Defensive

When you notice your sub/slave or Dominant becoming defensive when there is no need to do so does it set off a warning bell?

Of course I will add My two cents but have a desire to look past My own opinion this time instead of stating it in the first post.

I suspect this could make an interesting converstation..anyone care to join Me?

Shadowsdream said:

When you notice your sub/slave or Dominant becoming defensive when there is no need to do so does it set off a warning bell?

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That ... or tentative. My voice lowered in volume, and i extended a hand waiting for submission. If the behavior continued, i slowly bent the arm back continuing to watch. If my hand touched my shoulder, she never saw the backhand. Needless to say, the bell rung no longer had anything to do with defensive, nor tentative warnings.

Re: Re: Defensive

AngelicAssassin said:

That ... or tentative. My voice lowered in volume, and i extended a hand waiting for submission. If the behavior continued, i slowly bent the arm back continuing to watch. If my hand touched my shoulder, she never saw the backhand. Needless to say, the bell rung no longer had anything to do with defensive, nor tentative warnings.

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That's just awesome enough to work.

Re: Re: Defensive

Oops! I don't think this thread was intended to get me aroused. Deepest apologies.

I am all a bit new to this, both this board and to this sort of relationship, so I'm reluctant to say too much. Newbies should be watching and learning more then anything.

But on this, let me say....

If your partner becomes defensive when there is no need to do so, I would surmise that you've hit a nerve.

Either you've done something inadvertantly to upset your partner, or there is something in your partner that s/he feels guilty/ashamed/embarrassed about.

It all depends about the dynamics of your relationship, but I would certainly see it as a 'warning bell', and I would be VERY observant at the very least, to find out what is going on. A 'deep and meaningful' may be warranted.

Defensiveness... on my list of things I must work on.

Well, sometimes it does. Other times it's my fault he's getting defensive. He thinks I'm blaming him, when I'm not. Or he thinks I'm mad at him, when in truth I'm mad at someone else. In those times communication is the key.

I guess it depends on what he's being defensive about. If it's something that he might have done, then I get suspicious. If it is totally from left field, then I figure we're just not communicating well.

Is defensive or tentative the only thing to raise warning flags or set off bells?

What about indifference or ambivalence? As in things the submissive used to do with great passion are now done; but their enthusiam is lacking or gone.

Esclava

Re: Re: Defensive

AngelicAssassin said:

That ... or tentative. My voice lowered in volume, and i extended a hand waiting for submission. If the behavior continued, i slowly bent the arm back continuing to watch. If my hand touched my shoulder, she never saw the backhand. Needless to say, the bell rung no longer had anything to do with defensive, nor tentative warnings.

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AA you scare me. I going to hide under my bed now.

Top shelf post AA.

I think sometimes subs get defensive (I'm referring to conversation but I believe much crosses over in behavior) when you try to introduce them to something they are interested in but need convincing or reassurance.

Take this conversation for example:*

"So what are your limits?"

"Limits? Like stuff I wouldn't do?"

"Yes, that's what limit means."

"I don't know? Whatever I guess."

"Would you do anything involving blood, puke, shit or extreme pain?"

"Uh, NO!"

"Those are pretty standard I think. Piss?"

"You pissing on me or..."

"Yes."

"No."

"(we'll see) How about anal sex?"

"Anal sex! I would never let a man fuck me in the ass! How dare you! You are so evil, why would you want to fuck me in the ass! Doesn't it hurt?"



*dramatized for effect (not as much as you might think though)

Esclava said:

Is defensive or tentative the only thing to raise warning flags or set off bells?

What about indifference or ambivalence? As in things the submissive used to do with great passion are now done; but their enthusiam is lacking or gone.

Esclava

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I dealt with this with my first sub. Largely I think it was due to a lack of creativity on my part, and her feeling like she was having to top from the bottom.

I often think with much embarassment about the time she dressed as a catholic schoolgirl and uttered some of the sultriest, sluttiest most self degrading lines a man could ever hope to hear a gorgeous bitch dressed as a catholic schoolgirl say.

It was too much for my boyish sensibilities. I choked, "wow that was awesome honey."

She was clearly dissapointed, but comitted to acting this out. "Stay in character"

My dick shrunk two sizes that day.

If only I knew then what I know now.

Originally posted by Shadowsdream
When you notice your sub/slave or Dominant becoming defensive when there is no need to do so does it set off a warning bell?

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Assuming I had eliminated outside factors such as troubles at work or problems with family members, I'd certainly examine the relationship and wonder what was happening. Yes, I'd be hearing warning bells.

Each relationship is different so I can't elaborate without getting into specifics. One example: An ex-submissive was becoming defensive and upon reflection I traced it back to me having fell into a rut due to fatigue/laziness. I harped on the same aspects of her submission and was ignoring other parts. Increasing the diversity of my dominance greatly improved the environment of the relationship.

I think people get defensive at certain times in their relationships, whether they are dominant or submissive. Being in a 24/7 D/s relationship doesn't negate the regular old relationship stuff--like like a bad day at work, being overtired, whatever.

For us, it can be a combination of things. He works nights, and at times has a difficult time sleeping in the daytime. Not enough sleep and his defenso-meter raises into the yellow zone. He will usually need more time to nap in the evening during "our" time.

For me, it can be an extra busy day at work, where I'm feeling overwhelmed. If too much is asked of me at home, I feel I can't cope, and boom, red zone. I need small, accomplishable tasks, and some down time when I get home.

Each situation is different, but those are some generalizations. We know how we are, and we work around it within our dynamic to deal with it. It's a relationship, and it takes work, after all...

Oh, and I forgot to add....sometimes a good, old fashioned, beating just does the trick for both of us, LOL!!



~anelize

AnelizeDarkEyes said:

I think people get defensive at certain times in their relationships, whether they are dominant or submissive. Being in a 24/7 D/s relationship doesn't negate the regular old relationship stuff--like like a bad day at work, being overtired, whatever.




~anelize

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Precisely. Now, I'm a sensitive person and I take things quite to heart. So if I've had a bad day at work, or tired, or a harder time dealing with the anxiety and depression that day. It is not as bad as it used to be, there was one period where it was all I could do to get up and go to work. During these times, yeah, I could get defensive.

Now, if there is no reason apparent for the defensiveness, ferreting it out may be more difficult. Its a matter of trying to find out why the emotions are going haywire and causing behavior which may seem to have no basis in logic.

Marquis said:

Top shelf post AA.

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Thank you. If you look close, i quite visibly "rang all the warning bells" in me for her to notice. Regardless of her hard day at the office, home, shopping, whatever; she chose to offer her submission. When presented with the opportunity to visibly show deference, she chose poorly. Sometimes talking things out works, especially when both parties get torn in multiple directions, but when a PYL demands his/her due in no uncertain terms, pay the consequences for failure.

AnelizeDarkEyes said:

Oh, and I forgot to add....sometimes a good, old fashioned, beating just does the trick for both of us, LOL!

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Chuckling ... yep. It certainly clears the air of any "fog of misunderstand."

AngelicAssassin said:

Thank you. If you look close, i quite visibly "rang all the warning bells" in me for her to notice. Regardless of her hard day at the office, home, shopping, whatever; she chose to offer her submission. When presented with the opportunity to visibly show deference, she chose poorly. Sometimes talking things out works, especially when both parties get torn in multiple directions, but when a PYL demands his/her due in no uncertain terms, pay the consequences for failure.
Chuckling ... yep. It certainly clears the air of any "fog of misunderstand."

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So my question is, would you have put the hand down if she had lowered her eyes?

Marquis said:

So my question is, would you have put the hand down if she had lowered her eyes?

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To caress her hair, yes. Simple acknowledgement leads to the heart to heart talk others inferred or mentioned, but the submission comes first. Otherwise, why enter a relationship based on dominance and submission?

Marquis said:

Top shelf post AA.

I think sometimes subs get defensive (I'm referring to conversation but I believe much crosses over in behavior) when you try to introduce them to something they are interested in but need convincing or reassurance.

Take this conversation for example:*

"So what are your limits?"

"Limits? Like stuff I wouldn't do?"

"Yes, that's what limit means."

"I don't know? Whatever I guess."

"Would you do anything involving blood, puke, shit or extreme pain?"

"Uh, NO!"

"Those are pretty standard I think. Piss?"

"You pissing on me or..."

"Yes."

"No."

"(we'll see) How about anal sex?"

"Anal sex! I would never let a man fuck me in the ass! How dare you! You are so evil, why would you want to fuck me in the ass! Doesn't it hurt?"



*dramatized for effect (not as much as you might think though)

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heh. heh. heh.

A no-nonsense approach. Admirable.

My favorite quote from the film American Pimp:

Narrator: What percentage of the money do they get to keep?

Pimp: Keep?! None!! You better give me 100% of that money if you want 100% of this pimping.

AngelicAssassin said:

To caress her hair, yes. Simple acknowledgement leads to the heart to heart talk others inferred or mentioned, but the submission comes first. Otherwise, why enter a relationship based on dominance and submission?

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This is as a perfect a statement as I've seen, in quite a some time, about D/s. The submission comes first. It is not something to be negotiated each and every time the ply has a bad day. Bad days happen to us all--all the time. But we can't use them as an excuse not to show our submission. We submit first, then discuss how we might be having an off day. Things tend to work out better when we do it in that order.

I've been known to be taking about whatever, and with a look that passes momentarily across the eyes of a PLY, (and I mean not even 'the' look) stop, because whatever I'm doing is just wrong. It was interesting the first time it happened, I literally stopped mid-word in a sentence, shut up and lowered my eyes. And I never forgot that moment. There are times when I need to just plain STOP, mentally take 2 steps backs and re-think my position.

Submission comes first, and everything else I need follows. But I admit it's good to have those moments of crystal clarity. Puts your priorities right in order.

~cait

Someone -anyone - becoming defensive doesn't necessarily set off warning bells for me in the "uh-oh, now I'm suspicious" sense, especially within a significant relationship.

My reaction depends on the person and the relationship - sometimes space, sometimes extra lovins', sometimes down and dirty...whatever is going to help the Person back to themselves.

If it's consistent over a period of time and external factors (bad day, not enough oxygen for everyone, stop breathin' mine mood) have been eliminated, then maybe suspicion will come, but usually there will be other behaviors to confirm that the suspicion is warranted.

shay

Thank you all for joining in this conversation. So many different perspectives covering many different scenerios.

I chose this subject from a personal curiosity point as I have recently dealt with defensiveness with My fem sub trainee as I corrected her about accepting gifts one of which was a collar.

It was a side of her I had not previously seen and it simply made Me yawn in boredom as I allowed her to play the "new" card.

Listening to someone dance around and backstep their original intents when the only invested out come is theirs makes the hair on the back of My neck stand on end and a big dose of verbal reality is on its way. I guarantee you!

This girl came to Me many months ago directly from the vanilla world and with a vanilla boyfriend in tow. I took on the task of mentoring them both knowing full well that his love for her was the only reason he was there. That love made it impossible for him to dominate her and as expected she broke off there 2 year relationship in order to find her dream.

Since this time she has been well trained and filled with information and protocol...at the top of the food chain as I helped her in her search for a Master to serve forever. she has now found the man that wishes to take her on this journey and move her to the states. Unfortunately he spoils her with expensive gifts and it is obvious even in a short time he is wrapped completely around her finger.

During his visit here to meet Me he gave her a collar and many other etc's. The etc's are fine but the collar is not and when I began to explain why she got defensive and played the "i am new card" which of course received My dirision (sp?) I insisted she have him call Me and I then straightened him out as well.

The defensive attitude told Me many things the biggest being that she is prepared to settle for less than she was looking for and that attitude will eventually cause her unhappiness and as her trainer I will not allow it. My hard ass attitude has them both slightly uncertain now but also greatful to know that I will not allow their potential relationship to get off on a limp leg.

Poor them...they get to sit down with Me for My 3 hour interrogation where I will get them vocally on the same page and understanding the protocol expected when going from one Dom/me to another.

It was the simple act of defensiveness on the telephone that told Me My girl was on the road back to vanilla thinking that alerted Me it was time to give her a really close look at My toughness in order to save her dream.

Shadowsdream said:

dirision (sp?)

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Doesn't matter, i understood what you meant, and you chose the politer version of ridicule.

Shadowsdream said:

My hard ass attitude has them both slightly uncertain now but also greatful to know that I will not allow their potential relationship to get off on a limp leg.

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And they'll thank you for it later.

Shadowsdream said:

... understanding the protocol expected when going from one Dom/me to another.

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Amazing, but in the vein i previously indicated.

Shadowsdream said:

... time to give her a really close look at My toughness in order to save her dream.

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Tough love? God forbid any of us ever do anything thinking beyond the near term. Congrats SD. Well played indeed.

~~smile~~ thank You AA

It is a tough job but someone has to do it.

My girl is on her way over to spend the day reorganizing My CD collection and W/we will continue to discuss this subject.

I am delighted for her and the new life she is likely to begin very soon. It is time to begin to slowly back away from being her Mistress so that when they sign the contract of consideration at the end of the month it will be without My influence lingering over them yet with My support for both being assured.

Because I enjoy mind gazing I find the defensive pose to be a new twist to unravel!

I think for me Anelize and silver_inari pretty much speak to me and my situation. Submission is what we all hopefully strive to achieve each and every day, perfection also for most, but as most of us know, we are all human and perfection is more an ideal than a reality....LOL, and this coming from a perfectionist!!

I do think if I were in a situation where the relationship was part-time, casual, or anything but 24/7, perhaps avoiding those moments which are less than our finest would be possible most days, if not all. Unfortunately (or fortunately as the case may be), when you are 24/7 you are at your Dominant's call constantly, which means both the good moments and the not so good moments, the daylight and night hours.

Add to that severe issues with depression on an almost daily basis, other life stressors such as grief, children, finances, triggers etc., and you are hard put to avoid a situation of never having an off moment, a defensive mood triggered by a word or moment, for both Dominant and submissive alike.

To feel it is expected and possible in all situations to be able to put the submission (or Dominance for Dominants) first and foremost at gold medal level means that sub (or Dom/me) deserves IMHO the 'super sub' (super Dom/me) award. It is a nice fantasy I entertain, but a reality?... no. I'm human, he's human, we both have moments when we do not put our best foot forward, when we sense it is best to not push the other in directions which will be less than productive for the relationship.

It requires communication and a lot of patience on both sides, and sometimes just plain old understanding and compassion. For me, when he can see my pain and knows despite what looks like obvious disrespect or disobedience it goes a lot deeper and is not a picnic in the park on my side either, he is far more Dominant and worthy of my respect than if he were to grab me physically and begin forcing me to submit physically to prove he was still the Dominant. Any macho focused male can use physical strength to force his wishes and desires, or intimidate into submission....as the song says "that don't impress me much".

He doesn't have to do that, I know who the Dominant is, but I also know I cannot be a robot who falls to the floor without fail in a submissive worshipping mound at his feet, pushing all personal pain from my mind and spirit just because he speaks or raises an eyebrow or finger in my direction. I can try, and I do, but trying and succeeding are often miles apart...so we talk, listen, be aware, support and appreciate, and work through that which refuses to magically disappear everytime he walks in the room. I think it takes a lot more talent, self confidence in their Dominance, and control for a Dom/me to be able to assess those moments when wilfulness is not the cause of defensiveness, and deal with the situation in a positive way which demonstrates insight and understanding more than come out swinging and relying on physicality and/or 'allow no discussion' approach aimed to subdue at any cost as a one dimensional response to an already difficult and touchy moment. I see it in the fantasy books and movies, but in reality I have yet to see it work in a healthy relationship, D/s or otherwise.

ROFLMAO, as Anelize says, sometimes a good beating works wonders. For us it is a mutual stress relief, not a way to punish or force the issue.

Catalina http://www.smilies4you.de/content/traurig/a8.gif