$150 Per Barrel Petroleum??

trysail

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Oil May Rise to $150 a Barrel, Ex-Shell Chairman Says (Update1)
By Eduard Gismatullin and Francine Lacqua

Sept. 18, 2007 (Bloomberg) -- Crude oil prices may rise to $150 a barrel in the next 20 years because demand is growing in China and some other developing nations and reserves are dwindling, said the former chairman of the U.K. branch of Royal Dutch Shell Plc.

The world is running out of ``cheap oil,'' Ronald Oxburgh, the former chairman at Shell Transport & Trading Plc, said in an interview late yesterday from Ireland. ``The world is never going to run out of oil. The price is likely to rise so high, that we simply cannot afford to use it as a cheap fuel.''

Global oil demand is expected to rise about 1.3 percentage points a year from 2004, reaching 5.6 billion tons of oil equivalent in 2030, according to an International Energy Agency forecast from last year.

Crude oil for October settlement traded at $81.38 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange at 12:38 p.m. local time.

In 20 years ``we will have energy consumption patterns changed completely,'' Gundi Royle, a consultant at The National Investor, said in an interview in London. ``The supply constraint at the moment is oil. There is no such thing as supply constraint and reserve constraint for gas,'' which can partly substitute for crude oil along with other fuels.

__________________________________________________________________________

Twilight in the Desert

Twilight in the Desert by Matthew Simmons seriously questions the capability of Saudi Arabia to increase or even maintain production given the mature state of the 7 major fields that produce 95% of their oil. It is sobering. Some of these points will be familiar to those who have reviewed Simmons’ presentations on his company website.
http://www.simmonsco-intl.com/...

The focus of the book is a series of SPE (Society of Petroleum Engineers) papers that have been written by consultants, employees of service companies and ARAMCo employees. Points include -

90% of Saudi oil comes from six large fields that were discovered in the 1940s-1960s during the heyday of exploration in the Middle East (onshore carbonates Ghawar, Berri, Abqaiq; offshore clastics Zuluf, Marjan and Safaniya). Onshore carbonates have poor aquifer support; edge-water drive has been implemented for decades to maintain pressure. Offshore clastics have good aquifer support.

One field (Ghawar) produces ~50% of Saudi Arabia’s oil, and has produced ~60% of the oil that Saudi Arabia has ever produced. The field is divided into sectors – Ain Dar and Shedgum in the north, Uthmaniyah in the center and Haradh in the south. Some sectors have been in constant production since 1951. Generally reservoir properties deteriorate towards the south, consequently the southern portion of Ghawar is less developed. Ghawar produces from the Jurassic Arab-D Formation – superior reservoir qualities are attributed to thin super-K (very high permeability) layers believed to be locally dolomitized carbonate. While the super-K layers have enhanced production for decades, they have typically proved a hindrance when water breakthrough from Ghawar’s extensive edge-water drive occurs at producing wells.

Record Saudi production occurred in 1981 at 10.5 million bbl/d, in the immediate aftermath of the Iranian revolution when 4+ million bbl/d of Iranian crude were taken off the market. According to the most recent IEA oil market report, they produced 9.55 million bbl/d in May of this year. The source of this information after 1982? HARBOR SPIES reporting to a small Swiss-based agency called Petrologistics who watch tanker liftings at Jubayl and Ras Tanura on the Gulf and Yanbu on the Red Sea!

The newest producing field is Shaybah, in the Empty Quarter of Saudi Arabia south of the UAE. Shaybah was discovered in 1968 and has a large primary gas cap. It is produced by a number of exotic multilateral horizontal completions (each with a herringbone configuration) termed 'maximum reservoir contact' wells. Shaybah came onstream in 1998 and it produces from the same Cretaceous carbonate Shu’aiba Formation as Oman’s Yibal Field.

All major fields have been producing almost flat-out for decades, with the exception of the 1980s when Saudi ARAMCO pulled back on production. This respite in production likely extended ‘peak production’ of Saudi oil for a decade.

The fields that ARAMCO is relying on to increase production (at least publicly) - Khurais, Qatif, Abu Safah and Khursaniyah - have all produced in the past with very disappointing results believed related to poor reservoir properties. Qatif is very close to the major refining complex at Ras Tanurah and was once used as a naphtha storage reservoir - an odd use for a field with such high stated potential. Saudi Arabia is relying on these fields, which have never produced more than ~400,000 bbl/d combined, to add more than 1.5 million bbl/d of spare capacity. Currently, developed ‘spare capacity’ is limited to heavy sour production from the offshore Safaniya Field which currently produces less than half of what it did during its peak in the 1970s (at that time, 1.6 million bbl/d).

Implementation of oilfield technology - most notably multilaterals and ‘intelligent’ completions - have resulted in limited incremental gains but tend to accelerate production declines. Yibal in Oman (operated by Shell through its Petroleum Development Oman joint venture) is cited as a primary example of a redeveloped field that failed to meet expectations and shortly faced dramatic water production problems as a result of indiscriminate application of horizontal drilling. ARAMCo’s development drilling has exclusively been horizontal/multilateral for the last decade.

ARAMCo has a hard enough time history matching their dynamic reservoir simulations, let alone generating reliable forecasts.

Secondary and tertiary recovery techniques may extend the productive life of a field, but rarely (if ever) restore peak production achieved during the primary phase of production. Large fields elsewhere in the world are presented in case studies illustrating that all fields are subject to natural decline. Iran, just across the Persian/Arabian Gulf from Saudi Arabia, has never reattained peak 1970s production of ~6 million bbl/d. Iran currently produces ~3.9 million bbl/d, half of which comes from four aging carbonate fields – Gach Saran, Marun, Agha Jari and Ahvaz. Expertly managed fields like Prudhoe Bay (Alaska North Slope), Oseberg and Gullfaks (Norwegian North Sea), and Brent (UK North Sea) – all of which produced ~0.5 million bbl/d or more in the case of Prudhoe during their peak years – have also not avoided substantial decline. Overproduced fields, such as Samotlor in Siberia, decline even more rapidly. Samotlor produced 3 million bbl/d during its peak in the early 1980s, which declined to 300,000 bbl/d by 2000; BP is currently redeveloping it in partnership with TNK.

Saudi ARAMCo, despite substantial effort that includes a state-of-the-art seismic data processing center, has not located a new oil field in Saudi Arabia since 1968. The most significant new find, the Hawtah trend south of Riyadh, was brought onstream in 1990 but has not met expectations in terms of sustained production. Exploration for gas has also met with limited success. The Saudi Gas initiative, an ambitious scheme devised to lure foreign investors into the country to develop gas fields as well as build processing/distribution networks and energy-intensive desalination plants, fell apart. The stated reason was that the terms were insufficient to meet the companies’ (XOM, CVX, MRO, COP, RD) economic screening criteria. However, the potential reservoirs were also described as ‘crummy’ by one executive.

And the big point. Reserves. At the end of the 1970s, when control of ARAMCo was passed to the Saudis, partners Exxon (30%), Chevron (30%), Texaco (30%) and Mobil (10%) reported reserves of 110 billion barrels, this after a REDUCTION of reserves in the mid-1970s believed related to increasing watercut in portions of major fields. Immediately in 1979 reserves were boosted 50 billion bbl by the Saudis. Then in 1988, reserves were boosted an additional 100 billion bbl to 260 billion bbl. Stated reserves have remained static since then, while Saudi ARAMCo has produced a cumulative 45+ billion barrels!

Saudi ARAMCo officials have repeatedly assured the world that they are capable of producing 12, 15, even 20 million bbl/d from their inventory of producing and non-producing assets. Credulous analysts rarely question these projections, which often run decades into the future. ARAMCo steadfastly rejects third-party reserves audits, and dismisses SPE literature as focusing on a limited set ‘problematic’ issues to pursue ‘academic’ research. Saudi officials can also maintain that the decline curves are less steep because they are not motivated by a desire to maximize Net-Present-Value at the expense of Ultimate Recovery - as publicly-traded companies are. Yet ARAMCo has repeatedly stepped into the breach by steeply ramping up production dramatically during times of need – such as the two oil crises and the more recent Iraqi conflicts – likely at the expense of reservoir pressure and ultimate recovery.

I recommend the book, it provides an awful lot of information about a subject that is poorly understood. The book is a bit repetitive at times, I suspect it was rushed into print because oil is such a hot-button topic these days. It’s sobering and a real wakeup call. The book does not advocate a doomsday scenario, rather emphasizing the need for data transparency (ARAMCo, like many OPEC countries motivated by jockeying for production quota, has not released production data since 1982 on a field-by-field basis) and preparedness (through conservation and renewed investigation of alternative sources) for a world in which oil prices top $100/bbl.
 
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When whale oil was 95 cents a gallon John D. Rockefeller created Standard Oil Company and sold kerosene for 5 cents a gallon. Rockefeller effectively killed the American whaling industry.

If gasoline doubles in cost a new Rockefeller will kill the oil industry.
 
JAMESBJOHNSON said:
When whale oil was 95 cents a gallon John D. Rockefeller created Standard Oil Company and sold kerosene for 5 cents a gallon. Rockefeller effectively killed the American whaling industry.

If gasoline doubles in cost a new Rockefeller will kill the oil industry.
I hope to god you're right. Given half a chance, that is exactly and precisely the result that one would expect free market economics (if allowed to operate) to produce.

Nonetheless, I'd be lying if I didn't confess that I worry about how civilization and its constituent societies will respond to "peak oil" and the global application of Hubbert's Curve.

There's an awful lot of global political, social, and physical infrastructure in place that's predicated on abundant energy. "Lead times" in energy are measured in decades.



 
OR... when Gasoline went to $1.50 a gallon, some douche went out and tried to get people to buy electric cars... and went belly-up on all the projects losing untold millions.

Sometimes?

Sometimes, I think, you've gotta actually have a product... not just the marketing.
 
Trysail, et al...

Logically one would think in the increase in oil prices, and the inevitable increase in the cost of most everything would disturb equally all who would suffer, even the left wing.

Not so. This is good news for the anti industrial left, the higher the prices the more difficult it is to continue manufacturing and growth, exactly what they dream of.

If one could but abolish all the restrictions against energy companies you would find a quick solution to the next level of energy production beyond petroleum and the modern industrial societies we enjoy would continue to grow and expand.

If we could open for exploration the entire interior of the nation and the offshore deposits and remove the restrictions from drilling, mining, refining and transporting energy and basically tell the energy industry, find a way to the next plateau, they would indeed, in fairly short order.

But the mindset of the left wing anti industrialists is such that it would take a revolution to move them out of power.

Even should disaster occur and thousands or tens of thousands of lives be needlessly lost in a natural disaster or a harsh winter, the left would just say we deserve what we get for abusing the earth and polluting the environment.

While I generally have great faith in the integrity of the voting public, I think it would take a disaster taking millions of lives, directly attributable to left wing political restrictions on energy, as in California, before the public would vote them out of office and clamor for change. Even then, the change would be hard fought by the entrenched left.

Good luck.

Amicus...
 
That's only going to drive up the Canadian dollar more and the American dollar further down.
 
JAMESBJOHNSON said:
When whale oil was 95 cents a gallon John D. Rockefeller created Standard Oil Company and sold kerosene for 5 cents a gallon. Rockefeller effectively killed the American whaling industry.

If gasoline doubles in cost a new Rockefeller will kill the oil industry.

I feel sorry for the whales when that happens
 
We need a car which uses fool oil. There's an endless supply of cheap fools.
 
This $150 a barrel thing ought to surprise no one, by now. Of course it will. The proper response is probably to capture control of Iraq. They will still have reserves when every other oil source is largely tapped out. Controlling Iraq will mean you can dictate the terms of the world's economy for at least a decade, if not a generation. Money and power, right there.
 
JAMESBJOHNSON said:
When whale oil was 95 cents a gallon John D. Rockefeller created Standard Oil Company and sold kerosene for 5 cents a gallon. Rockefeller effectively killed the American whaling industry.

If gasoline doubles in cost a new Rockefeller will kill the oil industry.

James has got it right and Amicus shows himself up as a commentator.

If a product - here oil - goes beyond the price level that people can afford it, then a lot of money is put into research to find an alternative. That explains biofuels and why the SO's beer is going up in price and I pay more for my Kellogg's.

The endgame for carbon fuels is here - fifty years later than experts predicted.

There will be an orderly transition, with aviation being the last industry to migrate.

This has nothing to do with climate change, just a reflection on global resources. We have had a century of petroleum and now we have to find a new energy source.

Anyone for masticated egg-plant?
 


At the risk of life and limb (mine, of course), I have to suggest that we in the U.S. ought to be building nuclear generating facilities right now. We've been dawdling because of populist and media-inflated fear.

For the last quarter century, France has been getting 80% of its electricity from nukes. The electricity they generate is cheap, safe, and reliable. The Japanese have also been the beneficiaries of lots of nuclear generation.


 
[QUOTE]
elfin_odalisque said:
James has got it right and Amicus shows himself up as a commentator.

If a product - here oil - goes beyond the price level that people can afford it, then a lot of money is put into research to find an alternative. That explains biofuels and why the SO's beer is going up in price and I pay more for my Kellogg's.

The endgame for carbon fuels is here - fifty years later than experts predicted.

There will be an orderly transition, with aviation being the last industry to migrate.

This has nothing to do with climate change, just a reflection on global resources. We have had a century of petroleum and now we have to find a new energy source.

Anyone for masticated egg-plant?
[/QUOTE]

~~~

Although you didn't mean it in a good way, yes I was a commentator for many years albeit now, just an armchair one.


If a product - here oil - goes beyond the price level that people can afford it, then a lot of money is put into research to find an alternative. That explains biofuels and why the SO's beer is going up in price and I pay more for my Kellogg's.

Elfin, if you will look more closely into biofuels, read some of the critics instead of following the agreeable herd, you will learn that the subsidies and allocations from government by many means have skewered and disturbed the market place for grains that were previously used as food and export commodities.

Further, the financial wizards, like Handprints and such, will make a huge profit on a risk basis, knowing full well the phenomenon is transitory, and rising food prices, globally will have much farther reaching effects that your Kellogg's or your SO's beer.

It is a complex subject with so many variations, most of which have been discussed on this forum. Those hopeful that alternative energy sources such as wind and solar farms will alleviate the shortage have already been disappointed to realize the magnitude of the shortages.

If you will research carefully you will discover that the global resources of oil and natural gas deposits is not nearly exhausted and that hundreds of years of fuel is available if the energy companies were but set free to exploit it.

If governments and political considerations continue to guide the future in terms of energy production, I suggest that no one can predict the future. Were market forces unleashed without restriction, even then, the precise path to future energy independence is not wholly clear as we cannot foresee what new discoveries may be made at any moment.

Such as it is....

amicus...
 
Amicus-

One of the most important books that was published in 2005 (and not read!) was Matt Simmons' Twilight In The Desert: The Coming Saudi Oil Shock and The World Economy.

I wrote my senior thesis on the energy business in 1974 as a rebuttal of The Limits Of Growth and it formed the basis of my career. I've been keenly interested and professionally involved in the energy field ever since. The facts are a bit alarming. Each and every day, the world consumes roughly 86 million barrels of petroleum (or ~31 billion barrels a year). The world hasn't found any large oilfields (with the sole exception of the Kashagan field) since ~1980. The grand-daddy of 'em all, Ghawar, in Saudi Arabia produces about 5 million of those 86 million daily barrels. It is, by far, the largest field ever found on the planet. It was discovered in 1950.

Simmons makes a fairly compelling case that Ghawar is either near or has passed its peak. These things don't last forever. Prudhoe Bay was discovered in 1967 and its peak production of 2 million barrels a day occurred in 1990. Prudhoe Bay is now down to about 900,000 barrels a day. I'm not overfond of Matt, but like him or not, he was trained as a petroleum engineer and he is reputable. The book is tough slogging for the layman but, with some effort, is not totally inaccessable. A not inconsiderable number of informed readers (many of whom I know) take this work very seriously.

There is no easy substitute for petroleum and we've now got two billion Chinese and Indians all wanting automobiles. I don't think the Chinese are interested in going back to riding bicycles.

I admit it; this one's got me a little bit apprehensive.


 
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Thank you Trysail..
.

"...There is no easy substitute for petroleum and we've now got two billion Chinese and Indians all wanting automobiles. I don't think the Chinese are interested in going back to riding bicycles.

I admit it; this one's got me a little bit apprehensive...."

Apprehension is indeed called for, I think.

I am not comfortable being pessimistic about anything, being an optimist at heart, but the evidence is accumulating that, to me, suggests some very difficult times ahead for all of us.

Aside from the factual and objective perusal of the petroleum industry, upon which I am perhaps a bit irrationally optimistic that we, the US, still has a shrinking window of opportunity to buffer the decline of crude oil by maximum effort at all levels to increase the supply by exploiting available resources within our control, it still remains a long term and puzzling dilemma to see ahead.

I presented a post not long ago that, as most of my posts end up being, was not well received, concerning an element found on the Moon, that might provide a long term answer to basic energy problems, but of course that does not deal with gasoline for automobiles or heating oil, rather with the production of electricity on a massive, clean and relatively competitive cost analysis, perhaps you recall.

I am convinced beyond any doubt that a solution is available, even a timely one, considering the predictable future of Petroleum, but I am not convinced it will be acted upon until a true emergency situation confronts us.

All the left wing windbags that promote conservation and restrictions upon power usage, notwithstanding, the, 'solution', I referred to above accommodates a continued growth and expansion of energy consumption to power an increasingly modern and energy dependent modern society, not some backstepping plan into a pastoral past....If I made that clear enough for comprehension...

Appreciate your comments and your expertise on the subject...thank you.

Amicus...
 
amicus said:
If you will research carefully you will discover that the global resources of oil and natural gas deposits is not nearly exhausted and that hundreds of years of fuel is available if the energy companies were but set free to exploit it.

Amicus - I see your point, but you're misunderstanding the economic impact of the regulations on the market for oil and the economic effect that removing them would have.

Basic, A-Level Economics: Supply and Demand for a certain product in a market determine its price. If supply goes up with demand staying constant, then demand will fall. Vice versa is true.

Applying an artificial restriction to the supply of oil (such as preventing drilling in certain areas) means that supply goes down (through a right-shift of the supply line, for those of you following on your graphs at home) and price therefore goes up. As price goes up, demand will fall. Where oil use is not economic at the new price, it will be discontinued.

The supply will continue to go down as the oil reserves fall. We know that there is an artificial limit on supply, but it doesn't matter right now, as the price is still regulating the market. It goes up as supply goes down it and it will keep rising until demand has fallen to the new level of supply.

Now, imagine that the government removes the restrictions on supply. The price goes down, as there is a sudden boom to the industry. However, the problem is not solved, only diverted. The oil price is still going to rise as supply runs dry again and you will end up in exactly the same situation ten or twenty or a hundred years down the line.

Now, say that a company develops an alternative to oil. It's expensive, as all new technologies are, but as the oil price rises to £80, £90, £100, £200 per barrel, it starts to become viable. People start switching to it and, as demand for this new technology rises, so does the supply, as people realise that it's a profitable business to be in. More supply means a lower price, as people undercut each other and work out cost savings to provide a lower priced product. Ergo, it becomes even more viable versus oil.

The market will compensate. It always does. The end of oil is not necessarily a bad thing and attempting to free the restricted resources is tampering with the changeover to the new technology (whatever the hell is going to win out) just as surely as taxation or subsidies would.

A perfect example of this is North Sea oil. The North Sea deposits were regarded as a joke 30 years ago. Sure, there was oil there, but did you have any idea of the cost of drilling in the North Sea?! Any oil got from there would be so stupidly expensive that it wouldn't be worthwhile. Then, oil prices rose. And kept rising. And kept rising. And then, the stupid prices for North Sea oil suddenly started to match that of Middle Eastern oil and the market shifted. The new supply suddenly became financially viable and supply switched. If, by some miracle, oil prices quartered overnight, then nobody would be mining in the North Sea. The market would adapt to the new price and people would demand or supply appropriately.

The market adapts to any situation Amicus. Isn't that your creed?

I understand that you'll want to dismiss this, as you have my explanations of economics before. Please, if you could read it through, and try to listen to what I'm saying with an open mind. This isn't my opinion. It's the theorisings of thousands of economists.

And despite your common remarks, it's also a very right-wing opinion.

The Earl
 
trysail said:
There is no easy substitute for petroleum and we've now got two billion Chinese and Indians all wanting automobiles. I don't think the Chinese are interested in going back to riding bicycles.

I admit it; this one's got me a little bit apprehensive.

If they really, really want them, then they'll pay the market price, just the same as we will. If they can't afford to pay the market price, then a bicycle may be the more economic mode of transport.

Cf my above post.

The Earl
 
JAMESBJOHNSON said:
When whale oil was 95 cents a gallon John D. Rockefeller created Standard Oil Company and sold kerosene for 5 cents a gallon. Rockefeller effectively killed the American whaling industry.

If gasoline doubles in cost a new Rockefeller will kill the oil industry.
The US has a ton of Oil shale, which becomes economically viable when Oil hits something around $95 a barrel and stays there.

We also have a crapload of coal, which can be heavily polluting, but would be much more heavily utilized if Oil hit even $120 a barrel.

Plus, there's good old Solar and Wind, which become much more economically and politically desirable the higher energy costs go.
 
JamesSD said:
The US has a ton of Oil shale, which becomes economically viable when Oil hits something around $95 a barrel and stays there.

We also have a crapload of coal, which can be heavily polluting, but would be much more heavily utilized if Oil hit even $120 a barrel.

Plus, there's good old Solar and Wind, which become much more economically and politically desirable the higher energy costs go.
Actually ...Biofuels are more environmentally responsible and easier to render than the oil companies will admit. We have bio-diesel which is rendered from soy oil, we can also render bio-gasoline which is one of the last products made from the refining process.

No, I think were going to have to live with the rich eating off our backs for a while... The solution just requires too much sacrifice to make it feasible no matter how good it is for humanity. Remember, no one has ever given up eating steak for supper until their doctors told them that it was going to kill them.
 
The Earl:
"...Applying an artificial restriction to the supply of oil (such as preventing drilling in certain areas) means that supply goes down (through a right-shift of the supply line, for those of you following on your graphs at home) and price therefore goes up. As price goes up, demand will fall. Where oil use is not economic at the new price, it will be discontinued..."

~~~

Thank you Earl, yes I am aware of market functions.

A few things I feel you did not take into consideration. One, that petroleum is a global industry, in that US restrictions on oil exploration and development, rather than spur the industry to alternatives, just drove them out of the country. See the bottom line reports of all the major energy corporations; their emphasis has shifted outside the United States.

Secondly, when restrictions are placed on a specific market function, the investment capital will seek other areas, not necessarily those intended by the political motivation imposing the restrictions.

Further, in an area like medical services, when the medical community internally restricts the number of providers and outlets, augmented by government sanctions and grants or the withholding of them to maintain the shortage thus the high prices, of course the market follows function, but in this case, people suffer and die.

A specific area of the market does not function in a vacuum, rather has a mutually dependency upon other aspects of the market place. Specifically, government subsidies and restrictions, driving the market to capitalize in bio-fuels, competes for basic resources, in this case food supply, increasing prices while demand remains high and the poorest class suffers from the inability to purchase the same amount of food at the higher prices.

The function of the free, unrestricted market place is fairly cut and dried; the function of a politically manipulated market place is a crap shoot, it cannot be determined where the investment capital will flow nor what the collateral effects will be.

Nice post and I did not dismiss it.

Amicus...
 
amicus said:
....

Even should disaster occur and thousands or tens of thousands of lives be needlessly lost in a natural disaster or a harsh winter, the left would just say we deserve what we get for abusing the earth and polluting the environment.

........

Yep we will, and we do.

But you just carry on raping and pillaging the earth until you've bled her dry. Don't even think about putting resources into researching other forms of energy, despite the fact that we know the coal and oil and gas are going to run out eventually. Let's not worry one little bit about the future we are bequeathing to our children and grandchildren....

Such a predictable response from you Ami.
 
matriarch said:
Yep we will, and we do.

But you just carry on raping and pillaging the earth until you've bled her dry. Don't even think about putting resources into researching other forms of energy, despite the fact that we know the coal and oil and gas are going to run out eventually. Let's not worry one little bit about the future we are bequeathing to our children and grandchildren....

Such a predictable response from you Ami.


~~~

And such a typical response from a bleeding heart.

There is no kind and pastoral Mother Earth, she is a cruel bitch, out to get us all as her mountains explode and her crust grinds civilizations into dust. Rape and pillage is a political ploy trying to place human status on a cold and unfeeling earth that spawns storms and locusts to prey upon struggling mankind.

The four and a half billion year history of planet earth is filled with events that extinguished life at all levels, time and time again, a cruel mistress this mother earth and I experience joy each time I plunge a drill deep into her guts.

You see, I worship human life and man and will exploit every last resource of this planet for the sustainment and nourishment of humankind.

Ah, yes, the sons and daughters of this earth will thrive in the year 2525, notwithstanding your generational doom and gloom about the future. That mythical garden of Eden will indeed exist, in the future, when all of you apologists for the grey ghost of Galilee are but a forgotten note in ancient history.

Amicus...

Edited to add, "grey ghost of Galilee" paraphrased from an Algernon Charles Swinburne poem....
 
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I hope the price of oil goes to $300 a barrel. That'll force these Humvee-driving assholes to ride a fucking bicycle.
 
amicus said:
Thank you Earl, yes I am aware of market functions.
To be fair, the last time I took one of our discussions into economics, even to the extent of drawing diagrams, you did ignore them and accuse me of lusting after Empire, so I don't think that I'm unjustified in my cautioned approach.

amicus said:
A few things I feel you did not take into consideration. One, that petroleum is a global industry, in that US restrictions on oil exploration and development, rather than spur the industry to alternatives, just drove them out of the country. See the bottom line reports of all the major energy corporations; their emphasis has shifted outside the United States.
I don't necessarily view that as a bad thing. Surely the USA should be focussing its productive energies on secondary goods, rather than trying to scrape out raw materials from areas which have other values.

amicus said:
Secondly, when restrictions are placed on a specific market function, the investment capital will seek other areas, not necessarily those intended by the political motivation imposing the restrictions.
That's a reaction of the market and a good thing. Sanctions shouldn't be placed with political motivation, other than the first-order effect, in this case of preserving areas of the USA.

amicus said:
The function of the free, unrestricted market place is fairly cut and dried; the function of a politically manipulated market place is a crap shoot, it cannot be determined where the investment capital will flow nor what the collateral effects will be.
I'm sorry, but that's simply not true. The last thing that any market place can be considered is 'cut and dried'. Every market is a crap shoot, which is why any intervention will hit troubles. The graphs can be drawn after the event, but there is no such thing as perfect knowledge in economics and thus no way of knowing how a market is working, or will work in the future. You can make educated guesses, but that's the best that you can even remotely hope for.

The market will naturally wibble on its own. A simple intervention, such as ruling some lands off-limits for drilling, will barely touch that.

The Earl
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by amicus
The function of the free, unrestricted market place is fairly cut and dried; the function of a politically manipulated market place is a crap shoot, it cannot be determined where the investment capital will flow nor what the collateral effects will be.

~~~

"...I'm sorry, but that's simply not true. The last thing that any market place can be considered is 'cut and dried'. Every market is a crap shoot, which is why any intervention will hit troubles. The graphs can be drawn after the event, but there is no such thing as perfect knowledge in economics and thus no way of knowing how a market is working, or will work in the future. You can make educated guesses, but that's the best that you can even remotely hope for.

The market will naturally wibble on its own. A simple intervention, such as ruling some lands off-limits for drilling, will barely touch that..."

The Earl


~~~

Okay, Earl, "cut and dried", and 'crap shoot', are not acceptable economic terms, but then this is not a formal presentation, rather it is intended to communicate with a general audience.

Each day billions of dollars are invested in the market based on learned predictions of market performance and corporate integrity. Actuarial tables, past performance, market conditions, the more erudite, the more knowledgeable one can become about market functions.

I presented my opinion expecting most to recognize the accepted parameter within which a market place functions and the cautious investment of capital based upon those parameters and guidelines.

Market investment is pretty much a science for the professionals, they are seldom wrong because they are closely aware of the ingredients of the market place.

My opposition to government, political manipulations, such as the recent and current market intervention in bio-fuels, et cetera, is because these unpredictable externalities cannot be factored in to give the investor a firm hold on market functions.

I am an observer, a spectator and sometimes investor in the market place but I am not and have never claimed to be a professional on the level of Handprints and others or one who teaches economics or market functions as a professional.

I don't mind that you take exception at my position or my conclusions concerning the economy, nor even that you lay claim to being a quasi-conservative in economic matters, however I do expect you to accept my opinions as informed and in general, rational, concerning not just the market, but a wide range of issues that interest me.

regards...


amicus....
 
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