26 Sep 2001: Dark Seduction by Mickie

[Laurel]

From the author nominations thread a story in the nonconsent category:

Dark Seduction
by Mickie
http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=13395

Dig In!!

 

[Mickie]

Hi, Everyone! I'm hoping that a little advertising will help people find this place, so I've posted an invite on the feedback board.

The story is Dark Seduction. Posted in the non-consent category, this is one of my favorites! A young woman is forced to enjoy sex with a man who haunts the rest of her life. There is a tangled past involving both her parents and the parents of the rapist. The sex is hot and ripe with lust. If you enjoy conflict and lust, then this is a must read for you.

I'm thinking about doing this as a novel in the dim future. Thoughts on this are welcome. Plus -- I'd like to know, does this fit the 'typical' rape fantasy category? What are your ideas about the subject? What do you, as both readers and writers, enjoy in a nonconsent story?

On the flip side, does this fall short in some ways? Grammar aside, does the STORY need work? Does it take you where you wanted to go?

Tell me about the characters. Do you like them? Dislike them? Why?

The setting. Is it appropriate for this story? Is there a better setting that you can think of?

Does the writing style advance or inhibit the story? Would it have been better to write in a more realistic sense, without all of the imagery?

Most of all, know that, as a writer, I accept all kinds of opinions. Ultimately, I decide whether or not to include it into my work, but ALL opinions, whether of readers or other authors, have merit in my eyes.

So, let's roll, people!

Mickie

 

[abashed-dreamer]

I'm thinking about doing this as a novel in the dim future. Thoughts on this are welcome. Plus -- I'd like to know, does this fit the 'typical' rape fantasy category? What are your ideas about the subject? What do you, as both readers and writers, enjoy in a nonconsent story?

*Yes, fairly typical. Ferocious resistence, skillful manipulation, tremendous orgasm. All the first scenes are minor variations of this; the later scenes begin instead with lustful reluctance, but are extremely similar to one another.

On the flip side, does this fall short in some ways? Grammar aside, does the STORY need work? Does it take you where you wanted to go?

*The story idea is fine, revenge, but it's eclipsed.

Tell me about the characters. Do you like them? Dislike them? Why?

*In my opinion, there is not much real characterization.

Does the writing style advance or inhibit the story? Would it have been better to write in a more realistic sense, without all of the imagery?

To me, the style is off putting. The story, in a word, is overwritten, in my opinion.
"A deep sigh of relief stretched Henry's chest as he released his straining prick from the confines of his trousers."

"Darkness encompassed her vision as she looked out over her father's land."

There is also inconsistency is style, as the second sentence shows.

**
Since your imagination is good, as is your vocabulary, a bit--no a mountain--of self restraint is needed; you can produce clean, lucid prose, but it seems your aim was to fancy things up. What I'm trying to say is your ability and skills are fine, but it seems you are following a flawed set of directions (or self directions) as to style.

 

[Mickie]

Thanks, abashed, for taking the time! I think you bring up a few things worth thinking about here. Anyone can answer the questions I’m going to pose, not just abashed-dreamer. That’s the point of discussion.

First, this was the comment on my question -- is this a typical rape fantasy?
*Yes, fairly typical. Ferocious resistence, skillful manipulation, tremendous orgasm. All the first scenes are minor variations of this; the later scenes begin instead with lustful reluctance, but are extremely similar to one another.

Is there any way to change the similarity and still keep the flavor of the piece? Or is it necessary to change them? In novel form, the addition of sub-plots would change some of the flavor, giving it a less single-minded approach, wouldn’t it?

The comment on my question about the story, itself --
*The story idea is fine, revenge, but it's eclipsed.

How is it eclipsed? By what? Is revenge truly eclipsed by the sex situation, or is it enhanced by it? I’m guessing as to what might have eclipsed it.

Comment on the characters --
*In my opinion, there is not much real characterization.

Okay, but what might have given it more characterization? What kinds of things might have been added in order to make the characters more realistic?

The writing style --
*To me, the style is off putting. The story, in a word, is overwritten, in my opinion.

You’ve given one instance where the sentence is a little wordy, and another where the sentence is more straight-forward, and comment that the style is inconsistent.

Do the inconsistencies take away from the style? Is that why you comment that the style put you off? Overwriting. Is this a personal reaction, or it actually a general feeling? Anyone else think this way on it? I know I, as a reader, prefer more detail in sentences, which is why I write this way. I try to balance it out with the more straight-forward sentences, to give it a varied sound, rather than constant droning on and on.

*Since your imagination is good, as is your vocabulary, a bit--no a mountain--of self restraint is needed; you can produce clean, lucid prose, but it seems your aim was to fancy things up. What I'm trying to say is your ability and skills are fine, but it seems you are following a flawed set of directions (or self directions) as to style.

This last comment made me smile. Self-restraint has never been my strong point. *Grins* Fancy things up. Yes, that’s exactly what I was aiming for. Who wants to read about things that are normal, straight as an arrow forward, and have no flair? My question here is -- is there really a concrete rule about style? Style is a personal affectation, and it’s supposed to be as individual as the writer is as a person. Can there be a right or wrong to it, as long as grammar is reasonably correct and so on?

More opinions are needed here, and abashed-dreamer comes up with some really good discussion ideas. Anyone else want to have a say?

Again, thanks for getting the ball rolling, abashed!

Mickie

 

[Mickie]

Pleonexia sent this to me as an email, and has graciously allowed me to post it here to further the discussion. Thanks Pleonexia!

I just read your story, and I wanted to rattle this off before I forgot my first impressions. If you're interested in my later impressions, hit me back and we'll dialogue or something. Yeah.

First off, Oh. My. God. I need chocolate. No, I need a cigarette. No, fuck that, where's my vibrator? I *was* working on a story of my own before I decided to take a break and stumbled upon yours, but now I can't get your characters out of my head. Guess I won't be doing any more writing of my own tonight...thank you very much! I especially can't get Grace's de-virginization (is that a word?) out of my head....that scene was hot! I'm not sure what you meant when you asked whether this story fit in the "typical" rape category, but I'd say that that scene alone pole-vaults it into the uber-sexy rape category.

Characters. Loved them. Except Edward; he was whiny little prude. But I guess that was the point, wasn't it? I get bored if I can't hate a character or two in a story. Speaking of, I absolutely hated Aidan at the beginning...until I loved him. And even though I love him now, I still hate him just a li'l bit for being a prideful man and perpetuating the rape cycle in the first place. I imagine I feel much the same way Grace does at the end of the story, when she claims to still hate Aidan. (The ending, by the way, was genius. I absolutely loved how Grace turned the tables on the whole situation and resolved it by "raping" Aidan back. Guess you just have to leave some things to women or they'll never get solved...back to categories, I think the ending also puts you in the gyno-mite rape fantasy category. Rock on, sista.)

If I have any complaints to make (and they're minor), they're over the first chunk of dialogue between Aidan and Grace. I choked on the words in my head because the characters sounded so artificial in that scene. I think you need to tone down the melodrama there; it makes the characters seem too artificial right at the beginning, and that's not the first impression of them I want to have.

As for the setting, I'm not sure what exactly it is, but I kinda like the ambiguity. I was torn between imagining some kinda Renaissance or maybe Victorian Europe-y setting, or a more American Deep South, Gone with the Wind plantation setting. I think if you hadn't specified that Henry was blonde, I would've been tempted to cast him as a black slave in my mind. Not sure why. Also, I couldn't figure out Henry's accent. Did you have some kind of Cockney-ish serving-class British thing in mind, or was it more cornbread Southern? Does Henry even have an accent, or was I just making that up in my head?

Finally, the writing style. I loved it. The imagery worked well within the story; it made the whole thing kinda surreal-feeling, like Wuthering Heights. (That comparison may only make sense in my mind. I'm referring to the feeling I get after I finish Wuthering Heights. It reminds me of the mood of your story.) I especially liked the whole halo/damnation theme; it kept popping up just often enough to color the whole story and make it that much more surreal. In the final scene, did you intend for me to envision Grace's casting off of her chemise as a parallel to her shedding her angel's wings, or did I make that up in my head? Either way, it was a really cool image.

Hope at least some of this helps. Know that I write with the best of intentions. I think your story is awesome, and I want you to write more. More of it, more of other stuff, whatever. Just keep writing--you've got one devoted fan, at least.

--pleonexia

 

[Mickie]

Pleo -- you can have the chocolate, the cig, AND the vibrator!

So far, we’ve had two really different views on Dark Seduction, although I can spot some similarities. Pleonexia comments on the characters being stilted in the beginning, too artificial. Is that what you meant by lack of characterization, Abashed-dreamer? That might have been the problem you had with the style, as well. It runs a little ‘unrealistic’. In contrast, Pleonexia ‘loved’ the characters, except for Edward, the prude -- and yes, he was supposed to be a whiny prude so her losing him wouldn’t alienate the reader from Aidan too much.

Speaking of Aidan -- he’s the traditional ‘dark hero’. You hate him at first and then grow to understand him, thus finding compassion. Obviously, this succeeded for Pleonexia, but not for Abashed-Dreamer. I think I have an idea of why.

It occurred to me, in writing the last paragraph, that I write for a female audience. Abashed is male. Could that have any bearing on why he didn’t care for the style or the characters? Dark Seduction is a dark romance, not a stroke story, and the florid style is off-putting for those who are looking for pornography.

The setting was deliberately left ambiguous. I wanted a bit of a surreal impression, almost other-worldly. So, the reader can put it wherever they want. Deep South, European, or even on some distant planet. Henry’s accent was -- well -- what I heard in my head when he spoke. Yes, I wanted to give the impression that he was less educated, and less refined than Aidan. Specifics? I didn’t have any.

I read ‘Wuthering Heights’ in Jr. High. It’s actually one of the better plotted romance novels out there. I decided I was Heathcliff. I wanted to be that kind of dark, passionate person. It definitely influenced my writing, at least in using dark heroes and strong heroines.

Any symbolism you might see in the story is purely accidental. I write what I see in my head, and what I see isn’t necessarily plotted out. I think, in some ways, theme affects it in an unconscious way, but it’s never planned.

Thanks again, Pleonexia and Abashed-Dreamer! Two very different opinions, but with some similarities. My question is -- How important is it to write for the intended audience? Male, female, etc. Any thoughts out there?

Mickie

 

[abashed-dreamer]

"Dark Seduction is a dark romance, not a stroke story and its
florid style is off putting for those looking for pornography."

I don't agree with these points. It's a porno-mantic story, with obviously added porn details to arouse the reader. I agree, for instance with Pleonexia that the defloration scene is hot. It's good porn, not over written. (No florid and dark romance keeps one so informed, moment by moment, of the state of clits and cocks.)

Florid is not the only thing: your choice of words is often strange:
How does a sigh "stretch across a chest"?

I will email you some other example, since I can't figure how to paste here.

 

[JUDO]

Romance

Mick -

Why you sly devil! I should have guessed what a romantic you were, but it escaped me somehow.

You asked a few questions with some of your introduction of DS...

Pertaining to what is wanted in a rape fantasy. I would like you to go slower, fill the reader in on everything that is going through the mind of Grace. I thought a nice setup might be what she had expected of her first "de-flowering" as opposed to what she was to receive. Also, I thought she might attempt to bargain her way out of the situation. You can have this if you let me go...etc.

I thought Aidan, being a knowledgeable gentleman, might take his time in certain places, particular towards the end of the story. Instead of a statement "I want to feel your cunt clutch my cock." at the outset, perhaps a little more seduction, more provoking until the tale-tell signs are there and she knows that he knows she wants him.

But, all-in-all a great yarn. Not sure how you might expand this into a larger novel, perhaps this would just be the beginning of a longer lifelong journey for Grace (disgraced but well-heeled by ex-lovers, admirers and her father's estate).


- Judo

 

[Mickie]

Thanks All -- again! Sorry I haven't been as 'present' here as I wanted to be. I never know when the server won't be working. IP is doing some upgrading that should be done next week. The cable modem server (or whatever they use?) is down completely right now.

I'll be looking through your email and the post, abashed, but I'd like some time to phrase my comments. Definitely thought provoking.

Judo, as ever, you offer some good suggestions. There are a few subplots that never come out in this, but will tie in nicely if I wanted to expand it. Yeah, I'm a romantic. I still believe in Santa! (Only she wears a silk teddy to bed and calls me Honey. *grins*)

Hopefully, I'll be back later today with a few new thoughts on how to get this discussion circle moving again --

Mickie

 

[JUDO]

Ouch! Ho-ho-ho!

Mick -

Great! Now I have this image of a 300 lb., hairy guy with a bright red teddy and long white beard whispering, "Let's do it under the Christmas tree, ho-ho-ho." Now, I know what that twinkle in his eye is all about. Sheesh!


- Judo

 

[Mickie]

LOL Judo! Don't we just looooove Christmas! Hey, what about the Great Pumpkin? I can imagine the image that one inspired...

Mick

 

[The_old_man]

Dark Seduction

I found the story very reminisiant of the standard #2 Gothic Romance. Don't take this wrong as I think it well written.

Some of the sciens were, to me, a bit wordy, but that goes with the format.

Charictoration: Took too long to fill out. This also may be part of the format.

As my comments indicate: I don't care for Gothic.
I am not comfortable with "Non-concent"

 

[abashed-dreamer]

Hi Mickie,
I did email you some example sentences at
lpaetz@cableone.net. Did you receive them?
As to your second set of questions. The similarity of the
early sex scenes comes in the sexual area, the arousal descriptions. To have variety you would have to get into the mind of the character, more. And her mind would have to be a little more developed, as you develop her character. At present she is virginal, resistant, proud, and (under the surface) lustful and that's about it. When her sex organs are skillfully manipulated, she becomes a crazed nymph and falls in love besides. All in all, a simple soul. Not three dimensional in any sense.

abashed-dreamer

 

[Mickie]

Thanks, Abashed. I did receive them. Sorry to be taking so long to answer, but I'm a bit busy this week trying to re-organize this circle. I PROMISE to answer this weekend. Hopefully by Saturday night.

Mickie

 

[Mickie]

Okay, it’s Saturday -- the house is quiet, and I’m hoping to get a couple hours uninterrupted thought here. First, Abashed, I want to say that I really appreciate the time and effort you’re taking to tear apart my story! Seriously, you put a lot of thought into this and bring up some pretty good points. Took me at my word, you did, and I want to thank you.

It took me a day or two to get over wanting to defend my writing. I never want to answer an edit out of defensivness. It takes away from the good I can learn. First, though, I’d like to address something that may or may not be a problem -- most writers will not (me included), as a result of this discussion, be very quick to do a re-write and resubmit to Laurel. This is really for education only, and don’t expect your insights to push a change into the general quality of writing at Lit.

That said, I’ll head into the discussion -- Most of the problems Abashed have pointed out have to do with the flowery language I used in this story (and a few others). Okay, I’ll admit some of it is over the top. I tend to overwrite in someways, and I’m addressing the useage of so many of those ‘ly’ words. Pitifully, etc. I’m not going to go though each of the instances that you mentioned, for that would lend itself far more to defence rather than education. I will, however, talk in a general fashion about a few of your comments that strike me as more about the entirety of the story rather than specific, individual preferences.

The first thing I thought about after reading through all of your comments was the term ‘poetic license’. Okay, I know people in rl don’t speak like this. We’d all laugh our socks off if we heard this kind of speech in rl. However, I was setting up a place where speech like this is appropriate. He talks flowery, like a romantic writer, and yes, during sex a man can get very flowery and a certain kind of woman would be appreciative of it rather than laugh. This kind of woman was the audience I was aiming for -- my spouse, to be specific. Not that she reads my stuff, but I still write to her and sometimes about her. Also the woman who requested a specific story about her own rape fantasy, who is a friend of mine. I still believe that this kind of flowery and overdone speech is appropriate to the setting and kind of character Aidan is.

However -- in the prose sections I could have toned it down a bit to give Aidan’s speech more of a dramatic impact. You’ve hit the nail on the head without actually using a hammer, Abashed. I broke my own rule of balance here. I took my perception of Aidan’s character and infused it into the narrative prose. I should have realized it, but didn’t. Thank you. When I do the re-write for the novel, I’ll be aware of it. And, when I do the re-write, I’ll also be less casual with the use of ‘ly’ words and more precise about marking the difference with Aidan’s lines and the narrative.

Quote from Abashed --
_____________________________
"Dark Seduction is a dark romance, not a stroke story and its
florid style is off putting for those looking for pornography."

I don't agree with these points. It's a porno-mantic story, with obviously added porn details to arouse the reader. I agree, for instance with Pleonexia that the defloration scene is hot. It's good porn, not over written. (No florid and dark romance keeps one so informed, moment by moment, of the state of clits and cocks.)

Florid is not the only thing: your choice of words is often strange:
How does a sigh "stretch across a chest"?
____________________

Okay, I can accept that viewpoint, but I still have to stick with my own conception that the description of sex is not pornographic, but part of the dark romance. My reasons have to do with the way I describe things other than sex. It’s just as detailed. Just because the sex is just as detailed as a description of a garden in moonlight doesn’t make the sex scenes pornographic. Yes, the arousal factor is there. I should hope it is. However, the only real difference between pornography and erotic romance is not the sexual detail, but the surrounding elements. Porno-mantic. That phrase made me chuckle. Yes, I suppose it is, but I was coming across with the idea of erotic romance rather than pornography. It’s a touchy subject with me, mainly because I dislike true porn, both visual and auditory. I’m a romantic soul at heart, and I probably listen far too much to the women in my life.

Choice of words -- you mention that more than once. A sigh DOES stretch the chest. It’s an indrawn breath that is let out slowly. I suppose it also deflates the chest, so I might want to think about it before actually finalizing the sentence. Again, you bring up a point that I had to explain to understand the error. A lot of your comments are like this. You know, you’d make a good editor. You have a good eye.

Quote from Abashed --
___________________
As to your second set of questions. The similarity of the
early sex scenes comes in the sexual area, the arousal descriptions. To have variety you would have to get into the mind of the character, more. And her mind would have to be a little more developed, as you develop her character. At present she is virginal, resistant, proud, and (under the surface) lustful and that's about it. When her sex organs are skillfully manipulated, she becomes a crazed nymph and falls in love besides. All in all, a simple soul. Not three dimensional in any sense.
________________

I agree with your thoughts of developing the character more in the beginning. I just started writing about Aidan when I started this, not about her. However, she became more real as I continued writing about her. In a rewrite, I would definitely find more to make her an individual, more developed as a person rather than an object of Aidan’s revenge. The big problem with her is that she’s an innocent in the beginning, and to reach that far back into my own history to find myself in her is difficult. I don’t find innocence to be a virtue in a woman. I guess it’s difficult to write about someone you 1) don’t understand completely, and 1) don’t really like. I’ll work on that.

I’d like to thank you again, Abashed. I know you probably thought I was putting this off until it just faded out because I disagreed with you. However, I was only putting it off until I could get beyond the personal defence system. Keep adding to these discussions! You have good gift of seeing the trees instead of the entirety of the forest.

Quote from The Old Man --
_________________________
Dark Seduction
I found the story very reminisiant of the standard #2 Gothic Romance. Don't take this wrong as I think it well written.

Some of the sciens were, to me, a bit wordy, but that goes with the format.

Charictoration: Took too long to fill out. This also may be part of the format.

As my comments indicate: I don't care for Gothic.
I am not comfortable with "Non-concent"
___________________________________________

I’d like to seriously thank The Old Man for reading and commenting on a story that was obviously ‘not his cup of tea’. It shows a dedication to adding to the discussions even though he doesn’t care for the subject matter. I’d like to reassure those that dislike some of the categories that, in the discussion circle, there will never be more than one story in a category during the month. That will make it fair for those who really will not read anything they feel disturbs them. I understand that some of the subject matter might not be individually palateable, and will try to provide enough variety for you to pick and choose what you comment on.

All in all, I think, even though I’ve been inordinately busy during this discussion, we’ve had a good turnout for it, and I’ve gotten a few new and different ideas on my own writing. I’ll be incorporating some of what I’ve learned into future works, which, I hope, will make my stories more enjoyable to read.

Thanks!
Mickie

 

[Sateema Lunasi]

Dark Seduction

This is a good story. I don't have any experience with nonconsent stories and I don't entertain that particular fantasy, but reading it with an open mind, it is well put together. I have to agree with the above points that I think it is a little over written, but I found it entertaining in the way that those 1960's gothic romances are entertaining. That is a good thing in my opinion.