21 May 2001: Vanished Ch1-23 By Suzy Samuels

[Weird Harold]

This week's random choice is from the top 500 stories list.

The random number selected chapter three of a twenty-three chapter novel. The link is to chapter one, but I will leave it up to the participants ast to whether they discuss only chapter three or the whole novel.

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=3210

Vanished
By Suzy Samuels

Please note the date in the thread title, and refrain from posting until that date (0001 Hrs PST or 0801 hrs GMT).

The threads are posted early to give the authors a chance to post an introduction or objection before the discussion begins. Early posting also gives everyone a chance to read the selection without prejudice before discussion begins.

 

[Suzie Samuels]

Introduction to Vanished

I am immensely pleased that this group has chosen Vanished for discussion. Yet, I am also very apprehensive to have my baby exposed to the light of day and see what readers and writers alike think of my fantasy.

This story is pure fiction built on a kernel of truth. I did travel alone on business through the high desert country and did go through a forest fire (well it was off to the side of the road) and it was a controlled burn. Actually in the past I had traveled through another forest fire and saw the panicked animals fleeing the inferno that had been their home. I felt their panic it was palpable.

While in the high desert country I was extremely taken with the rugged beauty that surrounded me. I wished I could have just bought a little cabin and stayed forever. I am sure that I’d never tire of the panoramas. The part about of the story where Suzie crossed the cattle gate and snoozed under the pine tree is true. I did shed my hose and hike my skirt up but that is as far as reality goes. The site where Suzie crashed the car is an actual location, but I can’t tell you which road it was on because I only travel by the sun. I know the major roads that I need to intersect with and I just let the wanderlust possess me. It is a wonderful way for me to loose the everyday stresses of my busy life.

I figure the folks who live in that high desert country have one of the best locations in the world to stake their claim - to a piece of heaven on earth.

Based on the ruggedness of the area, I am sure that the setting of my story is certainly just over the next rise, off to the right up that fire road and around the bend. Watch for it when you are out exploring.

I am just finishing a major rewrite of the story and will soon have it ready. I am not sure whether to launch it chapter by chapter or wait until I have the whole novel completed then launch it. Either way, I certainly look forward to your thoughts and critiques about how I can make Suzie’s adventures better. Please tell me what works for you and what doesn’t.

Thanks to Literotica for giving me a forum to post my fantasies. And to all my readers a very big thank your for taking the time to read, vote and write to me about how my fantasies touch them.

Suzie Samuels

 

[Weird Harold]

Suzzy says:
I am just finishing a major rewrite of the story and will soon have it ready. I am not sure whether to launch it chapter by chapter or wait until I have the whole novel completed then launch it. Either way, I certainly look forward to your thoughts and critiques about how I can make Suzie’s adventures better. Please tell me what works for you and what doesn’t.

Thanks to Literotica for giving me a forum to post my fantasies. And to all my readers a very big thank your for taking the time to read, vote and write to me about how my fantasies touch them.

I certainly think you captured the solitude and beauty of the high desert forests. Most people don't realize that there are forests in the "Desert" so you might find a few quibbles about that being presented.

I settled for just reading through chapter four, because chapters five and six are the same text. I therefore didn't get into Suzie's acceptance of her situation, which I'm sure is what happens from the blurbs Laurel added to the rest of the chapters.

The one thing that struck me as being "improveable" is the chapter divisions. I'm not sure exactly how I would break them into chapters, but I felt that chapters one through four were really only two, or maybe three chapters. It made me wonder whether separately posted chapters were really best for this particular story. I think, if it were mine, I would post it as a single story and let the software break it into web pages and use chapter headings/titles in the text to divide the chapters.

This was not an easy story for me to "get into." Partly because the subject matter isn't to my taste, but I think there is more to it than that. I suspect that if I took the time to examine the story instead of just reading it, I'd find a lot of passive voice sentences -- something around 4-5% passive voice. Passive voice tends to make an otherwise riviting story bland and makes "getting into" the story difficult.

I was not attracted at all to the abusive language and tone of Suzie's captor. He switches from gentle explanation to crude and abusive language too abruptly when she wakes up. Later, he seems to use abusive language gratuitously when the situation doesn't require it.

The story concept is very good, and the execution, with the possible exception of too much passive voice, is good. There was a discussion some time ago about the "Stockholm Syndrome" and this seems to be a classic case applied to an erotic story. If you continue to explore the characters feelings and motivations as well as you began, this could easily be an educational story as well as erotic.

You have presented very little sex in the first four chapters. That's not a bad thing, because what sex there is fits into the story-line well. I mention the lack of sex only because this is an "erotic stories" site, and the lack will tend to affect readership. You shouldn't let that affect the vison you have for the story, and you shouldn't add graphic sex gratuitously just for the sake of having sex in each chapter. However, you might consider whether more sex can fit into the plot early on to keep the "perverts' reading succeeding chapters.

On another site, the lack of sex wouldn't be any sort of issue at all but for this audience...

 

[nitengale]

niten's thoughts...

After completing Chapter 3, my curiosity got the best of me, and I went back to Chapter 1 to see how it all started. Then I moved right through to Chapter 13, very quickly.

Chapters 1 and 2 are very slow, and I would suspect most would lose interest and not go on. While this theme is not my cup of tea, I would suspect you have something here that could potentially grab many readers, if your writing style packed a bit more punch. I also think the sex is dull, what little there is of it. Not every story has to reek of sex, but this one needs something to keep the reader’s attention.

You gave us a background on Suzie to some extent, but none on Geoff, and his character warrants some exploration, especially his background. I like to know what makes the characters tick, to some degree. He is puzzling in that he seems to switch moods so erratically.

WH mentioned the shortness of your chapters, and I agree with him. I felt as if I was reading paragraphs and not chapters. You have the potential to combine many of them, and not have the reader feel as if they have to read “so many chapters.”

You have a good theme, but I feel it could be less intimidating to the reader of there were less chapters and a bit more punch in each one.

 

[Laurel]

When this story was first submitted to the site, it was placed in the BDSM category. It's since been moved to N&N, but before the move some felt that it was a better fit in the Nonconsent section because the main character didn't (at first) voluntarily submit. At the same time, there's a definite Master/slave theme to the work. What do you all think? Where would you best classify this novella? Why?

 

[Suzie Samuels]

How would you add more punch

Thanks so much for the honest evaluation of Suzie's tale. When I first posted this story the first 5 chapters were posted as two, then I was advised by several people to keep the chapters to around a magic 3000 words. Hence the shorter chapters when I reposted it and continued the story.

How do you suggest that I add punch to the sex?

If you were me where would you add character analysis of Geoff. I have done quite a bit of that in 12 or 13.

Are you suggesting that I delete some of Geoff's swearing and what would I replace that with to show he is this macho guy for his guests?

Thanks again for your help.

Suzie

 

[nitengale]

Re: How would you add more punch

How do you suggest that I add punch to the sex?

I simply mean add more sex. There's not enough of it to keep the readers attention, especially in light of your theme. The lead up to the sex is way too long.

If you were me where would you add character analysis of Geoff. I have done quite a bit of that in 12 or 13.

Way before chapters 12 or 13. In the first couple of chapters. Let the readers know what kind of man Suzie is dealing with, from the beginning. Where's he coming from? Has he been looking for a slut wife long? Is there something in his past that drives this? Like I said this is personal...I like character buildup in a story.
AS far as Geoff's language...he just seems to switch gears rapidly from simple dialog to harsh, crude dialog.

Hope this helps

 

[Weird Harold]

Re: Re: How would you add more punch

If you were me where would you add character analysis of Geoff. I have done quite a bit of that in 12 or 13.

Way before chapters 12 or 13. In the first couple of chapters. Let the readers know what kind of man Suzie is dealing with, from the beginning. Where's he coming from? Has he been looking for a slut wife long? Is there something in his past that drives this?

The simple answer is "everywhere." In practice, it's not quite that simple.

You have to stay within what Suzie knows at any given point in the story because it's a first person narrative. That means you can't just go off into Geoff's past at random or expound on how his mother locked him in a closet when he was three unless Geoff talked about it. That's the only way Suzie can know what drives him.

What you can do, is reveal snippets of Geoff through his dress, speech patterns, pictures on the walls, nic-nacks scattered around for Suzie to wonder about, etc. Framed diplomas, awards, war souvenirs, Brands of TV dinners, and similar "stage derssings" will give both the reader and Suzie little glimpses into his character and background.

An amazing aount of character description can be accomplished without ever mentioning the character directly.

Punching up the sex:

In the first chapter, Suzie strips down to her camisole and black min-skirt, pushes her panties aside and begins to play with herself. That is whole extent of sexual content and description in chapter one.

I think it would be very simple to expand the description into something more graphic and arousing.

What is she thinking about that made her horny, or what does being horny make her imagine? Is the remote solitude making her think about that mountain man just behind the tree who hasn't had a woman in 20 years? Does Bigfoot just have big feet or are other things big too?

I'm not seriously suggesting that you bring bigfoot into your story, even as a fantasy. However, most masturbation is as much mental as it is physical, so a peek into her head at that point could take the story and reader almost anywhere. Is there a sexual episode in her past that involved the quiet solitude of the high desert forest that her current location reminds her of? Maybe a lost opportunity on a camping trip?

I don't think you need to add sex just for the sex, but when it fits into the story without being gratitous, show the reader as much detail as possible without getting sidetracked.

chapter lengths:

You mentioned that you intentionally kept the chapters down to around 3000 words. That puts you chapters at about 1/2 or 2/3 of what the script breaks each page of a multi-page story at. (Chapter one saves at 14KB while multi-page stories break for a new web-page at 25K. I'm not sure how much is story text, and how much is HTML code, hence the uncertainty of the ratio. Certainly most of the difference in file size is story text.)

Chapter one is certainly a "proper" chapter, in that it ends with the accident and her blackout. Where it is lacking as a chapter is in the details lost to an arbitrary word count. Even if you could determine exactly how many words fit in that 25KB cutoff for a new page, putting an arbitrary limit on chapter size hampers your ability to describe things.

Posting your revised story as a single file will eliminate that arbitrary word limit on chapter length and let you tell all of the story smoothly, only breaking for a new chapter as the story dictates.

 

[Weird Harold]

... a better fit in the Nonconsent section because the main character didn't (at first) voluntarily submit. At the same time, there's a definite Master/slave theme to the work.

Taken as a whole, it's a BDSM story, but it would best fit in the Nonconsent category. It's a best fit in the same way that WhisperSecret's Hostile takeover is essentially a romance but best fits in the nonconsent category.

WhisperSecret's logic, which I agree with, is that more people are offended by nonconsent than by Romance (or BDSM). The NC category selection would serve to warn-off those who would be offended most by the plot.

 

[Lynn]

Where to start? VERY LONG.

I don't just want to say ditto about the chapters being brief, since other than having to go find the next link it matters very little. You broke at appropriate points in your story for at least the first three chapters - OK maybe a major thought break instead of chapter, but the whole chapter thing is only relevent here online since things are broken up and hard to follow as seperate links. As apposed to a written tome where you just look further down the page or onto the next page to continue reading. When online with a continuing story or CHAPTERS, you do have to leave the reader hoping for more, leaving them wanting to go in search of your next section, part or chapter.

The story itself through the third chapter was slow.

Character development was vaige. Why does she think she has a perfect life with her husband and her kids so much, when she runs in the morning, works 9 - 10 hours a day and works out for a few hours at night? When is she with her kids or husband at all? Why the abrupt change to sell her company long-distance? Who is this person? All things that should come out early.

The snippett of masterbation was a tease to us. It showed little of her sexuality, little of the actual sex and was not very erotic - and HERE was the perfect chance to either show she has/had no sexuality to her at all, or that she is wild and ready/wanting to be tamed. Either of which I am sure happens in later chapters.

You write well, you have interesting things to say, and you can capture the essence of the sourounding area very well.

Your main characters are lacking. Obviously the male character is lacking since it is a first person telling and she knows nothing about him. But he seems wishy-washy Strong and assholeshly, and soft and caring in a matter of seconds. Now not being into this lifestyle, I do not know if this is the standard beat-down approach, if it is, then I am sorry for that comment and treat me as someone not in the know - and long about the time he gets her to obey, I would be saying to myself, OH, thats how he/they did/do it.

The female character seems wishy-washy as well - which makes her a perfect candidate for Slaveship if you ask me (again from my view outside the lifestyle). The female lead you seem to have down very well. Wishy-washy, unsure, obtuse even to her surroundings, and her being made a beast of his burden (so to speak), not understanding her predicament. VERY WELL DONE.

I believe I have been a little harsh here, please do not interprete this as dumping on the author time. The story has merit and lots of it, it just seems to be starting a little slow for my tastes.

I look forward to the re-write.

 

[KillerMuffin]

I'm one of those people who think that it is a non-consent story, not a BDSM. I think of people like Hecate and WriterDom when I rationalize them. WriterDom and Hecate would never take a slave against their will. Even if she capitulates to it in the end, as in a extreme case of the Stolkholm Syndrome, it is still non-consent because it isn't fully consentual.

Chapter length: Fuck anyone who gives you a magic number about chapter length. They have no idea what they're talking about, there is not magic formula for or specific number of words to make a good chapter. A good chapter has a beginning, a middle, and an ending. It's not like a story ending, but there is some sort of resolution to the scene/s being played out in the chapter.

Addition of sex: I think it's unnecessary to add it to the front simply to placate readers who might drop out. The story, though I thoroughly loathed it, is well written and the characters are defined and three dimensional. Sex at the beginning of a story just to draw a reader in cheats the story. Decide who you're writing the story before you add gratutious sex to it. Are you writing it for those who are going to skip to the sex parts anyway? Or are you writing it for the people who want to read a good story with sex in it? Is it porn or erotica?

 

[Suzie Samuels]

Loathing

Hi KillerMuffin,

I have never had anyone tell me so eloquently tell they loathed my story. LOL

I want to thank all of you for your evaluation of my story.

I have only been writing for less than two years and still have so much to learn. I admire those of you that are true authors. I can only hope that eventually I will learn the art.

Thanks, I will be re-editing it using many of your ideas.

Suzie

 

[KillerMuffin]

To, ah, elucidate. Someone being forced into becoming a slave painslut pisses me the hell off. I would have preferred to fight to the death over it, or so I would imagine had I been in Suzie's situation. I would have moved heavean and earth to bring Geoff to a very long, painfully heinous, and horrifically depraved end or forced him to kill me. Some people can submit happily to such treatment, other people can't.

Content darlin, not writing!

 

[nitengale]

Chapter length: Fuck anyone who gives you a magic number about chapter length. They have no idea what they're talking about, there is not magic formula for or specific number of words to make a good chapter. A good chapter has a beginning, a middle, and an ending. It's not like a story ending, but there is some sort of resolution to the scene/s being played out in the chapter.

Heaven forbid anyone coming to this group have an opinion. What's it like to be so god damn smart KM??

This group gets better all the time!!

 

[nitengale]

KM...

Do you realize that some of us come here to participate in this group to learn?

Being told we have no idea what we are talking about...it's a turn off. You need to participate a little nicer. If you feel the need to let off steam, go play on the GB with the rest of the little kids.

 

[Frank M]

Hmmm...

Nitengale, why are you attacking KM? She didn't direct that comment to this Discussion Circle or to you! And who are you, the Niceness Police???

 

[nitengale]

Re: Hmmm...

Nitengale, why are you attacking KM? She didn't direct that comment to this Discussion Circle or to you! And who are you, the Niceness Police???

Frank, hon...read the whole thread.

 

[Frank M]

Okay, babe.

You're right; I just came in on the end there. Are you a nurse for real? I've always admired the women and men who choose this profession of compassion and careing.

FM

 

[Weird Harold]

Re: KM...

Being told we have no idea what we are talking about...it's a turn off. You need to participate a little nicer. If you feel the need to let off steam, go play on the GB with the rest of the little kids.

Now children!

KM was being nice in her own unique way. I happen to agree pretty much that anyone (other than a publisher stating a requirement for publication) who says chapters should be X number of words does, in fact, not have any idea of what they are talking about.

There is no pre-test required for participation in this forum, so there is bound to be some bad advice put forward. Those of us who see it as bad advice should say so and explain why. Sometimes, a comment is so far off target even meak and mild me is often tempted to forthrightly state my opinion that whoever offered such advice is fucking clueless. It's one of the few ways to emphasize how strongly an opinion is held in this medium.

If anyone over-steps the bounds of opinion into personal attacks, I have no qualms about using the moderator's capabilities to deal with it.

 

[Laurel]

Don't Mess with WH!

If anyone over-steps the bounds of opinion into personal attacks, I have no qualms about using the moderator's capabilities to deal with it.

*runs for cover*

 

[nitengale]

Re: Re: KM...

KM was being nice in her own unique way. I happen to agree pretty much that anyone (other than a publisher stating a requirement for publication) who says chapters should be X number of words does, in fact, not have any idea of what they are talking about.

I would expect as the moderator you are required to read the entire thread. I did not state anywhere that the chapters had to be any specific word count. My quote is as follows:
"WH mentioned the shortness of your chapters, and I agree with him. I felt as if I was reading paragraphs and not chapters. You have the potential to combine many of them, and not have the reader feel as if they have to read “so many chapters.”

My comment was made as an opinion. My opinion, whether it is wrong or not, it is mine. This is a discussion circle?? I would think each of us coming here is allowed to voice an opinion and it is then OPEN for discussion, and at the same time not made to feel like we dont know what we are talking about. You right WH, I am still earning about writing. I come here for that purpose, not to be turned off by this forum.

There is no pre-test required for participation in this forum, so there is bound to be some bad advice put forward. Those of us who see it as bad advice should say so and explain why. Sometimes, a comment is so far off target even meak and mild me is often tempted to forthrightly state my opinion that whoever offered such advice is fucking clueless. It's one of the few ways to emphasize how strongly an opinion is held in this medium.

So as the moderator of this forum you not only support telling someone they are "fucking clueless" you feel compelled to do it as well?? I would think that could be closely associated with being a personal attack. I would take being called "fucking clueless" a personal attack.

I'm a bit puzzled about this forum now. I thought it was a place to discuss stories, to learn, to share...now I have to come prepared to do battle as well??

The forum is described as a place to find "Guided author criticism of specific stories" not criticism of those discussing the stories. Is this not correct??

 

[KillerMuffin]

Re: How would you add more punch

Thanks so much for the honest evaluation of Suzie's tale. When I first posted this story the first 5 chapters were posted as two, then I was advised by several people to keep the chapters to around a magic 3000 words. Hence the shorter chapters when I reposted it and continued the story.

Suzie

You told her to do this Nightengale? And here I thought you were proposing longer chapters. Sheesh, I wonder what happens when I actually disagree with you.

WH said it best. It cheezes me off when someone ruins a perfectly good story by shoving it into a standardized 3,000 words or less mold. I read it before it had gone to the novella's section and haven't reread it since. I react too strongly to it.

However Nitengale, if it's your honest opinion that Suzie should keep her chapters down to 3,000 words each, then more power to you.

 

[nitengale]

Re: Re: How would you add more punch

Thanks so much for the honest evaluation of Suzie's tale. When I first posted this story the first 5 chapters were posted as two, then I was advised by several people to keep the chapters to around a magic 3000 words. Hence the shorter chapters when I reposted it and continued the story.

Suzie

You told her to do this Nightengale? And here I thought you were proposing longer chapters. Sheesh, I wonder what happens when I actually disagree with you.

WH said it best. It cheezes me off when someone ruins a perfectly good story by shoving it into a standardized 3,000 words or less mold. I read it before it had gone to the novella's section and haven't reread it since. I react too strongly to it.

However Nitengale, if it's your honest opinion that Suzie should keep her chapters down to 3,000 words each, then more power to you.

KM, go back and read the damn thread...those words were WH, NOT MINE!!!! Jesus, what is it with those that cannot read the entire thread! Get back to me when YOU actaully read what I wrote.

Again, I have no real experience writing. What do I have to do scream this from the rafters?? I come here to learn. I don't give a rats ass how many words are in anyone's stories but my own. MY comment was I thought some of the chapters might be combined. Good grief.

 

[nitengale]

Killermuffin

Spell my name right. That "cheezes" me off.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Why don't you go back and read the damned thread? I did it five times. I still don't see where we are having this magic disagreement. NO ONE ON THIS THREAD SAID THAT SUZIE NEEDS TO KEEP HER CHAPTERS DOWN TO A MAGIC NUMBER. SHE RECEIVED THIS IN EMAILS PRIOR TO THIS STORY BEING POSTED IN THE N/N SECTION. I REREAD THE THREAD AND I STILL CAN'T FIND A SINGLE PLACE WHERE YOU GAVE SUZIE A "MAGIC NUMBER" (I AM ASSUMING YOU KNOW WHAT A NUMBER IS) AS A GOOD YARDSTICK FOR CHAPTER LENGTH. I CAN'T FIND A PLACE WHERE YOU EVEN INDICATED A GOOD CHAPTER LENGTH, ONLY THAT YOU THOUGHT SEVERAL OF THEM COULD BE COMBINED. Now. How can my statements about people who think there is a magic number for chapter length be applied to you? Your logic defeats me. Are we even speaking the same language?

We never disagreed in the first place Chicky. You said a similar thing to what I said, only more politely.

How long you've been writing and your experience has jack to do with anything, so shut up. You're a good writer in your own standing. No more whiny excuses about why you can't run with the big dogs when you already are and are accepted as one of them.