Rant: When your own readers disgust you...

My "stories" don't require any strenuous brain activity to get through. In fact you don't even need to know how to READ, as mostly are audios, so more often than not the feedback I get is from happy, horny males who want to jot down a quick one sentence note saying hi to me before falling asleep. I have no problem with this, in fact, most of my feedback email just make me smile and feel incredibly grateful that they took the time out to acknowledge me.

As for the trolls. LOL lucky for me, mine tend to post publicly rather than send me private email so everyone gets to join in with the fun there.

But today, I got an email that made me shudder with disgust, and somewhat even question continuing to post sex stories altogether.

But i was conflicted. I believe in freedom of speech...and expression and ESPECIALLY, thought. But you can't help but think...maybe if someone's fantasies hadn't been allowed to be indulged in mentally...maybe it would've never have built to an extent that they were compelled to indulge in it in real life.

I know. I'm rambling.
I thought i could present my dilemma without being specific, but i'm not a writer.

The email in question asked for a fantasy involving an intercourse scene while watching young children play on the playground. And went into detail describing the effect it would have on him.


I have no disillusions when it comes to the amount of pedophilic behaviour and activity out there...but it would horrfy me to think that i, even inadvertently contribute to it. And just the idea that a reader of mine would harbour these fantasies, made me physically ill.

so what do i do?

do just accept that on a site like lit that can be accessed by anyone, i can not pick and choose my readers?

am i being irresponsible, when i feature legal, but just barely, characters...and inadvertently fuel these pedophilic fantasies that I, personally, find abhorrent?

i don't know. i don't know.

I'm at a loss for words, AP. I really wish that I had something helpful to say, but I'm stunned. The Internet is very large and is filled with many darkened corners, the perfect place for people to indulge in their most repressed and taboo fantasies which otherwise would never see the light of day.

Asia, the best advice I can offer is some words from Rod Serling.

A little background. You may or may not know of Mr. Serling, but he was the force behind The Twilight Zone. After that show was cancelled, he had a successful career as a TV screenwriter.

One of his movies was called Death at 30,000 Feet. It was about a blackmailer who put a bomb on a jetliner. The bomb had a pressure trigger. It didn't arm until the plane went over 5,000 feet, and would explode if it dropped below that height. The movie was rather successful.

But there were copycats. No real threats, but several bad scares.

Mr Serling was quite distraught about this. He agonised for a long time. Finally, he came to a conclusion he could live with. That solution was summed up in the words, "I am responsible to the public, not for the public."

It's the same thing here, asia. You did nothing irresponsible. The person you mentioned did.

In fact, from how you described him, I suspect he's so ill, just about anything will trigger his fantasies. So it has little to do with you.

rgraham666 said:

Finally, he came to a conclusion he could live with. That solution was summed up in the words, "I am responsible to the public, not for the public."

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That is so true.

Working in erotica, sooner or later you're going to attract unsavory characters. If you advertise that you're a woman it's going to be even worse, because there are men who get off on trying to shock and disgust you, kind of like online flashers.

I'm pretty sure that's what this guy was about. He's getting off thinking about your humiliation and guilt and disgust. Don't give him what he wants.

Rob gave you the best answer, even though I think it's more basic than Sterling's summation. You find the answer you can live with.

Doc is probably right, you're just the victim of a troll using a different approach.

Even if he is wrong, there is no contrivance avialable to an author to keep someone from reading your work and substituting characters in their minds. Part of any work of fiction is the imagination of the reader.

I have, on many occasons had readers take something from the work I did not intend or even contemplate when I wrote it. In essence then, every time you post, you post not one story, but hundreds or even thousands. There's the one you wrote and the one the reader reads, and every reader will read it slightly differently, will seee slightly different characters and will read into their actions responses based on his own experience and desire.

You cannot hold yourself responsible for the readers imagination or his/her actions. In the case of a pedophile, he isn't really even reading the story you wrote.

I adore my fans and I try to incorporate their suggestions, ideas, and turn ons when they volunteer them. In the end though, the story I post is mine. the story they read is their's. The two will not be identical, nor even neccissarily that similar.

I dealt with a problem like, but unlike this not too long ago. And I found my own comfort level. And I'm a better writer for it. Find your own peace and you'll find yourself a better writer for it too.

One of his movies was called Death at 30,000 Feet. It was about a blackmailer who put a bomb on a jetliner. The bomb had a pressure trigger. It didn't arm until the plane went over 5,000 feet, and would explode if it dropped below that height. The movie was rather successful.

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total aside: I never saw that one!!! Huh... 'course, I saw "Speed"... apparently they borrowed the concept, changed the vehicle...

***

there's an aspect of this that no one has touched on, and I'll be the unpopular and heinous one to voice it...

just because someone has a fantasy about sex with children doesn't make them a pedophile... there is a vast difference between fantasy and reality...

all these Japanese "little girl" cartoons (chibi? I can't remember their names, someone posted her about them a while back) play into that fantasy...

schoolgirls sell their underwear in vending machines in Japan, for pete's sake...

but I don't think anyone should be persecuted for a fantasy... my (albiet biased) psychological bent makes me cringe when I hear someone condemning someone else for having a fantasy, whether that fantasy is about having sex with an alien, a horse, or a child... my contention would be that psyche is using that fantasy for a reason...

and this in no way condones pedophilia... the differentiation is between action and fantasy...

and of course, we don't have to agree with or like someone else's fantasy, either... to each his/her own.

Hmmm. I take your point, Selena, but I would add this. Our thoughts and our habits of thought become part of our character. They do establish patterns of thinking, and patterns of thinking can eventually effect behavior. That someone has had the passing thought of sex with children does not itself make me think that person dangerous or immoral. However, I would have grave reservations about someone who lingered over, cherished, and repeatedly incited him or herself to those thoughts - just as I would about someone who habitually fantasized about murder, rape, or self-mutilation. There are ideas and behaviors that do not need to be encouraged, either by others or indeed by ourselves.

Shanglan

ETA: Oops, meant to add this -

my contention would be that psyche is using that fantasy for a reason...

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I think that that is an excellent point. Sometimes the mind is speaking to itself symbolically, and I think that's worth considering when examining one's impulses, dreams, and thought images. I will say, though, that there are people for whom the representations are not symbolic. For either group, I'd suggest that repeating the fantasized image without examination is not particularly helpful; in the former it discourages the analysis that might yield deeper understanding, while in the latter it can reduce mental resistance and make the topic appear more acceptable.

You could report it to Laurel by PM if there is any indication of the source.

Og

That someone has had the passing thought of sex with children does not itself make me think that person dangerous or immoral. However, I would have grave reservations about someone who lingered over, cherished, and repeatedly incited him or herself to those thoughts - just as I would about someone who habitually fantasized about murder, rape, or self-mutilation. There are ideas and behaviors that do not need to be encouraged, either by others or indeed by ourselves.

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the minute you start "having grave reservations" about someone for their fantasies, you start down a slippery slope... Fantasies of rape, murder, and self-mutilation are a lot more common than you would believe... so are fantasies about children... I would argue that it's our repression of the fantasy that actually tends to literalize it into action... not the other way 'round...

we have the fantasies we do for a reason... we are drawn to them because there is something we need from them... the hope is that we don't get "stuck" in them... or literalize them... both of which CAN happen, I'm not denying it... The hope is that our fantasies give our psyche a way to move through something...

and I certainly agree with you than someone who fantasizes about sex with children, puts him/herself in situations alone with children, etc. is heading down their own slippery slope...

but I also hesitate to pass judgment on someone for a fantasy... it isn't the fantasy that is immoral... it is the action...

SelenaKittyn said:

t
but I don't think anyone should be persecuted for a fantasy... my (albiet biased) psychological bent makes me cringe when I hear someone condemning someone else for having a fantasy, whether that fantasy is about having sex with an alien, a horse, or a child... my contention would be that psyche is using that fantasy for a reason...

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I don't agree. There are plenty of fantasies out there that I find offensisve and pretty distrubing, and I know what it's like to feel that you're contributing fodder for these people. It doesn't feel good.

I wrote a mild BDSM piece for another site that was pretty popular, and someone wrote me suggesting that I change things so that I crush the heroine's tits in a vice and fuck her with a burning log to teach her to be a whore and submit to any man who wants her, and it gave me the horrors.

It truly bothers me to think I might be feeding people like this, or even giving them characters to torture in their own imaginations. Silly as it sounds, I care about my characters and I resent people hurting them, even in their daydreams.

SelenaKittyn said:

the minute you start "having grave reservations" about someone for their fantasies, you start down a slippery slope... Fantasies of rape, murder, and self-mutilation are a lot more common than you would believe... so are fantasies about children... I would argue that it's our repression of the fantasy that actually tends to literalize it into action... not the other way 'round...

we have the fantasies we do for a reason... we are drawn to them because there is something we need from them... the hope is that we don't get "stuck" in them... or literalize them... both of which CAN happen, I'm not denying it... The hope is that our fantasies give our psyche a way to move through something...

and I certainly agree with you than someone who fantasizes about sex with children, puts him/herself in situations alone with children, etc. is heading down their own slippery slope...

but I also hesitate to pass judgment on someone for a fantasy... it isn't the fantasy that is immoral... it is the action...

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Selena, while I admire your views and strong will, I must submit my opinion that yours is only based on a limited knowledge of people (as opposed to one gained by observing many people).

Granted, I came from a different planet than you, I have found the opposite to be the case. The more a fantasy is indulged, the more powerful the draw to do more than fantasize. I have seen this in me in little ways (especially when I was 15 and dreaming of sex - it did not take me long for those dreams to shrug off any parental warnings of hellfire, etc), and I have seen it in most of the guys around me (and in stories we see this often, so if art imitates life, then it stands to reason that the more people think about something, the easier it is to find justifications for doing it). That is the slippery slope, imo.

Stating clearly to yourself with moral conviction "this is not right" means it is less likely you are to find justifications to act upon. Only the mentally fucked (who would end up doing it anyway) would not respond to personal sensorship based on their convictions.

Disclaimer: Though many might try to read religion or politics or some such bullshit into this opinion, I ask that you to refrain from drawing the entirely wrong conclusions.

dr_mabeuse said:

I don't agree. There are plenty of fantasies out there that I find offensisve and pretty distrubing, and I know what it's like to feel that you're contributing fodder for these people. It doesn't feel good.

I wrote a mild BDSM piece for another site that was pretty popular, and someone wrote me suggesting that I change things so that I crush the heroine's tits in a vice and fuck her with a burning log to teach her to be a whore and submit to any man who wants her, and it gave me the horrors.

It truly bothers me to think I might be feeding people like this, or even giving them characters to torture in their own imaginations. Silly as it sounds, I care about my characters and I resent people hurting them, even in their daydreams.

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I fully agree. I often write mild bondage senes into my works and the feedback sugesting I make the character into a "painslut" unnerves me.

SelenaKittyn said:

the minute you start "having grave reservations" about someone for their fantasies, you start down a slippery slope... Fantasies of rape, murder, and self-mutilation are a lot more common than you would believe... so are fantasies about children... I would argue that it's our repression of the fantasy that actually tends to literalize it into action... not the other way 'round...

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I'm familiar with the last theory, but everything I'd read from people on both sides of the "have acted / haven't acted" divide suggests to me that it is not accurate. Mental habits are much like any other habits; once we stop examining them, we fall more and more easily into them, and more easily lose track of where they are going. One of the most common shared factors I've seen in discussions of persons who have committed sex crimes and obsessive violent crimes is repeated, obsessive fantasies about performing the act. One also sees a very common pattern of behaviors gradually increasing in severity - fantasy, fantasy plus expression (written, drawn, or discussed), fantasy plus symbolic behavior with objects (photographs, dolls, etc.), fatansy plus symbolic behavior with living creatures (symbolic choking of partner, attacks on animals, etc.) It's a common progression; few people leap right in at the deep end. It's a process of gradually acclimatizing oneself to one's impulses and exciting them to a level at which one is able to break the social barriers against the behavior. To be clear, I don't think that everyone will go that way, or even that most will. But lingering over and cherishing the mental image is the first step, and one that offers no benefit while opening substantial risk.

As for whether I'm starting down a slippery slope for having reservations about someone else's fantasies - it's not clear to me what slope you envision or what you believe is at the bottom of it. I should, however, point out that we may disagree on some key assumptions. I don't believe that it's necessary for me to accept all methods of living as equally valid, useful, or moral.

we have the fantasies we do for a reason... we are drawn to them because there is something we need from them... the hope is that we don't get "stuck" in them... or literalize them... both of which CAN happen, I'm not denying it... The hope is that our fantasies give our psyche a way to move through something...

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I agree that this is true in some cases. When I look at poor Ernest Dowson, for instance, I think that his obsession with a very young girl was probably less about pedophilia and more about a yearning for something pure and innocent and untouched in his miserable and depressed life. However, there are also people whose desires are not symbolic and are not a phase or symptom of a different problem. Some are mentally ill; they cannot control their impulses. Others, and one hates to acknowledge this, but it is true, simply don't give a damn about anyone else and wish to indulge themselves.

The key point with all of these, I think, is that none of them are helped simply by lingering over and repeating the fantasy. The first need some therapy and help identifying the real issues; the second probably need to be isolated from children and helped to the extent that we can help them - while, by their nature, also needing to be watched very carefully. The last belong in prison. But none of them will get what s/he needs through simply lingering over that fantasy and repeating it more eagerly each time.

but I also hesitate to pass judgment on someone for a fantasy... it isn't the fantasy that is immoral... it is the action...

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My point - and I think this very interesting, by the way, in light of our body/spirit discussion - is that this enacts an artificial barrier between fantasy and action. Thinking and fantasizing is a type of action, and it's one that shapes other crucial actions, like the creation of our mental habits and our attitudes toward others. Of course, to some extent this discussion is academic; I can't judge someone for what s/he is thinking, because I don't know, and once I do know it's because that person has gone beyond merely thinking it. But I'm comfortable with the idea that there are thoughts that are bad, and that good people do not encourage. I don't blame anyone for having thoughts or impulses beyond his or her control; ironically, I feel a great deal of pain and ultimately sympathy for an erstwhile friend who is now in prison for sex offenses related to minors - and who, after begging the police to incarcerate him before he committed his last offense, drank drain cleaner and cut his wrists when they came to arrest him for it. I honestly believe that he could not control himself, and that he hated what he had become. However, there is a difference between thoughts and impulses we cannot control and those we choose to indulge. To the degree that we encourage ourselves to cherish and enjoy fantasies of grossly immoral behavior, we shape ourselves into less moral people.

Shanglan

Let's keep in mind how peopel react to the fantasy. I know I've had some inappropriate things flit through my head from time to time. It's inevitable. Someone talks about rape or pedophilia or the like, and the listener can't help but have some kind of image pop up in their brain. I don't know if this is whay anyone else has been talking about, but it happens. The big thing is that even when I think such things, I don't dwell on them. I know them as being wrong and move on. Is this what people are talking about when they say fantasy, or are they talking about something more elaborate and actually arousing? Just checking.

It's like when I saw an mpeg of a four-hundred plus pound woman dancing "erotically" in a bikini. I don't want the image in my head . . . just time to time, it shows up.

Kev H said:

Stating clearly to yourself with moral conviction "this is not right" means it is less likely you are to find justifications to act upon. Only the mentally fucked (who would end up doing it anyway) would not respond to personal sensorship based on their convictions.

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I very much agree, and I also agree that this does not necessarily have to be rooted in religious strictures. Anything that contradicts one's own system of ethics makes a poor fantasy, and asserting that mental level of self-discipline is one of the ways that we form our characters.

Evil Alpaca said:

Let's keep in mind how peopel react to the fantasy. I know I've had some inappropriate things flit through my head from time to time. It's inevitable. Someone talks about rape or pedophilia or the like, and the listener can't help but have some kind of image pop up in their brain. I don't know if this is whay anyone else has been talking about, but it happens. The big thing is that even when I think such things, I don't dwell on them. I know them as being wrong and move on. Is this what people are talking about when they say fantasy, or are they talking about something more elaborate and actually arousing? Just checking.

It's like when I saw an mpeg of a four-hundred plus pound woman dancing "erotically" in a bikini. I don't want the image in my head . . . just time to time, it shows up.

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Yes, excellent point. I mean dwelling at length upon the image, and deliberately. I was trying to say that I think that a substantially different thing to just having it pop up now and then.

Selena, while I admire your views and strong will, I must submit my opinion that yours is only based on a limited knowledge of people (as opposed to one gained by observing many people).

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I don't know if you'd consider years working as a psychologist as limited knowledge of people... <shrug>

I have found the opposite to be the case. The more a fantasy is indulged, the more powerful the draw to do more than fantasize.

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As I said, it's not the popular opinion... but it's actually the view that the fantasy itself is a slippery slope that creates the repression in the first place... it's the limiting of psyche, the split, the cutting off (collectively) that moves the thing from fantasy to action... it's no accident that this (yours) is the prevalent view about fantasy as pertaining to pedophilia and there has never been more sexual abuse of children...

the more you repress something, the more power you give it...

as I said, it doesn't mean you have to agree with the fantasy, or even like it... doc and colly (and asian princess) are disturbed by the idea of taking their own fantasies in their stories further than they are comfortable with... makes sense... their psyches don't push them into those fantasies... other people are different...

whatever fantasies we are having are asking something of us... it doesn't mean we have to go out and DO them... in fact, it occurs in fantasy not because we want to do it, but because it is symobolic of something moving into and through us... there can be a lot worked out through the realm of fantasy that never has to be literalized...

and, having the fantasy doesn't make us more prone to doing them either, actually... that's an unfortunate misnomer.

One also sees a very common pattern of behaviors gradually increasing in severity - fantasy, fantasy plus expression (written, drawn, or discussed), fantasy plus symbolic behavior with objects (photographs, dolls, etc.), fatansy plus symbolic behavior with living creatures (symbolic choking of partner, attacks on animals, etc.) It's a common progression; few people leap right in at the deep end. It's a process of gradually acclimatizing oneself to one's impulses and exciting them to a level at which one is able to break the social barriers against the behavior.

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All true, Shang... this is exactly how it works... but if the fantasy is prevalent in one's psyche, it is NOT going to stop simply by sheer force of will... it's only through dealing with and working with the fantasy that you decrease its power and hold... its obsessive nature... and the more you repress the fantasy itself, the more likely it is to move into these other realms of expression...

But I'm comfortable with the idea that there are thoughts that are bad, and that good people do not encourage.

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eek!

this is the slippery slope I'm talking about... you start passing judgment on people's thoughts, feelings, fantasies, labeling one thing good, another bad... it leaves you in a superior moral position, of course...

I think it was Cicero who said: "Nothing human is foreign to me..."

Le sigh.

I would say we are all making a perilous jump when we read something into a person's fantasy. All people deal with fantasy differently and most of us live, to greater or lesser degree, in our own fantasy world. It's very difficult to establish just how much of any one persons fantasy life has a degree of translation to their real world actions.

One example would be a fantasy world, where the free and unfettered market can solve all ills and is immune to corropution or abuse. Equally as fantastic is the world where people are basically good and , if allowed, would do only good. neither bears much resemblance to the world I live in, but how much of my world is simply my fantasy?

In the fantasy stated here, sex near a playground, with children present, most of us got the shivers. But you could turn it around just as easily. A loving wife, who very much wants to be a mother, having sex in an upstairs bedroom, with her loving husbad, in the hope their act will produce a child they can both lavish affection on, might not produce the same shivers. The sound of children playing, might actually add something to the innately life affirming act. Almost foreshadowing, if you will. Especially if later in the story she does concieve and they have the child they both so desperatly wanted.

Shang's reservations then, are when the fantasy is innately unwholesome and is dewlt upon incessantly. Selena would consider exploring the fantasy aspect, in fantasy only as healthy. The could both be right. The trick is us, standing outside, trying to determine what is a symptom of a healthy fantasy life and what is a warning sign of an underlying problem. And that's really the limiting factor, because only the person harboring the fantasy knows it's full parameters.

Le sigh.

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LOL

You're right, Ms Aurora, it's too heady for a Saturday afternoon...

sun's bright anyway, even if it's freezing out there...

asian_princess said:

My "stories" don't require any strenuous brain activity to get through. In fact you don't even need to know how to READ, as mostly are audios, so more often than not the feedback I get is from happy, horny males who want to jot down a quick one sentence note saying hi to me before falling asleep. I have no problem with this, in fact, most of my feedback email just make me smile and feel incredibly grateful that they took the time out to acknowledge me.

As for the trolls. LOL lucky for me, mine tend to post publicly rather than send me private email so everyone gets to join in with the fun there.

But today, I got an email that made me shudder with disgust, and somewhat even question continuing to post sex stories altogether.

But i was conflicted. I believe in freedom of speech...and expression and ESPECIALLY, thought. But you can't help but think...maybe if someone's fantasies hadn't been allowed to be indulged in mentally...maybe it would've never have built to an extent that they were compelled to indulge in it in real life.

I know. I'm rambling.
I thought i could present my dilemma without being specific, but i'm not a writer.

The email in question asked for a fantasy involving an intercourse scene while watching young children play on the playground. And went into detail describing the effect it would have on him.


I have no disillusions when it comes to the amount of pedophilic behaviour and activity out there...but it would horrfy me to think that i, even inadvertently contribute to it. And just the idea that a reader of mine would harbour these fantasies, made me physically ill.

so what do i do?

do just accept that on a site like lit that can be accessed by anyone, i can not pick and choose my readers?

am i being irresponsible, when i feature legal, but just barely, characters...and inadvertently fuel these pedophilic fantasies that I, personally, find abhorrent?

i don't know. i don't know.

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It's a difficult issue, but I don't think the responsibility is ultimately yours. A pedophile can get off on the underwear ads in the K-Mart flier. Or, as in the case, watching children do what they normally do. There is simply no way to remove all the possible points of fixation for what is essentially an internal drive. Should we keep children from wearing bathing suits at the beach? Dress them in chadors until they are 18? It's just not going to work.
On the other hand, there's a lot of pretty deliberate adult/child crossover in our culture- from kiddie pageants to mainstream fashion, which tends to sexualize children. I happen to see this kind of thing, which is widely accepted, as more dangerous to children than pornography (excepting, of course, anything in which actual children are involved)- because it's so pervasive.
So, writing about 'barely legal' characters comes down squarely on both sides of this issue- it's part of the pervasive culture of youthful sexuality, and there's simply no way to desexualize 18 year olds. Maybe the thing to do is to try to rethink what eroticism and erotic writing is/should be about. I don't have a perfect theory about this, but I see one function as making people confront the contradictions between their desires and their revulsions, and to examine the role of culture in this. Maybe eventually we'll come up with more sensible and healthy approaches to these issues.

And that's really the limiting factor, because only the person harboring the fantasy knows it's full parameters.

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beautifully stated, Colleen... the whole post, not just what I quoted...

am i being irresponsible, when i feature legal, but just barely, characters...and inadvertently fuel these pedophilic fantasies that I, personally, find abhorrent?

i don't know. i don't know.[/QUOTE]


I don't pretend to have the definitive answer, but I'll offer two thoughts:

There is a huge difference between "legal, but just barely" and pedophillia.

Do fantasies or behaviors ever really need external fuel, or is "he/she made me do it" is just a thinly veneered version of the age-old "Satan possessed me" alibi--an excuse people use to evade their personal responsibility and accountability for their own choices/compulsions/actions? Does anyone really believe that Ted Bundy would have been a wonderful human being if he hadn't read paperback porn?

SelenaKittyn said:

LOL

You're right, Ms Aurora, it's too heady for a Saturday afternoon...

sun's bright anyway, even if it's freezing out there...

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'Tis a winter wonderland on my mountain. (I post an AV as soon as my camera batteries recharge.)

I am happy we can agree to disagree, because your experience is bafflingly different compared to mine. Maybe we are indeed from different planets...well met Earthling.

Even better than an AV: