28 May 2001: Paris: The City of Light & Lust by Nitengale

[Weird Harold]

This week's story is from the Author nomination thread.

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=12784

"Paris: The City of Light & Lust"

By Nitengale

 

[PAUL C]

I was enjoying this story as a Romance until they made love the first time. I don't know if it was just too graphic for a Romance, or more the language used, but it seemed out of place with what had gone before.


Still, I read on and it happened again.

I found, by the end, that I felt a little frustrated with this.

It was a pity because it was a lovely story.

I might have expected her to have received a little rougher treatment from the Germans who searched her flat, perhaps to give her something to light the spark of resistence inside her.

It was well written and had an interesting plot which made we want to reach the end.

 

[nitengale]

niten's thoughts...

“Paris: The City of Light and Lust” was written as a submission to a story writing challenge on another erotic story site and it came in second place.

This is a story I worked hard on, especially in gathering the facts used as the backdrop of the story. It is has been re-written and revised, although what is posted on Lit is not that copy. If anyone is interested in reading this copy and then seeing the changes, please let me know. I am going to point out that this story in this version is one that was reviewed and edited by one of the Lit volunteer editors.

I am sure your comments will be helpful, although I will add that this story has been put through the ringer by seven judges, so the feedback has been overwhelming for me regarding this story, and has changed my outlook in writing.

Thanks for taking the time to read and post your comments. I will address all comments at the end of the week.

nitengale

 

[KillerMuffin]

Most of the sex was extraneous, if not all, which is why it seemed so out of place. The story would probably have been much smoother without it. Or if there had just been sex at the end. There is no reason to describe sex just to make a story erotic. There has to be a reason for it. To have put the sex at the end only would have been better, I think. Because they're long parting warrented such a scene. Like Whisper always tells me, if it doesn't move the plot or subplots forward, it isn't necessary, bad Muffin, bad bad bad.

The story was too short! I think it all happened too fast for the plot. More expansion on her fear of reprisal over the underground prior to Germans, the horror of the Germans in her flat would have made a fabulous horror story if it hadn't been sacrificed in favor of sex (If that is indeed what had happened), and the emotional rollercoaster she would have been on while fleeing, then meeting her husband again coul have been more in depth.

That and all three sex scenes were almost exactly alike right down to the uttered words and phrases.

 

[Ask For More]

I agree with both statements made.....I felt the sex maybe lacked a bit of romanticism and was more of the dirty "get down" kind. If you know what I mean.

This story is definitely too short for me! There are so many angles to explore, like Armand's participation with the resistance, more on how they first met and Nicolette's run in with the Germans which I felt was definetely worth expanding; perhaps more frequent visits from the Germans to heighten the danger and tension of Nicolette's situation in Paris?

 

[Ulyssa]

Too short? I think so too.

The plotting here in this story had real potential particularly as a romance. Seven editors with seven different opinions merely allowed some of the story to fall short seven different ways--and yet there were moments of real drama--moments of real feeling--and moments of potential suspense.

1. I think the Nazis were noted for their careful research on anyone they considered an enemy. Nicolette's American father would have been known to them. They'd have come down hard on her for being a member of an inferior race.

2. I've shared this viewpoint w/ Nitengale before--talk during lovemaking must be meaningful. If the lovemaking itself doesn't push the plot (and we ALL agree that this is a big plot driven story) then the talk must do so. Yes, sometimes we "take time out from the war to hide from it," but that never lasts very long and in this case a word or two from Armand could have given us the clue that he was in the resistance and even though Demi would spill the beans to her at lunch, we as readers would go : "Ah-ha!" Knowing that this little gem was planted ahead of time.

Nitengale, I think you need to search for an editor who will work with you. The potential to "Paris" is wonderful. There are wonderful moments in it already---and there could be more.

 

[Weird Harold]

Re: niten's thoughts...

“Paris: The City of Light and Lust” was written as a submission to a story writing challenge on another erotic story site and it came in second place.

I think this is one point in Nitengale's introduction that reviewers so far have missed.

I suspect that EroticStories.com is the site mentioned. I've been a judge for one of the story challenges there and should point out that judging a story is NOT the same as editing a story, or even a general discussion critique like this forum. It is a process of evaluating how well the challenge elements are met.

I don't know what the challenge elements were for this story. I do know that sometimes the challenges result in a plot stretched just a bit thinner than the author would really like it to be.

Challenges often have a specific length as one of the challenge elements, typically 5000 words or less.

Finally, a challenge story is written to a fairly short deadline. It's not like my current story where I've had writer's block for four months -- the authors in a challenge don't have the luxury of letting writer's block pass in it's own time.

I think I would have much preferred to discuss the full rewrite than the cleaned up challenge story. Many of the elements forced on this story by the limitations of writing to a challenge (and commented on here) would be addressed in the rewrite.

 

[Sonia_de_Beaumanoir]

comments on writing historical fiction

I have read the new and old versions of the story and provided feedback directly to nitengale (am I editor #8?).

If one is going to place a story in an historical or foreign setting, it is imperative to research the period and location. There were numerous errors in this regard in the story, all of which I have indicated to the author. Whether she takes my advice or not is up to her.

So for anyone else who wants to write stories set in Paris or WWII or whatever, take the time to research. The current chain story has a chapter, which I also edited, by Ulyssa set in 19th-century Paris. It was obvious that she had read up on the period, and the only changes I needed to make were spellings of French words.

 

[DarlingBri]

Well, I'm neither an editor of this story nor an expert on occupied Paris, so that makes me "just a reader."

I thought it was interesting, touching, well-written, and did I say interesting? I always wanted to know what would happen next, and that's a always a good sign. I also agree the story has potential for a longer-length rewrite.

The only part that jarred was the sex. It was perfectly good sex, but it also seemed "out of context" sex. While it was, I understand, specifically written for a porn site, I don't see that as a reason the sex could not be tender. I jus tdon't associate "Fuck me, make me cum" with the setting of this story, that's all.

On a side note, I'm somewhat surprised this went through seven editors and came out with a humdinger liek this one:

Later that day, while she and Demi were sharing lunch, a co-worker of theirs, handed Demi a note, and then left the room as quickly as she entered it, leaving Nicolette to wonder what was going on.

Hello, misplaced comma and long-assed sentence!

Theere is a caveat to that. For the average Lit author, that is not a humdinger. It's run of the mill, if not stretching toward greatness. This writer and this story are in all respects well above average, so I allow "flow thuds" like that to irritate

 

[Weird Harold]

On a side note, I'm somewhat surprised this went through seven editors and came out with a humdinger liek this one:

Later that day, while she and Demi were sharing lunch, a co-worker of theirs, handed Demi a note, and then left the room as quickly as she entered it, leaving Nicolette to wonder what was going on.

Hello, misplaced comma and long-assed sentence!

DarlingBri picked a passage that illustrates something I try to point out to my editing clients -- don't get so involved in your vision that you try to tell everything at once.

Even very good authors fall into the trap of trying to control the reader's imagination too closely at times. It doesn't always lead to long sentences like the example, but they're a common symptom.

Often, doing a word search through your story for "AS" and "THEN" will highlight places where you are "telling, not showing." "AND" is another word that often occurs more than it needs to in stories.

Sometimes it is difficult to convey the sense of many things happening all at once with mere words. Authors get trapped into a mind-set of "explaining" the action and forget that readers have imaginations that can work for the author to order the sequence of events. If the mood and background are set up properly, an average reader will be able to figure out what happened simultaneously and what was sequential without any need for the author to explicitly explain what happened when.

As DarlingBri notes, this problem can even surface in the works of good authors as well as those "just getting by" and is often more noticable for the contrast.

 

[Whispersecret]

Hey there, Nitengale. We’ve spoken little about your writing specifically, so I’ll prepare you. I’m very outspoken when it comes to critiques and I may come off as arrogant, something I try to subdue as much as possible. Please don’t take any of what I say personally. I am only doing my best to point out places in your story that I feel could be improved. Certainly, my opinions are not fact, nor are they necessarily correct, so feel free to ignore any or all of what I say after you’ve considered it. I only ask that you do consider it first, since I spend quite a while working on it.

Also, I understand that you have a much revised version. You’re like me—nothing is ever quite finished and perfect. I also understand from WH’s post that you were put under certain constrains for the challenge. So, my comments may all be moot. Still, I was too lazy to ask for the email and afraid that once I got it, I wouldn’t be in the mood to critique anymore. Hopefully, there will still be something of value to be found in this post.

It maddened her that the French military did not fully prepare for the potential of an invasion. It seemed to her that the rest of the world made advancements to make superior war machines, and all the French could do was to come up with some idiotic wall to keep the intruders out of France. It reminded her of children drawing lines in the dirt, and daring each other not to cross it. [Later in that same paragraph] It seemed to Nicolette that she and many others would never again experience the simplicity and security like that of their childhoods.

I’ve been told a good writer should try to eliminate the word “it” as much as possible. If you do, you’ll be forced to be more descriptive. Near the beginning of your story, you have five “it’s.” If you took them out, you might have something like this:

Nicolette resented how the French military did not fully prepare for the potential of an invasion. While the rest of the world made advancements to make superior war machines, and all the French could do was to come up with some idiotic wall to keep the intruders out of France. The timid, ineffective effort reminded her of children drawing lines in the dirt, and daring each other not to cross… The people of France might never again feel the simple security of their childhoods. Hopefully this passage seems tighter and more active. Also, many times you can delete phrases like “It seemed as if” and “Nicolette felt like.” Instead, just state what you mean. Since we’re already in her point of view, the reader will automatically make the leap of thought that says, this is what Nicolette thinks personally.

After that, there is a rather large chunk of backstory exposition explaining the situation up to the point where we start the story. If you haven’t already, you might consider either cutting it out (Is it really necessary for the reader to know that her parents own a bakery?) Frankly, I think that much of it could be deleted without harming the story at all. Another possibility is to dribble it in here and there. For instance, the fact that works in a travel agency doesn’t have to be mentioned here, but rather where she goes to work or comes home from it. “Nicolette went to work early the next morning. The travel agency was empty of customers…”

…it was through Demi she met Armand, the one true love of her life. –My first reaction is, “So I’m just supposed to believe this?” Because I’m an avid romance reader, I want to be shown that they are soul mates. Don’t just tell me that. For instance, the next line is Armand asking her what is wrong. To show that they are connected on a deep loving level, you could write something like, “From the day they met, Armand had an uncanny ability to gauge her moods.” Then go on to give a concrete example of how this enhances their loving relationship, a memory perhaps. This type of thing will communicate a pre-established love between two people.

Moving towards him, she sighed, and said, “Oh Armand, nothing is the same anymore. I hate this war and all the misery it brings. So many lives tortured. Why can’t things go back to they way they once were?” I sort of picture Nicki just moping around because the war is so bad. What I think might have been more effective is to have an incident occur that day to trigger her sadness and bring it to the forefront. People usually react to events in their lives. Use this and your characters will seem more realistic.

It scares me Armie.
God Nicki, you are so beautiful to me.” Since I saw this error a lot in the story, I thought I’d mention it. Anytime you have someone addressing someone else by name or nickname or endearment, you must set the name off from the rest of the words with a comma. “It scares me, Armie.” “God, Nicki, you are so beautiful to me.” (Two commas needed in the second example.)

Armie take me, make love to me Armie. I want you so bad. Make me cum.”
--The first sex scene might have been softer and not so urgent. You lead up to it with statements about their love and with them declaring their love for each other. Love can certainly be urgent and graphic, but because she was just minutes ago feeling despondent over the war and her emotional ties to the city, it might have been better to put a rosier glow on the sex act. Also, this is taking place in the forties. This type of rough sex talk seems out of place to me. Hell, I know people probably talked that way then too, but to me it seems very odd. (You also later have Demi say, “things are okay,” which seems modern too.)

If it were my story, I would have made the sex scene be an extension of how Armand tries to bring her out of her melancholy. He could remind her that yes, much has changed for the worse, but make the point that because of the war, they have each other and their love for each other. Then, you have a perfect set up for the physical expression of that love, provided you write it in a romantic, soulful union, not a hard fast fuck.

I wonder about Demi choosing to talk about the Resistance at a café. Seems a little careless for so dangerous a conversation. But I really know very little about that time period.

As she approached the kitchen and took one look into his eyes, she knew instantly that Demi had forewarned him. She moved to him, allowing him to take her in his arms, where she felt his strength and love, and did not want to let him go. The tears began uncontrollably, and his soothing words did not seem to alleviate the fear she now experienced. Armand pushed her away, breaking her hold on him. He took her face in his hands, kissing away the tears.
--This is a good paragraph that shows the depth of their relationship. It shows how well she knows him that she can read his expression. It shows his tenderness. I might have substituted “touch” for “words,” since we don’t really hear what he says.

Armand took her in his arms, pulled her close, reinforcing his love for her, but told her the Resistance needed him more, and she had to understand this. I would like to have heard his exact words. You might consider (in your next revision! LOL) taking this opportunity to show Armand’s deep sense of patriotism and good character. Let him express how agonizing this decision is for him. How much he loves her, and yet how many lives depend on his actions. Show his self-sacrifice to the readers and make them care about him. Also, I would have taken this opportunity to make the sex scene preceding this a poignant Good Bye Sex scene. Have Armie really try to communicate his love and anguish at leaving her through is lovemaking.

Maybe it was time for her to help too. She needed to get out of Paris and find Armand. I found it a jump for Nicolette to be so despondent and depressed for weeks and then just suddenly decide to take action. Again, it would be more effective to have some incident spark her determination and motivate her.

She knew they had her under surveillance, and would watch her every move. .. Fighting back the tears, she knew that at this point she had to leave Paris to find Armand. Her hatred for the Germans grew intensely deeper. This seemed contradictory to me. She’s completely inexperienced at eluding anyone. She knows they’ll be watching her, yet she still decides to find Armand. At this point I want to slap her. I don’t like feeling this irritated with heroines. She would lead them right to Armand.

Also, why wasn't she followed?

The rain ride to Caen was long, too long. This was not the first time she had been to the coast. Growing up, her family often went to Cherbourg or Brest on holiday, and each trip provided Nicolette with wonderful memories. However, Nicolette now had trouble recalling them. People swarmed on to the train at each stop, but only after identity, papers and bags were checked and double checked by the military. No longer was the train filled with happy people going on holiday to the coast. Everyone seemed depressed and in a hurry, and the heat of summer added to everyone’s discomfort. Nicolette found it hard to relax, and even when she dozed off, her thoughts became nightmares without Armand in her life. THIS is the kind of paragraph that SHOWS Nicolette’s longing for the past. It illustrates nicely the contrast between life before and after the war much better than your stating it earlier in the story. Aim for more concrete examples rather than just telling us things are different.

I think Armand might have given the three men some sort of token or a way of assuring Nicki that they were really his friends, like a memory that only the two of them would know.

At the end, Nicolette took a big step, for her—leaving her beloved Paris. But I feel like you were aiming for this emotional revelation at the end, so much so that Armand felt it, and yet I couldn’t help thinking, “All she did was get on a train. And then, stupidly, she just got in the car with those men.” If it had been my story, I would have contrived for her to be in real danger. Put her in a situation where she was given a choice to help someone directly or chicken out. The fact that it’s her choice is important even though it terrifies her. In fact, you can even make it more important by having her avoid helping earlier in the story. Perhaps she comes into information that will help save Armand’s life, or the lives of some of the people in his charge. Perhaps the Nazis let something slip during their interrogation of her and she has to get that info to Armand. There are a lot of possibilities.

Also, I thought the dropping of the hat was going to be significant, that someone put something in the hat for her to find. When you draw attention to something like that in this type of story, I expect it to be important to the story. Otherwise, why have it occur at all? Just my opinion.

All in all, I think you’re gutsy for attempting to set a story in WWII Paris. It’s a time period ripe for romance, really. Lovers parting because of war is always poignant and moving. I think you could have punched that up a little. I liked Armand. I wish I could have seen more of his strength in his actions. I never got to see him DO anything heroic. I still felt he was a hero, but my feelings of admiration for him would have been much stronger if I could have seen him BE a hero. I had some trouble with Nicki. She did grow, which I always feel is important for the main characters, but to me it seemed like you saw her growing in a big way, and I only saw her grow a teensy bit. It’s fine if she only grows a teensy bit, but don’t make it seem like a big thing at the end. I also liked the Nazi scene. I felt some real tension there.

As usual, I hope my comments are helpful. That is the spirit in which I write them. I know from experience it can be tough to hear criticism about your writing, but I’ve always found it valuable to know how someone reacted specifically to a story.

 

[christo]

Maybe I'm just sick, or I have a poor opinion of how the French behaved in WWII, but I kept waiting for Armand to reveal himself as a collaborator, as working for the Nazis. It's probably my own prejudices, but I had this vibe going that Armand was seducing Nicolette for some sinister purpose. Of course I ended up being wrong.

As was posted before, this was written for a contest and there may have been a word limit involved. That was what I wanted from this story-- more. More exposition, more time taken developing the plot, more time to build suspense, a more serious problem for the lovers to overcome, etc. The scenes in the story are not themselves rushed, but the flow of the narrative could be improved with a broader storyline.

In a story like this, I don't want to say that the sex scenes are superfluous, but I don't think they need to be as explicit in their description as a story that is intended to primarily titilate the reader. The story can be erotic without the sex being as explicit, unless the sex is the main thrust of the story (no pun intended).

I'm writing a story myself set in France during WWII, right before the Normandy invasion, in fact. It's a situation ripe with possibilities, France during the Occupation. A nation humiliated by its quick capitulation, the Germans parading through Paris, the Resistance doing what it can to help the Allied war effort, and collaborators betraying their own people. A high-stakes game, played during the most terrible war in human history. And I think that, had the story been longer and more fleshed out, the intensity of the situation would have been felt more keenly.

I think Nitengale had a handle on the time and place, and with the characters. Whether it would be worth it to go back and really dig into the situation and expand the story would be up to her, but I think it has excellent potential.

Sorry that I've been MIA for a bit on the board, but I just moved and am only getting things like light and heat and cable, precious cable, back on. This is it, I'm not moving again for 15 years.

 

[Weird Harold]

Let's keep on topic people. This thread is about nitengale's story, not about each other.

Not that WhisperSecret left much to discuss. (unless someone is brve enough to disagree with any of her points. )

 

[nitengale]

nitengale responds...

First, thanks to those who took the time to read my story and then follow through with feedback. I have learned that feedback is valuable, and appreciate it!!

Okay, my response.

I wish I had the opportunity to oppose the posting of this story, because I would have, HOWEVER the first feedback was posted BEFORE I had the chance to do just that. I am only saying this because this version of the story is old, very old, and it has been put through the wringer many, many times! ( I am going to point out, because I see WH’s eyes rolling, that I did request this story to be reviewed here, BUT that was back in April!! I am also wondering why he edited that post on May 26th?? WH??)

As I stated earlier, this story was written as an submission to a story writing challenge on another site. I had a few weeks to write it, and it was then judged by seven people, with feedback then provided. After the story was submitted for judging I then posted it here, where it rec’d Laurel’s “E.” Since that time, I have been working with an editor to re-write and focus on developing my weak areas in writing this story. So believe me when I tell you I have spent more time on this story than anything I have ever written, so not all of your comments are new to me. In fact, so much so, I'd like to have Armand and Nicole captured and taken away!

THE SEX: Yes, I know it was over the top and not appropriate for what is probably more of a romantic story than erotic. It has been tamed significantly in the rewrite. In fact, so much so, I have to wonder ‘did they just have sex?’

THE LENGTH: I have realized that it should be longer, and it has had some additions made. Unfortunately, with the time constraint and word limit for the challenge, it was not lengthy. I do agree with everyone’s comments here! I also have focused more on the “growth” of Nicole (no longer Nicolette) and may in the future add more about Armand.

THE HISTORICAL DATA: As Sonia has pointed out, I did have some facts to straighten out, and I have in the newest rewrite. Although in regards to her remark that I need to take time to research facts, I can only say, YOU have no idea how much I did research!! It seems like endless hours were spent covering a ton of WWII material. I did the best I could in the period I had...

GRAMMAR: I hope through my work with my editor, who has shown me she is as passionate about my writing as she is her own, that I have improved in this area as well. I think I have!

Again, I appreciate everyone taking the time to help me find myself as a writer! I am learning, and as long as there are people out there who take the time to help one another, we can all continue to learn and grow as writers! It is not always an easy task.

I do wish the editor from Literotica would have really taken the time to help me the right way. I have learned.

I'd also like to know what criteria Laurel uses to place her "E" on a story. Laurel?

 

[Weird Harold]

Re: nitengale responds...

( I am going to point out, because I see WH’s eyes rolling, that I did request this story to be reviewed here, BUT that was back in April!! I am also wondering why he edited that post on May 26th?? WH??)

If you'll note the date this thread was started, it is also (early) Sat 26 Mar, and the edit to your message was a bookkeeping thing for me to keep track of which stories have been scheduled for discussion. (in the case of your post, I added "[scheduled for discussion 28 May 2001]" when I created this thread.)

To you and all of the other authors who have nominated stories. You can edit your post to remove the nomination if it is no longer timely or desireable to have your story discussed. Or, you can e-mail me, and I will mark your post as removed from nomination as I did Paul C.'s.

I apologize for forgetting to add the reminder for participants to wait until Monday (7:00 AM GMT for those whose clocks run faster than ours.) to post comments to this thread as I do to most others.

The delay between starting the thread and the beginning of discussions is to allow everyone time to read the story, and for the author to comment or object.

I think that the discussion of your story has been useful. If not to you, then to the budding authors who read these discussions without commenting. Although I hope you learned something new from the discussion as well.

 

[nitengale]

Thanks!

WH...for your answers.

Yes, I have learned. And will continue to learn.

Now, lets leave poor Nicole and Armand alone, shall we?