$$$$$$$$$$$

[Mustang Sally]

You have made it all clear to me now. Having a roof over my head, having food to eat, haveign clothing on my back and being happy equals destitution and arogance thank you so much for enlightening me. Have a great Evening/night/morning.

You take offence too easily, bobtoad. The fact is, you ARE taking care of yourself, and at this stage in your life, that's all you need to do. Right?

I'm at that same stage, and like you, I'm just happy with my independence. But I'm going to want a good deal more than that soon, and I'm going to work very hard to get it.

That's all you can do.
Whatever makes you happy!

BUT when you get older, when you have a family and want a car and maybe a house to live in, you will want/need more money. It's a fact of life. It seems to me YOU'RE the one being judgemental here.

BTW, your estimate of the Canadian dollar is rather low. $9000 Canadian would translate to no less than $5,580 US most days. The translation shouldn't be made anyways, because our cost of living reflects the differences.

[Edited by Mustang Sally on 11-24-2000 at 08:56 PM]

 

[Cheyenne]

I'm not comfortable giving exact numbers but I would be in the $100,000 plus group also for base salary, some years quite a bit more and some not depending on performance bonuses.

Yes, I earn enough. I'm happy with what I earn as long as I don't start to compare myself to others in the company. I have a business degree as well as a CPA designation and experience in BIG 8 (now Big 5) public accounting. The degree, the CPA, and the public accounting experience have all been very important in getting me to where I am now. All three were basic requirements for me to get this job.

Our best employees have typically been the students that have had to work their way through college and life. They know how to work. They tend to have more common sense. And they have an ability to learn. To ask questions when they don't know something.

I have learned that degrees from prestigious universities and very good grades don't really matter all that much in the real world. Its having personal goals and the dedication to achieving those goals that matter most in a potential employee. Some of the employees we hire with the "so called" gold credentials turn out to be very poor employees. They have this opinion that they should start out at the top and do not have the dedication to work their way up the ladder, or the dedication to make sure the job they are assigned is done correctly. Whereas, the employee that may have had a 'C' average but worked their way through college have been some of the best employees I've ever seen. Their dedicated, are use to hard work and make sure their work is performed to our company's and their own personal standards. This IS the type of employee I prefer.

Amen! Except I'd add that I've found the very best employees of all are those who had to work their way through college AND still got very good grades!

The very first thing I check on a resume is whether the dates of earliest jobs overlap the years the person was in college (95% of people I hire are business degreed people.) As a generality, there is a marked difference between people who worked their way through school and those who had scholarships or parent funding. It is one of the primary reasons I think parents should never pay 100% for college for their children. Children need to work to pay for at least part of their own education for them to really appreciate it and benefit the most.

[Edited by Cheyenne on 11-24-2000 at 09:25 PM]

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

What do you earn per annum?

I'd be willing to bet that I'm among those with the lowest income to education ratio on this BB, if not the undisputed champ. I'm working 50 hour weeks plus 20+ hours of study time and getting paid... $-20,000 a year. (Yes, that is in fact a negative sign. I'm living exclusively on loans.) I could get a part-time job, but I'd only be able to put a small dent in the debt. My grades would seriously suffer, I'd never see my family, and I'd be miserable as well. I'll take the debt.

Are you happy with that number?

Whenever anyone accuses about physicians being primarily interested in money I can't help but roll my eyes. By the time I finish med school, I'll owe about $80,000 (plus interest). Then I'll go to work for about $30,000 a year for 3-6 years while working 100+ hour weeks including 36 consecutive hour stretches every fourth day.

Someone did the math to calculate a resident's salary by the hour and it comes out to less than the minimum hourly wage. Plus you have the stress that comes with the responsibility for the health and lives of other human beings.

Of course doctors can make very good money once they've finished residency, but there are far easier ways to 200 grand a year.

For me, it's all worth it, though, because I want to do what I love. The money is an excellent side benefit I'll enjoy later (much later).

What is your level of education?

B.A. and working on an M.D.

Do you think your level of education has an effect on your income?

Absolutely it does. An M.D. is obviously the sine qua non for practicing medicine and residency is equally essential for almost all medical specialties. For business, it's obviously much less important.

That being said, I regard my liberal arts education in college as being one of my most cherished assets as a person. Education today is often confused with vocational training, whose object is purely to provide an individual with a limited number of skills useful in a particular craft. It's essentially "on the job training" before one gets on the job.

The purpose of education is much more global: rather than train an individual or provide him with job skills, it teaches him to think independently, communicate effectively, and better appreciate and understand his world. In essence, it makes him a better person. I like to think this is what my college education has done for me.

Of course, an educated person makes a better employee, so a college education has become a requirement for a huge number of jobs. With so many people graduating college and beyond, a diploma's now a virtual necessity in the competitive job market. This is what feeds the notion of "college as job training", however.

I have a history degree that will never once help me diagnose a disease or treat it, and yet I regard that degree to be much more important than my medical education in forming the person I am today.

And that, more than money, is what is important to me.

 

[Purple Haze]

This is not aimed at anyone in particular,

Why is it that the people with the most money are the ones that claim the system is working against them?

 

[Closet Desire]

What a great thread!

Hi Red,

This is one of the few threads that I read from beginning to end. I feel (for once) like there isn't much to say. I think you got some really straight dope from a wide range of people.

Oh...hats off to Oliver. I happen to believe that doctors deserve what they earn because so few people ever see that for the first decade they work two decades, contribute thankless services, and then still have to pay off thousands in loans. It's a real test of perseverence.

Here's my answer to the query.

I can't say how much I earn because CD-able and I work together in our business, but it is in excess of $100,000 US. We also have additional income from investments, royalties from books, and pensions (yes, technically I've already retired once). I will say that when I joined the Navy with a wife in tow I was earning $576 a month and that when I showed up at my first duty station with a car and a U-Haul I had $14 in my pocket.

Am I happy with it? Yes and no. Yes because I'm finally living a lifestyle that I always wanted and no because ever since showing up at that first duty station with $14 I swore I would always want more.

Did education help? Yes and no. Some occupations require a university education so that answers itself. I think completing an education, especially if you earned good marks, demonstrates a willingness to work hard and see something through to the end. I find that with employers it seldom matters where the degree was earned. Like many on here noted, an education isn't a recipe for success and, for me, it was more about building my self-esteem and self-confidence than preparing me for work. Many of the biggest success stories have modest educations and managed it with perseverence and self-education in the things that were important. Lots of keys to success are not taught in school. My own education in liberal arts has little to do with my work as a business director. I'm afraid I learned that by failing in two prior businesses.

Looking back from being forty I would say that settling in for some long-term success is the key (I failed that course and started fifteen years too late). Take the risk to succeed, bank or invest at least 10% of everything you make BEFORE you pay the bills (lots of ways to do this through mutuals or fractional share plans), and set goals for yourself which you review every six months or so. Don't believe anybody who comes up to you and promises to make you rich if you give them some money to invest.

The people I know who I consider successful and who consider themselves successful set goals for themselves and set about single-mindedly achieving them whether that was for a simple modest lifestyle with lots of freedom or a lavish lifestyle with loads of money and fame. I don't begrudge anybody's brand of personal success. I respect those who have achieved what they wanted.

Maybe I've learned more watching my children achieve their personal goals. My eldest son currently finds success in judo. He measures achievement by winning at a game and earning no money whatever. Next spring he moves to Cardiff to train with the national squad. They pay for him to live in a dorm room and he works out for hours each day. He considers himself a success if he gets to compete in major international tournaments and attend training camps on southern France where the young women walk about topless. Ten years from now his goals may be different, but he will look back with pleasure rather than regret I'll bet.

Best of luck Red (you know me!)

Closed Desire

 

[Thor's Hammer]

Interesting question

Earnings - well over 100K/annum

Happy with it - yes, in fact, I am about to make a change for less $$$ to do something I really want to do.

Education - graduate school. I took graduate courses for my own enjoyment, not career advancement.

Is education important? - You bet...it is not to say that you cannot "do" most things, but without the degree(s), the doors are much harder to open.

 

[Mortto56]

Finally a Tread!

This year I'll be looking at about $58K to $60K by the end of the year.Thats on a 40 hour week.I work on a swing shift at my plant,4-10 hour work days.And I diffenetly love my 3 day weekends!

Am I happy with what I make?
Yes I am!
Now with my boys grown up and gone,I can actually put a little money away each week now.
For you people out there with kids still at home,you'll SHIT your pants when you find out how much money you'll start saving.

What kind of education do I have?
Not a whole-hell-of-a-lot!
I made it threw the 12th grade,but I sure as hell don't know how.
I guess to say is,that I was in a class of kids that they just passed along,to get them out of school.
But I did have 2 years of vocational school,while I was in high school.It added 6 credits towards my graduation.

Do I think my education has helped?
Yes in someways!
I have more hands-on experience about things,than I have book experience.I have always been able to learn more by doing,and watching.
There isn't no way I can write like some of these people above me have.They are very well thought out,and written post.

But I do know one thing,that I am better now at spelling and writing,than I was just 6 months ago.Because now I have access to the internet.I enjoy learning new things,and this helps me by keeping me interested.Because it doesn't matter who you are,if you lose interest,it is really fucking hard to learn.

"Oh Lasher!"...."Man I really enjoyed them PBR pounders!"
"Shit!"..."My buddy Jim and I would pound down 8 or so,before we got out of the fuckin'parking lot." ..."Got to love them!"

 

[Skibum]

I make something less than $20,000 per year. I am not particularly happy with that number, but I really like the work I do. It is better work than I had ten years ago when I was making over $30,000. At least I can sleep now.

I have an MA degree, but it does not relate to my work. Some of my co-workers (most of them) have no education beyond high school.

My life has not been all that happy until recently, but it has nothing to do with how much or how little I make. I have learned that happiness is not driven by income. It is driven my love, and I have recently found mine.

 

[SeXy ReDHeD]

Thank you for your honesty!!

I can't possibly answer all of you, but I would like to hit on a few points:

I was going to post a few of the first posts to make this point, but just this one will do:

Originally posted by Lasher

[T]hat's great that bobtoad is happy living like a 17 year old. Like he showed us above, he has no commitments, and few needs, and no responsiblity other than to himself.

But I do think that maybe he should live just ONE LITTLE FUCKING BIT before he goes judging anyone else.

Can I get an Amen?

Originally posted by Cheyenne

I've found the very best employees of all are those who had to work their way through college AND still got very good grades! Children need to work to pay for at least part of their own education for them to really appreciate it and benefit the most.

For my own part, I will admit that I am one of the ones that doesn't really have to work too hard to get good grades. I can skip classes here and there and miss a few homework assignments in between, but I can always kick ass on the test and come out on top. I did this throughout high school and realized later that I hadn't learned anything. I could recall facts and figures or whatever, but I wasn't getting the "core" of the class (even though my grades said otherwise). The only reason I finally changed my ways was the fact that I wasn't going to be able to graduate on time. My bad study habits had caught up with me and when I got to the higher courses, where attendance was mandatory, I failed miserably. Only through this experience could I have ever learned the values of hard work and perseverence. Now, I have a full scholarship (tuition, books, stipend), along with loans and a part-time job to get me through. I live on my own and pay for pretty much everything I have. Everyone told me that I was stupid for moving out, and that it would have been easier to stay at home, but for the reasons you listed, I moved out anyway. It definitely would have been easier, but what would I have learned... it would have been taking the easy way out when I had the both the will and the way to do it right. Many of my friends have tons more money than I do living at home, and tell me all the time that they are better off. "Just wait," I say, "just wait."

Originally posted by Oliver Clozoff

For me, it's all worth it, though, because I want to do what I love. The money is an excellent side benefit I'll enjoy later (much later).

I have a history degree that will never once help me diagnose a disease or treat it, and yet I regard that degree to be much more important than my medical education in forming the person I am today.

And that, more than money, is what is important to me.

Thanks Ollie!! This, I guess, is what I was wondering about for the most part.... maybe I just should've asked then, huh? Anyway, this dilemma, money vs. one's own happiness, is what has been troubling me lately.

And finally...

Originally posted by Closet Desire

The people I know who I consider successful and who consider themselves successful set goals for themselves and set about single-mindedly achieving them whether that was for a simple modest lifestyle with lots of freedom or a lavish lifestyle with loads of money and fame. I don't begrudge anybody's brand of personal success. I respect those who have achieved what they wanted.

Best of luck Red (you know me!)

Closed Desire

And this right here would appear to be a solution of sorts... set your own goals, don't follow someone else's. Thank you, CD... you have told me this before... guess I shoulda just listened the first time

Anyway, just wanted to let ya'll know where I stand here... both in opinion and in reality...

Thanks again for answering, and don't let my long-ass-post here stop you from keeping the conversation going!

***Sorry! I wasn't finished (meant to press the preview button) and so had to edit!***



[Edited by SeXy ReDHeD on 11-25-2000 at 09:19 AM]

 

[Bobtoad777]

So, like I said, that's great that bobtoad is happy living like a 17 year old. Like he showed us above, he has no commitments, and few needs, and no responsiblity other than to himself.

Cou;ld you clarify something for me then please, thank you. Does this mean if I don't pay my bills and being homeless and starving on the street isn't a responsibility?

 

[SeXy ReDHeD]

So, like I said, that's great that bobtoad is happy living like a 17 year old. Like he showed us above, he has no commitments, and few needs, and no responsiblity other than to himself.

Cou;ld you clarify something for me then please, thank you. Does this mean if I don't pay my bills and being homeless and starving on the street isn't a responsibility?

Bobtoad, if you read Lasher's post, you'll notice that he said you have no other responsibility except to yourself. Paying your bills so that you don't end up homeless is a responsibility that you have to yourself. You don't have a family to support or a pet to feed. You don't have any tuition to pay or a girlfriend to buy things for. You don't have a single care in the world except for yourself. If you take into account the fact that those making all that money have all those worries and countless more (like retirement or caring for aging parents or college funds), suddenly 40K, 50K, and even 100K just doesn't cut it. Basically Bobtoad, don't judge other people until you can accurately take into account their situation. Now YOU have a nice day.

 

[Cheyenne]

Cou;ld you clarify something for me then please, thank you. Does this mean if I don't pay my bills and being homeless and starving on the street isn't a responsibility?

Bobtoad, Lasher said no responsibility other than to yourself. Not no responsibility, period.

There isn't anything wrong with you being happy with earning only enough to take care of yourself. I think what people are trying to tell you is that you are unusual, not "normal" in this society. Very few people are happy with so little. But it isn't a bad thing if you are. Just understand that your view will likely change in the future if you add a girlfriend, or wife and child to the equation. Then it is no longer just YOU that matters. Most of the people on this board seem to fall into the category of having family to worry about in addition to their own hide.

 

[Thumper]

Hard work pays....Bullshit!

I work two jobs and sleep around 7 hours total between Mon and Fri...and my wife works full time...

Our combined income is slightly less than 50K per year. We live paycheck to paycheck and have exactly zero saved for retirement. Raising three kids (all teenagers now) precludes any investing. I have been driving professionally for just over ten years and my income has risen about 15% over that time frame while the top CEOS (Carl Lindner for one) and executives have seen their incomes increase by around 535% over the same time frame. Productivity and profits have consistently and markedly gone up yet the rank and file gets the same 2 or 3 percent increase every year. Executives routinely get bonuses that approach their annual salary. Why not share a little of the prosperity with the people who made all the productivity gains possible. Without us, all the genius business decisions made and killer sales nailed would be just toilet paper. Execs and salesmen may sell the widgets, but if we don't make em, they look foolish.
And don't tell me that decreasing my tax burden is the answer. I actually pay very little in taxes and would gladly pay more if it meant more take home. If I made a million a year would I complain about paying 300,000? Hell no! I could live great on the remaining 700,000 and be a generous gregarious idiot to all who knew me. If my income had increased at the same rate as the execs had, I would be earning around 100,000K now. Imagine the boon to the economy that would bring. Instead of renting I would be owning and BUYING things for the house. I would own newer cars and take a vacation once in a while. I would eat out more often and see a movie at a theater more often. I would be paying for my children's education so they can earn more money in the future. In short I would be pumping dollars into the economy that right now are sitting in someones portfolio. Consequently the wealthy would... Big surprise..get wealthier and maybe pay less taxes too because I would be paying more. I do not favor the government taking from the rich and giving to the poor but does anyone really believe that the wealthy would take the tax savings and give to charity? Some would most wouldn't.
Right now Carl baby gets a Million dollar bonus a year and what do you think he does with it. Spend it? On what? He no doubt has everything he wants and needs. A man only needs one washer and dryer or one or two cars. Now imagine he decides to forgo the bonus and gives a $1,000 each to his top 1,000 store managers (UDF stores) where would that money go? Directly into the local economy. Some may pay off a bill some would get the aforementioned washer or dryer and not have to drag their laundry out and pay inflated rates for a laundromat.
I have also heard the argument that the wealthy are responsible for new jobs and business with their investing. This is partially true but I think for the most part most investing is done by trading stocks already out there. It does not increase P&G's wealth when one investor buys it's stock from another. Just a lateral trade that only affects the buyer and seller.

And that's the bottm line...

Am I happy with where I am financially....I have to be, there isn't much I can do about it and I have more fun in life not worrying about it. My biggest worry is the world ending while I still have some money left. Sorta like having coupons left over when DisneyWorld closes for the night.




[Edited by Thumper on 11-25-2000 at 11:53 AM]

 

[Comshaw]

Bob Toad said:

"You all make me laugh so hard, 40k and its not enough 90k and its not enough 100k and its not enough. yet I am happy with less than 5k of your value of money, much much more than happy.
What is wrong with that picture?"

Sounds like a bit of elitist thinking crept into your statement there Bobby! Way too many people think that way, only I have the answer. Only I am right. I really hope that wasn't what I heard in your post, was it?
You did miss my point by the way. I said it wasn't enough, I didn't say I was unhappy with it. Read the last line of my earlier post.
Through my working career I could have emulated some of my friends and worked 80, 90 or 100 hours a week to make 70 to 90k. I choose not too. I choose to invest those hours in my family, friends and community rather then in the pursuit of the all might dollar. Many times I did work 90 to 100 hours a week, but not for pay.
In the early months of 1970 I made $118.00 a month. At the time it was plenty for me. I had enough to buy the neccities of life with a little left over for a beer or two. At that time I had only me to worry about. Now? A wife, two kids, a father, one father-in-law, one mother-in-law and two sisters to help and support when nessiccary. Can't do that on $5000.00 a year. It's spelled family responsibly.
Am I happy with my life and my income, yes. Do I wish I had more money, yes. Those two points are not mutually exclusive, at least not for me.

Lasher said:

"I always hate cute little simplistic shit like this.
Here's where he fucked up. According to his rules only 4 of his 100 people could possibly be from the United States (250 million out of 6 billion... actually 4.1%,but close enough), yet he says 6 people from the United States have 59% of the wealth.
So how the fuck do 4 people become 6 people? How much of the 59% do the -2 people have?
Does this qualify as "fuzzy math"?"

Lasher, very good point, that's the advantage of a discussion like this, lots of eyes and brains to pick out things that aren't quite right.
But when you say "he" I hope your talking about the person who originally researched and formulated that particular set of figures and not me personally? If you will reread my post I stated it had been posted on another sight. I just dropped it here for your consideration. My only mistake, if it was one, was trying to share it.
I agree that fuzzy math is wrong, but so is strawman logic.
By the way because something is simplistic does not mean it is erroneous, if they are formulated correctly and presented with no built in bias. Sometimes the simple things are the best. Sometimes.
I think I'm beginning to understand where your handle came from by the by.

 

[Thumper]

I think it could work...

He only stated that 59% of the wealth is concentrated among 6% of the world population. The fact that we only make up 4% of the population just further illustrates the imbalance that exists here.

 

[Cheyenne]

I have been driving professionally for just over ten years and my income has risen about 15% over that time frame .....

I do not favor the government taking from the rich and giving to the poor but does anyone really believe that the wealthy would take the tax savings and give to charity? Some would most wouldn't.

Thumper- have you been with the same company for 10 years? The job market for drivers who have CDLs, decent driving records, and can pass the drug screen, is great at the moment. We have a heck of a time getting and keeping good drivers. Try checking out the job market, if you haven't already. You may be able to work less and earn more.

As for giving to charity, I think you'd be surprised how much people give. Many people tithe, and that directly increases charitable giving if they are given a tax cut. I also increase my charity when my income is higher, from any source, not just tax breaks. This is the weekend of the year when I tradtionally review my charitable giving for the year to date, and write checks for any of my favorite groups that I may have missed. Part of that process is taking time to reflect on the past year and all the blessings I've been given.

I believe that giving back to the community is a moral obligation to anyone who can afford to do so. And yes, I think I believe and act the way I do because of my Christian upbringing. It is second nature to me to assume that we are obligated to help the poor, the sick, the lonely. Everything I have, I have by God's grace alone. If I have more, I should give more. Including any money I save in taxes.

 

[Thumper]

Not the same company..

Not the same company..just driving for ten years.

I can pass a drud screen and I can drive a semi in reverse better than most can drive a car forwards. I am about at the top of the pay scale for drivers who get home everyday. (I refuse to go over the road) I could get more money going on the road but not much more. I refuse to live like that. I doubt many OTR drivers are making in excess of 60'000 a year and to do that they have to stay out weeks at a time and drive a thousand miles a day...that requires amphetamines and no family life...not worth it in my book. I haul mail for the post office and my wages are dictated by the Davis Bacon act and are on the high end of the scale. I have looked at the ads for drivers and most companies want you to start off at around $9 to $10 dollars an hour. That's with experience. What's more ICC regulations allow companies who employ drivers to pay them straight time no matter how many hours they work. If a clerk works over 40 hours he/she gets time and a half...not us...so much for safety. Guess who influenced that legislation..shippers and carriers...big business. So I don't lose any sleep when more government regs come down on the companies in re safety and compliance.

I did not mean to say no one gives to charity. I always hear those arguing against welfare stating that that belongs in the private sector and should be handled by the charitable organizations. We have these organizations in place and they are unable to meet the needs now...what will happen if they are further burdened when the social programs are eliminated.

Maybe a little less of a bonus for the paper pushers and some more for the peons would make things better for all...even the wealthy. If I have money to spend I will spend it..and buy they stuff they are trying to sell.

Our economy is a pyramid...if the base gets too weak and the top gets too heavy it will collapse...and the extremely wealthy will fall the farthest

 

[Guest]