How, or do you address negative concepts of BDSM?

I was interested to know when confronted with someone discussing BDSM in a negative way if you feel compelled to correct their misconceptions, or keep silent? If you address the comments, in what way do you do it? I also realise the choice to do so may vary depending on the situation and people involved.

While I worked as a domestic violence counsellor in a feminist organisation, being originally hired for my expertise and reputation as a strong feminist, I was regularly exposed to conversations of fellow workers who mostly felt the only way anyone would be involved in BDSM as a submissive was if they were severely abused and felt there was no choice. They repeated claimed that no-one would willingly subject themselves to pain, amongst other things, not to mention enjoy it.

For a time I tried to offer another view in a casual way but it was not accepted. In the end I found it important to me as a person and feminist to point out the dynamics and freedom of choice as opposed to their belief it was a forced lifestyle. My information gave them another viewpoint, though not all were convinced.

Catalina

I think it depends on who you are taliking to and why. If they are naive about BDSM and want to learn, then you talk in one way explaining the reasons for the lifestyle.

If they are like your coworkers then you explain that being a sub is more about trust than anything else. As a Dom, I would not be able to do most of the stuff that I do now without the trust and consent of my sub. After all she is the one who has all the power. All she needs to do is say her safeword and everything stops right then.

I usually laugh gently as I shake My head and ignore the subject..which usually creates a need in the one against submission and Domination to ask questions rather than give opinions.
I then explain about courage, honesty and integrity.

I'm not sure of the impact of 1-1 discussions, arguements, etc.
Being a good example (of a human being) is better that being a proponent, an arguer, even one that 'wins.'

On the larger issue of public opinion, I think it will change, as with gays, when 'out' people are found to be otherwise normal or even gifted(in other fields) and socially useful**.

The only example I can think of is that US arms inspector who's apparently into leather (and I think still has a job).

**PS And no threat to children.

Pure said:

I'm not sure of the impact of 1-1 discussions, arguements, etc.
Being a good example (of a human being) is better that being a proponent, an arguer, even one that 'wins.'

On the larger issue of public opinion, I think it will change, as with gays, when 'out' people are found to be otherwise normal or even gifted(in other fields) and socially useful**.

The only example I can think of is that US arms inspector who's apparently into leather (and I think still has a job).

**PS And no threat to children.

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I agree arguments and heated discussions are just buying into anothers misguided power trip in most cases, but sometimes if you don't advocate diplomatically and try to educate, the opponents to freedom for all to be who they are do not even realise you are a good example of anything and remain forever blissfully ignorant there are other ways and views.

It is of course important to choose your moments of sowing seeds of enlightenment, but always worth the effort even if you only reach 1% of those you share with. It is in this way women first gained recognition and then were followed by racial and gay rights movements who valued their example.

It is from being active in these areas at various points since early childhood that I find it important to try and do the same in the area of BDSM. I am so tired of the loud insistence of those who feel they know better and need to save us from ourselves and yet when it comes down to it they usually have virtually nothing on which they base their assessment. This in turn has negative effects upon the community and those within it.

Being a great believer in education, especially the kind learned from people who have first hand knowledge and experience, that the urge to present another point of view to the uninitiated is often irresistable. This does not mean I shove it down their throat and create animosity, at least not intentionally, but I try to give a mature and informed glimpse of our diversity and motivation so they might at least try to accept it should be our right to choose.

Catalina

catalina_francisco said:

I was interested to know when confronted with someone discussing BDSM in a negative way if you feel compelled to correct their misconceptions, or keep silent? If you address the comments, in what way do you do it? I also realise the choice to do so may vary depending on the situation and people involved.

While I worked as a domestic violence counsellor in a feminist organisation, being originally hired for my expertise and reputation as a strong feminist, I was regularly exposed to conversations of fellow workers who mostly felt the only way anyone would be involved in BDSM as a submissive was if they were severely abused and felt there was no choice. They repeated claimed that no-one would willingly subject themselves to pain, amongst other things, not to mention enjoy it.

For a time I tried to offer another view in a casual way but it was not accepted. In the end I found it important to me as a person and feminist to point out the dynamics and freedom of choice as opposed to their belief it was a forced lifestyle. My information gave them another viewpoint, though not all were convinced.

Catalina

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I would not be able to sit back and allow people to have misconceptions about my lifestyle. So I usually step up to the plate and kindly inform them of just how wrong they are. See, people seem to think that the submissive is a person who grew up abused<as you said>and that the dominant is just trying to keep them from living their own lives. This is the worst misconception a person could have. Personally, <yes I was abused> I went through years of therapy to be able to get into subspace<as a switch it's great> without having a freak-out. My husband was also a great help during this time. He was always there when I needed and knew when I didn't need him. The BDSM lifestyle is about the exchange of power between two <or more> consenting adults. All the scene-ing is talked out beforehand so that each knows what is happening<for those who are new> and the dominant must know enough about themselves and their submissive that they don't take it to extremes.

Can we shoot stupid Dom wannabes?

Shadowsdream said:

I usually laugh gently as I shake My head and ignore the subject..which usually creates a need in the one against submission and Domination to ask questions rather than give opinions.
I then explain about courage, honesty and integrity.

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The problem of "confusion" between BDSM and genuinely abusive behavior exists, unfortunately, not just in people outside BDSM, but also in our very midst. The simple truth is that if I had a pound (or a dollar) for every jerk who just likes to beat women, but tries to put a nice spin on it by passing himself off as a BDSM Dom...well, I could fund quite a few shelters for battered women.
Which brings us to the subject line on this post - any way we can get at least a temporary "open season" declared on these sick bastards, so that one could shoot them on sight without having to trouble with explaining oneself to the local authorities?

Have gun, will travel,
Jack

In my experience, whether the topic is BDSM or anything else for that matter, there are two basic types of persons, those who ask questions, postulate opinions, listen and participate in discussion, and those who already KNOW and are SURE that they are RIGHT.

With the former, just explaining and engaging is intelligent discours is usually sufficient to correct any misconceptions. However, with the later, nothing on earth will change their narrow and opinionated minds. I don't waste my breath on them since, like discussing religion with fanatics, you can't change their mind and if they can't change yours they assume it's because you are stupid or defective; never considering that they may harbour the problem.

For the most part, I don't really care what misconceptions most vanilla peeps might hold about BDSM, I know what I'm about and I don't need their permission or good opinion. And too, their opinions are their business, unless they want to engage in genuine discussion.

incubus_dark said:

In my experience, whether the topic is BDSM or anything else for that matter, there are two basic types of persons, those who ask questions, postulate opinions, listen and participate in discussion, and those who already KNOW and are SURE that they are RIGHT.

With the former, just explaining and engaging is intelligent discours is usually sufficient to correct any misconceptions. However, with the later, nothing on earth will change their narrow and opinionated minds. I don't waste my breath on them since, like discussing religion with fanatics, you can't change their mind and if they can't change yours they assume it's because you are stupid or defective; never considering that they may harbour the problem.

For the most part, I don't really care what misconceptions most vanilla peeps might hold about BDSM, I know what I'm about and I don't need their permission or good opinion. And too, their opinions are their business, unless they want to engage in genuine discussion.

Click to expand...

Firstly, from one Aussie (homesick) to another I would like to welcome you to the BDSM discussions and voice appreciation for your intelligent input.

I agree with you in your catagorisation, though sometimes a seed sown will unexpectedly sprout and grow healthy and strong. My need to sometimes clarify the facts as opposed to myths is most likely based on my characteristic niave view that some people are ignorant through no fault of their own more so than a need for approval for my choices. If anything, I often get anything but approval which then gives me a challenge which I always love, but yes, I also respect everyone is entitled to their opinion as long as it is based on valid information.. Oh well, I have often been told I am an incorrigible optomist!!

Catalina

There's the right to be wrong, too

catalina_francisco said:

Firstly, from one Aussie (homesick) to another I would like to welcome you to the BDSM discussions and voice appreciation for your intelligent input.

I agree with you in your catagorisation, though sometimes a seed sown will unexpectedly sprout and grow healthy and strong. My need to sometimes clarify the facts as opposed to myths is most likely based on my characteristic niave view that some people are ignorant through no fault of their own more so than a need for approval for my choices. If anything, I often get anything but approval which then gives me a challenge which I always love, but yes, I also respect everyone is entitled to their opinion as long as it is based on valid information.. Oh well, I have often been told I am an incorrigible optomist!!

Catalina

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Actually, Cat, everyone's entitled to their opinion even if it's NOT based on valid information. In fact, what constitutes "valid information" is often a matter of opinion - check out any discussion between creationist and evolutionist scientists.
You're right about speaking to people regardless of how they may react to what you have to say - initial antagonism can indeed end up as ultimate agreement. Plus, there's the fact that one certainly makes life more difficult than it has to be, if one decides what to say, or not say, based on the expected reaction of one's audience.
Right, then. Continue...

Cheers,
Jack

catalina_francisco said:

For a time I tried to offer another view in a casual way but it was not accepted. In the end I found it important to me as a person and feminist to point out the dynamics and freedom of choice as opposed to their belief it was a forced lifestyle. My information gave them another viewpoint, though not all were convinced.

Catalina

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Yes, I find that unless with someone who is actually interested in learning about what they pass judgement on, a casual shrug and "To each their own" is my response.

I do think that on a professional level, you and I have a lot in common. Frankly, it was a huge part of my own baggage to be reconciled when exploring the lifestyle.

Having worked with abuse victims tended to jade my own thinking. Phew! I am glad I am out of that particular field for many reasons.

Pure said "being a good example (of a human being) is better that (than?) being a proponent, an arguer, or even on that 'wins'." Which I have to agree with. Since I am living in a healthy arrangement with my Dom and my happiness and such has improved immensely since we've been together I feel that the improvement in my quality of life is the best argument. (Note, I'm not talking physical quality of life like having things, I'm talking about the improvements in my self image and such.)

Other than that, I tend to pick my battles. I don't argue with the zealots of one form or another because they have made up their minds not to hear what I am saying. If the topic came up at work late one night I would probably be noncommital because the workplace is no place for a discussions of one's psyche or sexuality. It's innappropriate to be discussed there. Other than that, if the time and place is ok and the person I'm talking to is willing to consider what I have to say, (even if they disagree with me) then I'll go for it.

Like most things, it's a need to know basis, I pick my battles and weigh their import.

My mother, who I share intimate information with, needs to know I'm bisexual for me to maintain the same relationship I want to, with her.

My grandparents who need to know nothing of my sex life, and cannot possibly digest that, do not need to know this.

I don't think I have to be a walking PSA for SM. I went through that phase via bisexuality and queerness, and I'm really tired of being angry. I'm more of a whole bean coffee and Carrie Ann Moss person, and what I do in my bedroom and in my head is nobody's freaking business.

I'm done trying to convince Feminists "big F" that it's ok to like men, let alone want them to beat you and tell you what to do, if that's your thing. Most feminists (small f) of the last fifteen years or so are on the page I am on, anyway, things change.

I avoid going there and yet manage to find enough people who "get it" to be happy and fulfilled.

There are many people outside of my non-vanilla world who don't know that i am a submissive/masochist.

My reasoning for keeping it that way is along the lines of what Netzach said; i don't need to strap a neon sign to my back to let the world know what i do in my bedroom. i would think my sexual habits shouldn't color what someone thinks of me in the least unless we are about to be sexual with each other.

Then there is also the fear that the vanilla people in my life will never understand and that i might damage some relationships i hold dear. i know, i know, people should love you no matter what, but i also know the people in my life are human with the same failings, prejudices and shortcomings as anyone else. More importantly, i don't think it is that important to disclose my proclivities in this area until my submission is apparent to the naked eye and is reinforced with a submissive act that will require explanation.

As to addressing negative concepts of BDSM, i swing back and forth a bit. i get very angry when listening to the snide and misinformed comments made about BDSM. On the other hand, i couldn't care less especially if the people in question haven't made the effort to find out what this life is all about. i temper the anger with a little patience and bite my tongue.

Delurking, but hope I'm not intruding

For what it's worth, as a vanilla-type person, I'd like to say that efforts to correct misperceptions are appreciated by some of us who have needed our misperceptions corrected, even if not enough people take the time to acknowledge or thank those who have opened their minds. No, no one is ever obliged to be the ambassador for her/his lifestyle, and yes, each person's sex life is his/her own business.

But as a feminist who has recently had some very rich and rewarding with conversations with authors of bdsm stories at Lit, and yes, I'm pretty sure I blurted out several "eep!ack!" knee-jerk reactions to my perceptions of D/s, I've very much appreciated the time that various interlocutors have taken to explain.

So, yes, redressing widespread and widely ingrained prejudices is definitely a headache-and-a-half -- but hopefully, the task isn't completely thankless. Thought I'd just swing by and offer a round of "thanks!" to whoever needs it.

Cheers,
Arioso

D's mariposa said:

If the topic came up at work late one night I would probably be noncommital because the workplace is no place for a discussions of one's psyche or sexuality. It's innappropriate to be discussed there. Other than that, if the time and place is ok and the person I'm talking to is willing to consider what I have to say, (even if they disagree with me) then I'll go for it.

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Ah, that word inappropriate is so overused these days. In my work, sexuality , psyche, and the right to be free to be who you are was the cornerstone of the position and always a subject of discussion even in staff meetings. It's relevance was important to address to ensure a healthy approach to dealing with clients and unfortunately some of them left feeling worse than when they entered after seeing one of my co-workers due to their uninformed and misguided views and their need to judge already vulnerable clients on these.

I'm done trying to convince Feminists "big F" that it's ok to like men, let alone want them to beat you and tell you what to do, if that's your thing.

And no this is not my thing as to me this is far from being what a Feminist is, though I acknowledge many misguided women think it is. Fortunately my own values and the challenging guidance of a very committed Feminist lecturer ensured I did not fall into the man bashing mode which is so often mislabeled as feminism....actually most feminists love men and have stable, long term relationahips with them. Feminism is about choice above all else.....equality as in treating everyone equally, not the same, as it recognises everyone is different and should be appreciated for that. It also advocates informed choices.

Catalina

Haste does not pay...before I have a mountain of replies seizing my statement that feminism appreciates difference and therefore interpreting that as a reason to sanction BDSM critics as having a right to their opinion without challenge, feminism celebrates difference, but not the oppression of another or group because of their difference.

C

Re: There's the right to be wrong, too

maverickstud said:

Actually, Cat, everyone's entitled to their opinion even if it's NOT based on valid information. In fact, what constitutes "valid information" is often a matter of opinion - check out any discussion between creationist and evolutionist scientists.
You're right about speaking to people regardless of how they may react to what you have to say - initial antagonism can indeed end up as ultimate agreement. Plus, there's the fact that one certainly makes life more difficult than it has to be, if one decides what to say, or not say, based on the expected reaction of one's audience.
Right, then. Continue...

Cheers,
Jack

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A pretty good rebuttal of my stance on the subject, Maverick, though my view is coloured by a natural pessimism coupled with a vague dislike of people in general, whereas you seem to like 'em. To me at least though, the ultimate test of 'valid information' is whether or not it is upheld by current and testable facts. This is not to say that people don't have a right to believe whatever they want, it just means that not all beliefs have a factual basis.

catalina_francisco said:

Ah, that word inappropriate is so overused these days. In my work, sexuality , psyche, and the right to be free to be who you are was the cornerstone of the position and always a subject of discussion even in staff meetings. It's relevance was important to address to ensure a healthy approach to dealing with clients and unfortunately some of them left feeling worse than when they entered after seeing one of my co-workers due to their uninformed and misguided views and their need to judge already vulnerable clients on these.

Catalina

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Depends on the job though; I'm inferring from your response that you do some sort of social type work or counseling or something. In that case it is important. Especially the need to be non judgemental of your clients. In my job, it isn't. A happy well adjusted employee is a good thing; but we don't discuss our sex lives or our psyches. As far as working with each other goes, we have a very good atmosphere of acceptance. It's known at my workplace that I'm bisexual, and no one really cares as long as I'm not making out with someone in the bathroom! Again, it's not a case of whether or not being bisexual is right or wrong or evil or sinful; it's a question of appropriate workplace behavior.

Yes..when I hear someone make an incorrect statement about the BDSM lifestyle, I will state the facts to them. To me, it's no different than stating facts correcting misconceptions about ANY certain group of people. Of course there are people that would much rather believe the stereotype of certain groups than try to find out the truth but those are people who are really not worth your time. As stated by both incubus_dark and maverickstud, everyone's entitled to their opinions. If you choose to remain close minded and non-understanding, that's your problem.

:shrugs:

catalina_francisco said:

I was interested to know when confronted with someone discussing BDSM in a negative way if you feel compelled to correct their misconceptions, or keep silent? If you address the comments, in what way do you do it? I also realise the choice to do so may vary depending on the situation and people involved.

While I worked as a domestic violence counsellor in a feminist organisation, being originally hired for my expertise and reputation as a strong feminist, I was regularly exposed to conversations of fellow workers who mostly felt the only way anyone would be involved in BDSM as a submissive was if they were severely abused and felt there was no choice. They repeated claimed that no-one would willingly subject themselves to pain, amongst other things, not to mention enjoy it.

For a time I tried to offer another view in a casual way but it was not accepted. In the end I found it important to me as a person and feminist to point out the dynamics and freedom of choice as opposed to their belief it was a forced lifestyle. My information gave them another viewpoint, though not all were convinced.

Catalina

Click to expand...

The longer you post here, the more you'll start to realize your co-workers may in fact be right.

This site is chock-o-block with women who in fact have posted that they have been raped and/or abused, but they are interested in kink, BDSM and/or pornographic/promiscuous sex generally nonetheless.

I believe that the number of people involved in IRL BDSM who are not irrevokably fucked up in some way are few in number. I also believe that a plurality of the people here don't practice BDSM sex, but like talking about it from behind the mask of Internet anonymity as a fantasy or panty moistener.

There has been a constant tension in this Forum since it started about these very things...and while you say you're not interested in the politics and history of this Forum, this thread clearly illustrates that you ought to.

While I agree with Lance's assessment regarding the number of victims at bdsm and Lit in general, I am not one of them.

I have never been raped. I had a wonderful childhood, the only daughter and the baby, I was very loved and spoiled. I adore my dad. He never abused me or beat me. I have no "issues" with men. I like them a great deal.

I think the behavior of people will "out" their past history. And I have witnessed certain behaviors by some women that certainly fit in the victim profile.

I happen to like Bad Boys... Bad Boys who want to spank me and dominate me. That is just how I am.

A Desert Rose said:

While I agree with Lance's assessment regarding the number of victims at bdsm and Lit in general, I am not one of them.

I have never been raped. I had a wonderful childhood, the only daughter and the baby, I was very loved and spoiled. I adore my dad. He never abused me or beat me. I have no "issues" with men. I like them a great deal.

I think the behavior of people will "out" their past history. And I have witnessed certain behaviors by some women that certainly fit in the victim profile.

I happen to like Bad Boys... Bad Boys who want to spank me and dominate me. That is just how I am.

Click to expand...

As so many of us do......but there are always the ones who love to jump to conclusions which are so obvious common sense should tell them they are the exception rather than the rule. But if it makes them feel better about themselves I guess we should try to empathise and show some compassion.

Catalina