs in cycles like that. Security gets lax, something bad happens. Everyone freaks out, security gets jacked up, people get pissed at the hassles of security, point out nothing's happened for a while and it's an overreaction, security gets lax again, something bad happens, ad infinitum.

As for the day, eh. I was pissed, we got hit on our own turf and all. But it wasn't a 'the day the world changed' kind of thing because I knew that something of that sort was bound to happen sooner or later. We had and have gaping holes in our security and numerous folks in this world who really don't like us.

 

[graceanne]

And while I might quietly bitch about increased security at airports, I'll stand in line for as long as it takes to prevent an attack on that scale from happening again.

Yep..

 

[SimonBrooke]

I cannot, will not, forget, or "get beyond," or forgive. "War" to some people has become cruel, unprovoked attacks on civilians and innocents with no military or strategic advantage sought, merely the pain and anguish and death of "the others."

If you (and people like you) do not, this sort of thing will go on for ever. Statistically speaking, the recent 'war' in Gaza is shockingly symmetrical. On 9/11, 19 attackers died, and 2,974 of those attacked died. in Operation Cast Lead, 13 on the attacking side died and a disputed number of those attacked - somewhere between one and two thousand - were killed.

One can argue indefinitely about the relative rights and wrongs of either side in either of these incidents. That is not what I'm arguing. I'm not arguing that the attackers in the twin towers were 'in the right', nor that US policy in the Middle East over the preceding half century placed the US 'in the right', nor am I arguing for either the Israelis or the Palestinians. I'm simply asking you to understand that for very many people in the world, Operation Cast Lead was as indefensible as you find the 9/11 attack. They cannot, will not, forget, or "get beyond", or forgive.

And until people on both sides do forgive (as it seems over the past ten years people in Northern Ireland have learned to), there will be no end to this.

 

[Netzach]

If you (and people like you) do not, this sort of thing will go on for ever. Statistically speaking, the recent 'war' in Gaza is shockingly symmetrical. On 9/11, 19 attackers died, and 2,974 of those attacked died. in Operation Cast Lead, 13 on the attacking side died and a disputed number of those attacked - somewhere between one and two thousand - were killed.

One can argue indefinitely about the relative rights and wrongs of either side in either of these incidents. That is not what I'm arguing. I'm not arguing that the attackers in the twin towers were 'in the right', nor that US policy in the Middle East over the preceding half century placed the US 'in the right', nor am I arguing for either the Israelis or the Palestinians. I'm simply asking you to understand that for very many people in the world, Operation Cast Lead was as indefensible as you find the 9/11 attack. They cannot, will not, forget, or "get beyond", or forgive.

And until people on both sides do forgive (as it seems over the past ten years people in Northern Ireland have learned to), there will be no end to this.

I don't think forgiveness is necessary, but understanding of the situation IS. Complexities. Motives. Culture. Globalization. Its effects. Who's being left behind and what it means when you leave people NO recourse to benefit like you in the marketplace. It doesn't entail kumbaya and it doesn't entail *softness* to adopt an unclouded and uncluttered look at any of these situations.

And most people prefer to have none. They prefer to maintain a WWF mentality on the whole thing. N. Ireland is a perfect example of what I am talking about. Things changed there MAINLY when the economy of the whole island changed. As long as it was feasible to have a Catholic underclass without access, it would have gone on.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

If you (and people like you) do not, this sort of thing will go on for ever. Statistically speaking, the recent 'war' in Gaza is shockingly symmetrical. On 9/11, 19 attackers died, and 2,974 of those attacked died. in Operation Cast Lead, 13 on the attacking side died and a disputed number of those attacked - somewhere between one and two thousand - were killed.

One can argue indefinitely about the relative rights and wrongs of either side in either of these incidents. That is not what I'm arguing. I'm not arguing that the attackers in the twin towers were 'in the right', nor that US policy in the Middle East over the preceding half century placed the US 'in the right', nor am I arguing for either the Israelis or the Palestinians. I'm simply asking you to understand that for very many people in the world, Operation Cast Lead was as indefensible as you find the 9/11 attack. They cannot, will not, forget, or "get beyond", or forgive.

And until people on both sides do forgive (as it seems over the past ten years people in Northern Ireland have learned to), there will be no end to this.

I don't think forgiveness is necessary, but understanding of the situation IS. Complexities. Motives. Culture. Globalization. Its effects. Who's being left behind and what it means when you leave people NO recourse to benefit like you in the marketplace. It doesn't entail kumbaya and it doesn't entail *softness* to adopt an unclouded and uncluttered look at any of these situations.

And most people prefer to have none. They prefer to maintain a WWF mentality on the whole thing. N. Ireland is a perfect example of what I am talking about. Things changed there MAINLY when the economy of the whole island changed. As long as it was feasible to have a Catholic underclass without access, it would have gone on.

One could - and I believe should - reasonably have inferred from the *rest* of my post that I do not blame the people these terrorist organizations claim to represent, only those extremists who brainwash or otherwise convince people to give up their lives in futile suicide bombings (or futilely using their lives to use airliners and innocent passengers as suicide bombs) to *make a point.* To so convince others is, to me, wrong, and should condemn the convincers to the deepest pits of hell immediately upon their deaths.

Incidentally, I feel much the same way about those who foisted the Vietnam war on the United States as the "last ditch effort to fight the communist menace," etc., when for many of them, the only reason to promote that madness was to improve the profits of those who supplied the military, and to increase the importance of those who politically benefited from our enhanced military posture, with no intent to ever *win* that war. *Nothing* that has come to light over the more than 30 years since we left Nam has ever shown that *anyone* who promoted that war had any scintilla of a plan to win it, and the cynicism that allowed them to propel us into sacrificing so many of our own (not just the dead, not just the wounded, but also those who were mentally and emotionally killed or wounded by the results of that conflict) should, IMNSHO, condemn them to those same deepest pits of hell for all eternity and beyond.

Don't get me wrong. I'm proud to have served my country in what was perceived as a time of danger, and to have done so honorably, but having learned what we have since then angers me tremendously against those who built that death trap for our soldiers.

Also: Netz is right. Most wars are, in the end, begun and ended by economic pressures.

 

[WriterDom]

If you (and people like you) do not, this sort of thing will go on for ever. Statistically speaking, the recent 'war' in Gaza is shockingly symmetrical. On 9/11, 19 attackers died, and 2,974 of those attacked died. in Operation Cast Lead, 13 on the attacking side died and a disputed number of those attacked - somewhere between one and two thousand - were killed.

One can argue indefinitely about the relative rights and wrongs of either side in either of these incidents. That is not what I'm arguing. I'm not arguing that the attackers in the twin towers were 'in the right', nor that US policy in the Middle East over the preceding half century placed the US 'in the right', nor am I arguing for either the Israelis or the Palestinians. I'm simply asking you to understand that for very many people in the world, Operation Cast Lead was as indefensible as you find the 9/11 attack. They cannot, will not, forget, or "get beyond", or forgive.

And until people on both sides do forgive (as it seems over the past ten years people in Northern Ireland have learned to), there will be no end to this.

These people have been killing each other for 1300 years over which flavor of Islam is correct. There is no quit to them regardless over what we do or don't do.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

From a brother in another country

http://www.marinemoms.us/usmc/usmc-images/9-11BakerCompany.jpg

Thanks Dark ...

 

[OldGuy1026]

I don't think anybody can forget that morning. A few months earlier the wife and I wrote Andy Roonie a letter trying to explain to him and CBS that the main reason people don't like the U.S. is because they are such arrogant pricks.

Worse still we get all the knee-jerk idiots who claim those Ass-holes were trained in Canada. Ever try to learn how to fly a plane out here? We got more Nosey Parkers (English Expression,) in this country than anywhere else.

Have the problems of the poorer countries of the world get anybody's attention? Time to roll up you sleeves and realize there are no easy solutions to the problems anymore. You can't ignore it like the English did 100 years ago.

So no offence to my American cousins, time to get an education on the world and take a stand.

 

[SimonBrooke]

These people have been killing each other for 1300 years over which flavor of Islam is correct.

That's true. Just as Christians have been killing Christians for 2,000 years over which flavour of Christianity is correct. Islam is not different from Christianity in this respect. It's not Islam that's the problem here. It's everyone that's the problem here.

 

[OldGuy1026]

That's true. Just as Christians have been killing Christians for 2,000 years over which flavour of Christianity is correct. Islam is not different from Christianity in this respect. It's not Islam that's the problem here. It's everyone that's the problem here.

How true how true.

 

[BiBunny]

I don't think anybody can forget that morning. A few months earlier the wife and I wrote Andy Roonie a letter trying to explain to him and CBS that the main reason people don't like the U.S. is because they are such arrogant pricks.

Worse still we get all the knee-jerk idiots who claim those Ass-holes were trained in Canada. Ever try to learn how to fly a plane out here? We got more Nosey Parkers (English Expression,) in this country than anywhere else.

Have the problems of the poorer countries of the world get anybody's attention? Time to roll up you sleeves and realize there are no easy solutions to the problems anymore. You can't ignore it like the English did 100 years ago.

So no offence to my American cousins, time to get an education on the world and take a stand.

Assuming that we're all a bunch of dumb rednecks is hardly going to garner any support for your cause, you know.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

Assuming that we're all a bunch of dumb rednecks is hardly going to garner any support for your cause, you know.

Yeah, some of us are smart/educated rednecks. (Speaking for myself, not anyone else.)

 

[BiBunny]

Yeah, some of us are smart/educated rednecks. (Speaking for myself, not anyone else.)

That's me, too. Somewhat educated redneck.

 

[OldGuy1026]

Yeah, some of us are smart/educated rednecks. (Speaking for myself, not anyone else.)

Sorry to tick you guys off, but it's kind'a hard being your Canadian Cousin.
(P.S. I have over 100 first cousins who do live in the U.S. of Eh!)

 

[Keroin]

Sorry to tick you guys off, but it's kind'a hard being your Canadian Cousin.
(P.S. I have over 100 first cousins who do live in the U.S. of Eh!)

Actually, I don't think it's that hard at all. I like our Yankee neighbours.

On September 12, 2001, I was sharing my living space with nine American men. A relative of mine, from California, had been in Whistler, on a business outing, with nine of his employees at the time of the attacks. Though they were unable to fly home, accommodation wasn't a problem because they were booked into the hotel for several more days. What was a problem was that they were worried and missing their families, and feeling alone in a foreign country. I told them to get their asses down to my place, pronto. Me and my neighbours rustled up bedding and mattresses, put together a big dinner and bought all kinds of goodies for the guys.

We spent the next three days together - a kind of executive sleepover - laughing, crying, eating and drinking, sharing. There was no arrogance on the part of my guests, only gratitude. They'll never know how much they helped me. The worst part of 911, for me, was how helpless I felt watching our neighbours suffer and knowing there was nothing I could do. I'm so glad I was able to help out, even in the smallest way.

There's much I could say about US foreign policy, the dangers of religion, the importance of learning from past mistakes, blah, blah, blah, but that's talk for another time and place.

Suffering is suffering. My empathy for my fellow man does not stop at the Canadian border, nor any border. I wept on Sept 11th. I wept when bombs dropped on Iraq. Whenever humans inflict horrors on other humans, I feel diminished. We need less hate in this world.

 

[JMohegan]

The day we all became New Yorkers.

An affliction that recurs when convenient. For some.

 

[JMohegan]

Also give thought to the hundreds of volunteers who are now sick from working in the toxic atmosphere without protection, trying to rescue people.

Sick, disabled, dying, already dead. Struggling to get by on disability, some bankrupt, or heading that way, without the money to pay medical bills.

Hell of a way to treat our heroes.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

Sick, disabled, dying, already dead. Struggling to get by on disability, some bankrupt, or heading that way, without the money to pay medical bills.

Hell of a way to treat our heroes.

<Sigh>

How soon they (the politicians) forget.

How long we (the people) *must* remember, because it's still killing yesterday's heroes.

 

[JMohegan]

<Sigh>

How soon they (the politicians) forget.

How long we (the people) *must* remember, because it's still killing yesterday's heroes.

Politicians serve at the behest of the people, and the squeaky wheel gets greased.

If most Americans actually gave a fuck about people like John Feal, the 9/11 Health and Compensation Act would have already been passed.

 

[00Syd]

An affliction that recurs when convenient. For some.

That's how I've always felt about it. Whenever I hear someone say that we ("we" meaning all of the U.S., and sometimes the whole world) all became NYers on that day (or something to that effect) I always roll my eyes. Yeah. Sure you did.

Sorry, but more goes into it than sympathy. I sympathize with the people who lived through Katrina, but I wouldn't have the balls to claim to now have some greater affinity for New Orleans (a place I've never been). I admit that this is a pretty "New York" attitude, and I probably wouldn't have beef with the idea if I wasn't from NYC. But, shit, being a New Yorker has more to do with knowing where to find the 5 best bagels in the city than it has to do with 9/11.

 

[JMohegan]

That's how I've always felt about it. Whenever I hear someone say that we ("we" meaning all of the U.S., and sometimes the whole world) all became NYers on that day (or something to that effect) I always roll my eyes. Yeah. Sure you did.

Sorry, but more goes into it than sympathy. I sympathize with the people who lived through Katrina, but I wouldn't have the balls to claim to now have some greater affinity for New Orleans (a place I've never been). I admit that this is a pretty "New York" attitude, and I probably wouldn't have beef with the idea if I wasn't from NYC. But, shit, being a New Yorker has more to do with knowing where to find the 5 best bagels in the city than it has to do with 9/11.

I don't find it at all objectionable, if delivered in a genuinely heartfelt, "Ich bin ein Berliner" kind of way.

However, I do find it revolting when individuals (and particularly politicians) wrap themselves in 9/11 sentimentality and/or anti-terrorist chest-thumping each year, and then turn around and blather on about "real America" vs. east coast elites, or "pro-America" vs. big city values.

 

[missginger2177]

I don't find it at all objectionable, if delivered in a genuinely heartfelt, "Ich bin ein Berliner" kind of way.

However, I do find it revolting when individuals (and particularly politicians) wrap themselves in 9/11 sentimentality and/or anti-terrorist chest-thumping each year, and then turn around and blather on about "real America" vs. east coast elites, or "pro-America" vs. big city values.

As much as I *hate* to do it. I feel this thread needs some humor. Therefore:

I shall be a jelly doughnut.

 

[OldGuy1026]

RPFL, yea it was what three weeks after 911 a comedy news group announce the US Government intends to get back for the distruction of the World Trade Centre just as soon as we figure out who did it.

I forget who did it, but at the time, yea.

In the words of Foret Gump, "and that's all I have to say about that."

 

[graceanne]

That's how I've always felt about it. Whenever I hear someone say that we ("we" meaning all of the U.S., and sometimes the whole world) all became NYers on that day (or something to that effect) I always roll my eyes. Yeah. Sure you did.

As an Oregonian, I've always rolled my eyes at this one, too. Kinda inwardly, of course. I wept when I watched people jump out of those buildings to avoid the fire and I sobbed watching the buildings fall.

I am not, nor have I ever been, a New Yorker. The tragedy is everyone's, but that doesn't mean that I suddenly became a New Yorker.

As much as I *hate* to do it. I feel this thread needs some humor. Therefore:

I shall be a jelly doughnut.

No you shall not. I get to be the jelly doughnut.

 

[missginger2177]

<snip>



No you shall not. I get to be the jelly doughnut.

But, I wanna be the jelly doughnut. I never get to be anything fun. *going to my corner to pout*