Should we learn how to walk before we try to run?

Apparently I can't edit the subject, but if I had it to do over again a better title would have been "Should we learn how to walk before we try to run?" Now back to original post...

And I don't only mean in a general philosophical sense.

Occasionally there is this false online bravado where a dominant takes the stance of "dangers be damned, I’m an edge player!" or boasts about "knocking some sense" into a reluctant submissive. While sometimes it is appropriate to engage in risky behavior or short circuit normal dialogue with firm actions, shouldn't a dominant understand the dangers and perceptions beforehand? What self-respecting submissive would agree to a risky act or rough treatment if they didn't think their partner understood the implications?

Like an avant-garde filmmaker disregarding normal conventions, shouldn't a dominant understand the rules before breaking them? Do you think enough dominants really understand what they are doing? Or do some manage to get by simply because they claim to be "in charge" and refuse for their competence to be a subject open to review?

What do you think?

well I'm an art school refugee, so I think the answer is yes. Everyone should spend a couple of years learning to draw. Now, some really strict clacissists think everyone should learn to draw like Ingres before they dare move on to abstraction, I'm not that rigid.

But I think that having a familiarity with negotiation, sub-driven play, bottoming and having a service experience before topping, simple sensual sensation play, etc. are all good things. I think that they have *enhanced* my edge play, actually. I think they make me a better and more attuned edge player in those more intermediate scenes that push me up a notch.

(if one sees me that way. I do bite off what I know I can chew, though I crave extreme activity.)

As a sub, i personally think that everyone, both PYL/pyl should know the rules. As in any "game" if you don't know the rules, how can you play it correctly? You can't.

Do i want to be with a Dom who has no clue what this is all truly about? Oh hell, NO. Trust is such a big factor for me, and how can you trust a person who has no idea what they are really doing? I know, that I for one, could not.

Since I've started coming to lit, which hasn't been long btw, I've had more than one so called Dom try to hit me up. It is amazing how easy it is even for my untrained eyes to see right thru the wanna be Doms. I'm not into the online thing, but came here to learn and explore. I could go into a rant about online wanna be Doms and how to expose them, but i'm going to be a good girl, say, thank you for the post MB and leave it at that.

I always thought that what was important about being dominant was that you get to do what you want. The limits being in what you don't want to do, and what your partner(s) won't allow you to do. Of course, add some societal rules and context and morality around that as well.

So which rules are the ones we should know about before we break them? Because if you break the morality rules, or societal rules, or the limits on what your partner will allow, you're likely to get locked up. And if you break your own rules, well on your own head be it.

well that was one of the things I considered basic "rules" when I was being trained, YMMV. My mentor was hammering home the point that every relationship will do things differently and every person will do things differently till I wanted to scream, almost, but that's one of the basic tenets I think important.

what rules do you mean?

Do you mean rules like not going from anal to vaginal or something else?

I only started to come to this forum after I got my PYL. I knew some basic stuff like safewords but my current PYL has taught me alot.

One the things are knowing the rules. I know that using my safewords makes what we are doing safer for me and ultimately puts me in control. I also want to do what he likes and he pushes my limits a little every time we play, not breaking the rules but testing the waters. And he knows if he has gone far enough to stop.

I think the rules protect us both and keeps us both safe.

Clarification

I wasn't trying to start a discussion specifically about rules or safewords.

My intention was: Shouldn't we know how to conduct "normal adult relationships" before moving to BDSM relationships? Or to echo Netzach's first post, shouldn't we learn how to competently draw before jumping into abstract act? Maybe a better thread title would have been "should we learn how to walk before we try to run?" so I will make that edit now.

Example #1: A mature, well-adjusted adult should be able to resolve standard problems using diplomacy. In BDSM, however, a dominant might handle a dispute with a regular conversation or they might go the sadistic route. My point is that all of this online posturing where people act like the majority of issues in BDSM relationships are handled by "slapping some sense" into a submissive is not in touch with reality. It looks like fantasy talk from people who are misrepresenting their background.

Example #2: There are a bunch of people who run around here saying "yum, blood" or "I fantasize about getting brutally raped" and so on. Some of these folks think they have outgrown the more standard activities and their posturing somehow makes them seem more advanced. Yet experienced people think it is ridiculous and shows a limited skill set, tending to indicate they have never properly experienced the more standard D/s or sadomasochistic activites. Previous threads have confirmed that the gap between fantasy/reality narrows in a well-match and adequately developed BDSM relationship.

As one still learning (and planning on learning for quite some time to come), I believe you should learn to swing the whip before just whirling it around and slamming it into someone. Should have a good if not exact idea of what its going to inflict under good and bad circumstances.
Should also know at least basic first aid and have a first aid kit on site/in room just in case. I know, probably overkill but I'm a medic, its habit.

A relationship thats akin to 'nilla "dating" status shouldn't have disputes settled with "knocking some sense" into the pyl. Can't see that lasting very long or being very healthy for either party involved really.
And unless its a complete perminant power exchange, I can't see a relationship, nilla or BDSM, being so one sided that the PYL is ALWAYS right, no matter what, and punishment comes from disputing anything.
I may be wrong but that just doesn't make sense to me at all.

So yeah, I believe that having a mentor into the world of BDSM is a helpful thing, not matter which side of the paddle one is on. And said mentor should hopefully realise whether the mentoree is ready for this or not and tell them so.

Hope that made sense.

I sometimes think I am becoming a little old fashioned, but other times think it is the beauty of having reached a significant age where you can look back over your life which has spanned more than 2 decades and more than a few massive challenges to survive, and marvel at just how much changes throughout the life span. Not only are the changes physical, but you can look back at yourself at various stages and see how even though considered by many to be mature beyond your years, adventurous and living outside the norm most of your life, you continue to learn and grow and what at 20 seems to be the answer to life and all you want, will often not be the same at 30, and again that will not be the same at 40.....your views change, grow, develop to incorporate all you experience and to adjust to the maturity that continues to grow for the term of your life IMO. For that reason I think for most it is good to have a foundation of dealing with relationships of the vanilla kind, the basics I guess, before trying to complicate it even more with D/s.

I know I have had fantasies and desires for this lifestyle since early childhood, but there is no way I could have managed to make that fantasy a reality in the way I have if I did not have those experiences of life and relationships through which to learn and fall back on. And yes, if I was 20 and read this I would likely have thought 'yes, but that is you, not me and my experience'...and for some that would be a valid assessment, but I still think there are some things you can never understand or experience in the same way without the benefit of a life lived to add the various dimensions to that reality...no doubt in 10 years I will have another completely different understanding and experience of the life I am living now.

I think there is a need for compatibility if looking at having relationships in D/s, and even with that compatibility there are going to be moments when the D/s has to realise the human quality of life and not take the 'slapping some sense into the sub' attitude in an attempt to dominate another when deeper issues are present. Like you say Mr Blonde, it does sound a lot like the fantasy material that draws many to this lifestyle, not reality. If it is a person's reality and is the way all difficulties are dealt with, I begin to think that is more in line with abuse than a relationship between real people with real life situations to deal with within a D/s commitment. If the submission or Dominance becomes more important than the mental and/or physical well being of your partner, you have missed one of the most important points related to the D/s relationship...responsibility.

Subs are not robots, they have feelings and they have situations which happen to trigger moments in them where perfect copybook submission is not going to happen no matter how committed to the ideal they both are. It is not realistic, and nor does it mean the Dominant is soft to take the time to listen and decide whether to support and make allowances, or support and still discipline on some level. There are people on this board alone, myself included, who deal daily with issues of depression (not just a sad day here and there but deep soul destroying and controlling mood swings), medications which alter personalities and feelings, grief, hormone changes, illness, and a multitude of other situations which are often uncontrollable and not so easily dismissed with the thought that if one were truly submissive they would just submit on command and obey without hesitation or difficulty because that is who they are..and nor does it mean the sub does not feel emotional pain at not being able to be as they would like in every moment. LOL, I wish.

As to the thought the gap between fantasy/reality narrows in a well-match and adequately developed BDSM relationship, in our experience that seems to be true. There is little either of us fantasise about that does not fall into the areas of things which will or could become real. When I was single there was a lot of fantasy that just was unlikely to be real ever, and that bordered or belonged in the realm of only possible in a fantasy. Now it seems I just don't find much of an attraction in them anymore so they don't work the same. Much of what we do, and plan to do are our fantasy material and for me that alone makes it much more exciting than the unattainable.

Catalinahttp://www.smilies4you.de/content/sonstige/b24.gif

I think Vixandra's comments make a lot of sense. I am still learning but sometimes dom/mes have to move ahead before they are completely ready. In those cases I either warn my girlfriend or at least hedge my bets by going half-speed. I touched upon my internal dilemmas in a previous thread (Putting it all together to have a serious relationship).

As for Catalina's comments, I can only look back at my own history and agree with her sentiments. I had some good vanilla relationships before progressing into my first BDSM situation. My initial relationship was good, but immaturity and impatience plagued my followup attempts (I've posted about it in previous discussions). My efforts at BDSM did not improve until I got a better handle on other aspects of life. I was never a walking trainwreck like some people but it took adjustments before I was clicking better on all cylinders.

If you have arrested development issues, it is not like diving BDSM is going to solve your existing problems. If you can't relate to a woman as a human being, it is not like screaming "kneel bitch" is going to change anything. And I don't know how submissives actually buy into that junk. Would they rationalize additional justifications or somehow filter reality to accept such treatment?