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The Geneva Conventions

Sandia

Sandia

Very Experienced
Joined
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Art. 13. Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention. In particular, no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest.

Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity.

Measures of reprisal against prisoners of war are prohibited.
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Rumsfield says pictures of American soldiers captured by Iraq violate the Geneva convention.

http://wwwi.reuters.com/images/amdf239964.jpg

Should the US also refrain from showing pictures of Iraqi POWs?

http://a1022.g.akamai.net/f/1022/8153/5m/images.chicagotribune.com/media/photo/2003-03/7088568.jpg


http://a1022.g.akamai.net/f/1022/8153/5m/images.chicagotribune.com/media/photo/2003-03/7087934.jpg
 
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I haven't seen the Al Jazeera video - American outlets are declining to show it.

But the descriptions don't say the soldiers are being tortured.
 
I think the Secretary was protesting the televised interrogation.
 
Emerald_eyed said:
pictures of the dead showed signs of obvios torture
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Iraqi television filmed the bodies and prisoners, saying they fell into Iraqi hands during a battle at the town of Souq al-Shuyukh, southeast of Nassiriya where U.S. forces have encountered stiff resistance.

The video showed two rooms each containing what appeared to be two separate groups of four bodies in uniform, at least two with wounds to the head and some lying in pools of blood.
Click to expand...

http://asia.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=2432174

Where did you see the pictures?
 
KillerMuffin said:
Is Iraq even a signatory of the Geneva Conventions?
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I don't know. The American government is saying they're going to comply with the Geneva Convention, and they expect Iraq to do the same.
 
According to this link

http://www.icao.int/icao/en/leb/Genev.htm

Iraq is a signatory. I don't know how up-to-date this is; trying to find the most recent one.

edited to say: on a second look at that page, it looks like Iraq might not have actually signed.

edited again to say: I'm stupid. I didn't read the friggin title correctly. This says something about aircraft for goodness sake. Damn I'm dumb! lol
 
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patient1 said:
I think the Secretary was protesting the televised interrogation.
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Art. 17. Every prisoner of war, when questioned on the subject, is bound to give only his surname, first names and rank, date of birth, and army, regimental, personal or serial number, or failing this, equivalent information.

If he wilfully infringes this rule, he may render himself liable to a restriction of the privileges accorded to his rank or status.

***

No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind.

***

The questioning of prisoners of war shall be carried out in a language which they understand.
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The Convention implies a prisoner can be questioned, but not compelled to answer.

http://www.globalissuesgroup.com/geneva/convention3.html#13
 
No. This article implies Iraq is a signatory.

Bush says "people who mistreat (POWs) will be treated as war criminals."
 
Emerald_eyed said:
pictures of the dead showed signs of obvios torture
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Most dead bodies in a war zone tend to look pretty bad - it's a violent way to go, and projectiles do a hell of a lot of tissue damage. You'd need to actually do an autopsy to distinguish wounds caused by torture, from wounds caused by dying a violent death in battle.

* * * * *

Hi Sandia, long time no see :)

I don't see how televising the POW's questionings is breaching the Convention - it’s not a particularly noble thing to do, but wars haven't been noble since the first Crusade, so what the hell. I don't see any evidence that any POW's are being mistreated.

Personally, if I were the family member of one of the POW's, I'd be pretty damn relieved to see my relative on Iraqi TV - at least that way I'd know that they were alive and healthy. Plus there's the added advantage that the Iraqi government has tied its own hands by showing them on TV - it can't torture them for info, and then kill them to prevent them from talking about what was done to them. By broadcasting their pictures Iraq has forced itself to treat them well - it’s any POW's that don't show up on Iraqi TV that I'd be afraid for.
 
Both are technical violations but the Iraqi violations are much more flagrant.
 
Okay, but by going into this war without United Nations sanctions, does the U.S violate, in any way, their right to cite the Geneva Convention?

Serious question, not meant to be inflammatory. I'm curious.
 
Lady G
Probably. My guess is someone else will have done a better job of answering this by the time I get done. The so-called rules of war referred to have only been around in present form for about 50 years, but even before that there were rules of war. Some countries pay attention, some don't and some that generally do don't always. It would appear from the wording it wouldn't require UN sanction of a war to invoke the Geneva Convention. Someone writing earlier is right though, although it may very well have been an execution style killing of prisoners, death by gunfire is never pretty. Go to your local courthouse and find a file that involved a murder case and look at the pictures that were probably thrown into evidence. Pretty messy and grim stuff even with a small handgun.
 
crysede said:
Most dead bodies in a war zone tend to look pretty bad - it's a violent way to go, and projectiles do a hell of a lot of tissue damage. You'd need to actually do an autopsy to distinguish wounds caused by torture, from wounds caused by dying a violent death in battle.

* * * * *

Hi Sandia, long time no see :)

I don't see how televising the POW's questionings is breaching the Convention - it’s not a particularly noble thing to do, but wars haven't been noble since the first Crusade, so what the hell. I don't see any evidence that any POW's are being mistreated.

Personally, if I were the family member of one of the POW's, I'd be pretty damn relieved to see my relative on Iraqi TV - at least that way I'd know that they were alive and healthy. Plus there's the added advantage that the Iraqi government has tied its own hands by showing them on TV - it can't torture them for info, and then kill them to prevent them from talking about what was done to them. By broadcasting their pictures Iraq has forced itself to treat them well - it’s any POW's that don't show up on Iraqi TV that I'd be afraid for.
Click to expand...

I can't say much about the video, because I haven't seen it. I suspect American TV isn't showing it because it has dead Americans. I imagine when they wrote "public display" they meant show trials and things like parades with signs around their necks.

Good to see you, Crysede. You're needed around here.
 
Sandia said:
I haven't seen the Al Jazeera video - American outlets are declining to show it.

But the descriptions don't say the soldiers are being tortured.
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I believe that some were exuctued. Is that enough torture for you?
 
bknight2602 said:
I believe that some were exuctued. Is that enough torture for you?
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How could you tell they were executed from the pictures? Dying from bullet wounds wouldn't exactly be unusual in a war.
 
crysede said:
How could you tell they were executed from the pictures? Dying from bullet wounds wouldn't exactly be unusual in a war.
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The Iraqui spokesman said they "fell into the hands" of Iraq. That implies to me that they were alive when they did so. Why else have them strewn in a room with living prisoners and guards? I doubt they carried them there for the fun of it.

Two of the dead have obvious head wounds.
One of the dead has a wound to the groin.

No one is saying they were executed, but certainly, it wouldn't be a surprise.

I haven't seen the pics, but have read several articles on it and each one says the same thing.
 
crysede said:
How could you tell they were executed from the pictures? Dying from bullet wounds wouldn't exactly be unusual in a war.
Click to expand...

It is far different when you are a captive. Same result yes, but the situation is very different.
 
KillerMuffin said:
Is Iraq even a signatory of the Geneva Conventions?
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I'm not sure if Iraqb is a signatory, yet I read that Iraqs Defense Minister Sultan Hashim Ahmed stated POW's would be treated in accordance with the Convention.
 
bknight2602 said:
It is far different when you are a captive. Same result yes, but the situation is very different.
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Yes, but that's what I'm saying - how can you tell from a picture of dead soldiers that they were killed while captive, and not while fighting? It's not like it's uncommon for soldiers to die while fighting.
 
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