My suggestions for writing in second person

"You take her by her waist and kiss her softly on the lips. You run your hands down her smooth, skinny body. Her breasts are humongous. You widen your eyes at the sight of them. 'Damn, what a smokin body,' you think to yourself. You put your hand on her thigh and would love to see what's underneath the girl's skirt. You slip your hands underneath and are shocked to find that she has no panties. "

There are two inherent problems to writing in the second person: variety of language and cognitive dissonance.

It can be difficult to write well in second person because one doesn't have the luxury of options for describing the main character, unlike the third person viewpoint. No, the only choice is "you," and this does a lot to limit avenues of expression. I can't think of a way around this lackluster pronoun, but there are ways to keep the prose more interesting, rather than starting every sentence with "you" and subsequently describing the action. One can describe some part of the main character, for example, the hands: "You run your hands down..." can become "Your hands run down..." It isn't a big difference, but it offers some variety, even if paltry.

Also try turning things like: "You would love to see what's underneath the girl's skirt. You slip your hands underneath and are shocked to find that she has no panties..." into "Slipping your curious hand underneath her skirt, you discover the girl's surprising lack of panties."

The other problem I see is the disconnect formed between the reader and the character in the story, who should be one in the same. When I read " 'Damn, what a smokin body,' you think to yourself," "You...would love to see what's underneath the girl's skirt," or " You...are shocked to find that she has no panties," I feel like I'm being told what to think. I feel manipulated. I don't necessarily like skinny women with huge tits, I don't necessarily want to see what's underneath this girl's skirt, and even if I do, I might not necessarily be shocked at my beau's neglect to wear undergarments. There's a dissonance between what I really think and what I read.

I've been very guilty of this problem with my own Chyoo in its earliest incarnations. I've been slowly trying to fix the problem, and I think that other writers should at least be aware of it. If one is trying to describe what's going on in the head, then one should simply state these goings on as fact:

" 'Damn, what a smokin body,' you think to yourself" to "Her body is smokin" or "She has a smokin body." (A more telling example of this: when you see a hot girl walking down the street, do you tell yourself "That girl is hot, I think," or just "That girl is hot?")

"You...would love to see what's underneath the girl's skirt" to "It would be great to see what's underneath the girl's skirt."

" You...are shocked to find that she has no panties" to "Shockingly, she has no panties."

You can even turn sentences into questions: "You...would love to see what's underneath the girl's skirt" to "What's underneath the girl's skirt?"

Variations like these not only help broaden the writing, but help to take away this disconnect. Readers will be more easily drawn in and sympathize more completely with the main character.

I try to give my readers a well-told tale and a lot of freedom. I mix up the sentences and I only explain the character's thoughts when I can infer them from the choice made by the reader. I must admit, though, that I have at least one GLARING example of me breaking this thought rule. It's harder writing this way, but ultimately more rewarding, both for the readers, and the writer.

Nice

You make an excellent point. I have always tried to avoid the 2nd person as it seems more shallow some how. You have pointed out some excellent techniques to give 2nd person stories more depth. I will try to put your ideas to use in my own writing.

Thanks for taking the time to think it through.

Thank you, jakelyon.

Shallow, eh? I think that the second-person has tremendous potential to produce intriguing and mysterious tales, the very reason being the limited scope of the second-person. If truly writing in second person, you can only describe what the main character sees and knows. That means that the reader must discover things as the tale unfolds. This goes hand-in-hand with not telling the reader what to think so often. If the story arcs in a truly remarkable fashion, then I am going to be surprised whether you tell me I am or not. The second-person should excel at stories like these.

I also think that second-person stories should be the most open-ended. They should emphasize having lots of options for the reader to choose, since we cannot really say what the reader would do were she in the situation described.

Shallow? Perhaps, but there's no reason they should have to be.

It's a good point you raise about this writing style, amalgam. I didn't realize the problems until you brought them up.

I find second person stories to be more inclusive like interactive fiction or choose your own adventures. That's probably why I wrote my story in that perspective. Instead of first person where someone else is telling you a story that happened to them, it's the story revealing itself to you as it happens, so it is really your story. As to the common problems with the point of view, yeah, I admit that I let some of those things happen in my story. I find a lot of writers submitting new threads with thoughts quoted and it kind of detracts from the reader's submersion into the story. I still let it slide though because I'd hate to edit it on them in case there was a purpose to that writing style.

Personally, I try to keep personal thoughts in second person as direct statements. Instead of you thinking to yourself, "Damn that girl's hot!" It's simply stated: Damn, that girl's hot. That way it seems like the whole story is told through a stream of consciousness.

I've always preffered writing in 1st or 3rd person perspective than second. Ironically of course I find half the stories I'm interested in contributing are second person.

I definately feel that the third person is easier to write in.

What about fourth person?

haha, yah, what about it?

What WOULD fourth person perspective be? A guy who knew guy who knew this story about this other guy's sister?

An opposing view...

I agree with you to a point, but I think 2nd person POV can actually be as broad (or at least nearly) as 3rd person.

You correctly note that if 2nd person POV describes "your" experience, it can't properly suggest what's happening in your mind. So that is more limiting than 3rd person, obviously, since the author cannot presume to know.

BUT... a 2nd person POV is often not intended to be you, the person sitting at the keyboard. It's meant to be a fictional character through whose eyes you see the adventures. So I think it is appropriate to put thoughts in this character's head, since he or she is the creation of the author.

For me, a 2nd person POV is a more immersive experience than the 3rd person, ie. "You are attracted to her" vs "John is attracted to her." And I understand that when I take the role of "John", I step into his shoes, as it were. It's like role-playing.

So, following from the earlier example, "You are surprised Jane isn't wearing underwear." Maybe you at the keyboard isn't, but the author presents you with a situation in which for whatever reason John expects Jane to be wearing underwear.

I see this having the added benefit of allowing a glimpse into the mind of a potentially sick fellow you happen to be "playing" in a 2nd person POV story. Some circumstances or decisions you may not be comfortable with as "you" in the story, but which is part of the narrative. For example, I have a story in which the main character shows up at a wedding and thinks, "Damn, I was hoping to get another blowjob" from the bride. So maybe YOU wouldn't do that, but the character you've taken on would. And does.

Thanks... first time post!

"BUT... a 2nd person POV is often not intended to be you, the person sitting at the keyboard. It's meant to be a fictional character through whose eyes you see the adventures. So I think it is appropriate to put thoughts in this character's head, since he or she is the creation of the author."

This may be true, but it is also wrong (in my humble opinion). If a story is going to operate on that assumption then it would be better off written in 3rd or 1st person. I don't see any reason to use 2nd person if the writer is going to tell me everything about myself. I consider that intrusive. Instead, let me intrude on someone else, say, this character who is written of in the 3rd person, or-- even more so-- this character written in the 1st person. I think that 1st person POV achieves what you are talking about.

" 'Damn, I was hoping to get another blowjob' from the bride. So maybe YOU wouldn't do that, but the character you've taken on would. And does." --24ward

There's no reason that this idea isn't supported by my philosophy of 2nd person. All you have to do is make the decision available for the reader. As I hope I had mentioned earlier, 2nd POV is also empowering because it should allow maximum freedom for the reader, since no choices should be out of bounds, considering that there is no predetermined character for us to step into the shoes of. We are the character.

To provide an example, here is a link to a thread I wrote: http://www.chyoo.com:81/index.php/main.story.page/40973/

When I'd first written it last year (when Chyoo was dead), I forced an opinion of feminism on the reader. I told the reader, "you think that this is a bunch of bullshit." That was wrong. I was writing in the 2nd person, and I had no business explaining what was supposed to be in the viewer's head. If I did, then I'd be writing in 1st or 3rd.

I've since revised the thread, and rewrote it to allow the reader to decide for herself what she thinks of the topic. The reactions of the other characters, as well as the story outcomes, vary based on the reader's decision. I'm clearly biased, but this is how it should be.

And, as another note on your example about the blowjob, I concede that you can't always leave the thoughts to the reader. I infer the reader's attitude from the decisions he makes, and sometimes I make up a few because not to do so would create tons of tiny threads not worth publishing. Sometimes, as the editor, you also want the story going in a particular direction, and not having certain thoughts for the main character hurts that direction (I believe that a good 2nd person chyoo won't suffer such a problem, but nobody's perfect). The only way to place all the control with the reader is to make a video game (which I'd love to do, in fact).

Too many words....my brain hurts!

I believe that's the point that 24ward is trying to make, amalgam. If you look at a 2nd person perspective story on Chyoo more as a game where you roleplay a character rather than the character actually being you in the story, you can have the freedom of being told what the character that you are playing actually feels. The way you see the 2nd POV is that of the reader actually being immersed in the story. Those are two valid ways to approach the point of view in my opinion.

"I believe that's the point that 24ward is trying to make, amalgam. If you look at a 2nd person perspective story on Chyoo more as a game where you roleplay a character rather than the character actually being you in the story, you can have the freedom of being told what the character that you are playing actually feels. The way you see the 2nd POV is that of the reader actually being immersed in the story. Those are two valid ways to approach the point of view in my opinion."

Sure. I understand that. But it's redundant. Writing this way imparts no special qualities on the POV that you choose. There's a 1st person chyoo in which the reader takes on the role of the main character's conscience. Brilliant idea. It could be done in the other POVs, but I think it works best in 1st. Full immersion and freedom for the reader? That should be 2nd POV's forte. 3rd POV offers the freedom to seamlessly jump characters and situations. I think 3rd person works best for those chyoos in which ANYTHING is possible.

"There's a 1st person chyoo in which the reader takes on the role of the main character's conscience."

I have to disagree with that opinion. The first person point of view uses is based on the views of the story teller, not on the reader. It's someone else's story being told to you. Second person point of view is the story teller describing what happens to YOU in the story. I don't see first person perspective as an immersive pov.

"I have to disagree with that opinion. The first person point of view uses is based on the views of the story teller, not on the reader. It's someone else's story being told to you. Second person point of view is the story teller describing what happens to YOU in the story. I don't see first person perspective as an immersive pov."

No, it's not, and that isn't what I was trying to say. What I meant was that the story I was mentioning is based on a concept that works exceptionally well for the POV, which is 1st person. Each POV has strengths and weaknesses. Authors work well enough in 3rd person, but not in 2nd. This is because they typically apply the qualities of 3rd person to that POV, rather than employ its strengths. The conscience concept uses the qualities of 1st person to great effect. 3rd person is the most versatile, being able to accept nearly all angles of storytelling. As for 2nd POV, reader immersion should be its forte, but sadly, this just isn't true.

As I said before, an author can write his story any way he wants to, but there are differences between the POVs, and they're not just in the pronouns. I want people to recognize these differences when they write, so that reading one POV is a unique experience from reading another.

With utmost respect, that's the crux of the difference of opinion. An author may write in the 2nd person POV and not provide comment on the thinking of the protaganist; the question is MUST an author do this in order for it to be acceptable to the Chyoo community?

I can see your point of view, and even that certain pronouns lend themselves to certain story-telling styles. But I don't think it is ironclad that any pronoun must be utilized in a given way, and specifically that 2nd person POV must not provide internal commentary.

It seems to me that you concede it is acceptable in a 2nd person POV to say "It would be great to see what's underneath the girl's skirt," or "Shockingly, she has no panties." Though it doesn't use the pronoun, it stills frames the mental state. In my opinion, it's actually even more intrusive, since its passive wording just takes the thought as assumed, as matter of course. My way of phrasing at least presents it as the POV of "you", the character.

So what it comes down to is an issue of style. I would suggest that if you have any 2nd person POV stories you're editing, you're well within your rights to stipulate your opinion by way of writing guidelines. If I submit a thread full of what you deem extraneous intrusive comments, I will understand if you cut them. I would also be willing to amend the guidelines in my 2nd person POV, "Big Man on Campus" (plug!), to say that authors may provide commentary on Dwayne's thoughts.

But does internal commentary in 2nd person POV rise to the level of grammatical error, as grave a crime as breaking into 1st or 3rd person or saying "you was surprised what happened next"? I am not convinced it does.

The question is, could the coexistence of both opinions be tolerated?

"The question is, could the coexistence of both opinions be tolerated?"

Clearly they can. My own writing consists of me trying to balance the two. My concept of 2nd POV is two-fold: 1) 2nd POV should be less presumptive of the reader, and 2) 2nd POV should find alternatives to its use of the pronoun "you." Much of the discussion thus far has been about #1, but #2 is just as important.

As for my "concessions:" when I read "you," and I'm being told what I'm doing and how I'm feeling, I feel like I'm having a finger pointed at me. Any grade school teacher can tell you that IT IS RUDE TO POINT! KABOOM!! So decreasing the use of "you" not only feels less intrusive to me, but also expands the breadth of the writing. I understand how you feel about things being written as a matter of course. Obviously you and I feel different on this, and I don't believe that there's going to be any convincing going on while we're on this issue.

Of course, we can't completely eliminate "you." That would be ridiculous. For the sake of sentence variety or even necessity, sometimes I also write "You blabla this, and then you blabla that." On the same note, I can't leave everything for the reader. I can't stop every few sentences with a continuing question to ask the reader how she feels. I do have one thread in which I am egregiously guilty of my own "crime," (I forced the reader to be angry) but too many threads have gone by to fix it now.l

There is a balance to all this. If people were aware of it, experiencing Chyoo might be that much more enjoyable. No, there are no rules being broken, here. In another thread I mentioned that I wouldn't support any kind of "policing" of "incorrectly" written threads, and that especially precludes 2nd POV threads.

jakelyon said:

You make an excellent point. I have always tried to avoid the 2nd person as it seems more shallow some how. You have pointed out some excellent techniques to give 2nd person stories more depth. I will try to put your ideas to use in my own writing.

Thanks for taking the time to think it through.

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I have to agree. I didn't think so when I started my story, and I was fascinated with its use since it is so rear one can do so. But If I could I would change the story. but that would take a ve...

you know what I think I will try to do that. I might be gone for a while

Yup, I think 2nd person POV can be shallow and not very interesting. That's why I think it should be as immersive as 3rd person. I say, establish the character and tell me what he or she thinks as we determine what is done!

Maester said:

I have to agree. I didn't think so when I started my story, and I was fascinated with its use since it is so rear one can do so. But If I could I would change the story. but that would take a ve...

you know what I think I will try to do that. I might be gone for a while

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Maester... Could you run this by me one more time? "So rear?"

I have a hard time understanding why 2nd person is viewed as shallow. Any story can be shallow if the writer fails to add in enough details into the character or background of the story. Is it that people view the protagonist in a 2nd person story as a token character that can be filled by any reader?

Character traits could easily be added into the main character through decisions of the reader. If the reader is aggressive for sexual exploits, then that could be reflected in the story direction so that it becomes a trait of the character, meanwhile if the reader chooses a more suave approach to bedding someone that story direction could reflect another character. Even if the entire story is based on one premise, the protagonist doesn't necessarily have to have one set of character traits throughout the story, it just needs to remain consistent in one linear story path. That's my opinion though.

amalgam said:

No, it's not, and that isn't what I was trying to say. What I meant was that the story I was mentioning is based on a concept that works exceptionally well for the POV, which is 1st person. Each POV has strengths and weaknesses. Authors work well enough in 3rd person, but not in 2nd. This is because they typically apply the qualities of 3rd person to that POV, rather than employ its strengths. The conscience concept uses the qualities of 1st person to great effect. 3rd person is the most versatile, being able to accept nearly all angles of storytelling. As for 2nd POV, reader immersion should be its forte, but sadly, this just isn't true.

As I said before, an author can write his story any way he wants to, but there are differences between the POVs, and they're not just in the pronouns. I want people to recognize these differences when they write, so that reading one POV is a unique experience from reading another.

Click to expand...

At the risk of beating a dead horse, I just wanted to return to this spirited discussion. You may recall that I wrote "Big Man on Campus" as a 2nd person POV. Well, as usual, I thought about what you said and what I said in the days and weeks after I shot my mouth off. And, I usual, I changed my mind.

I can see that it would be very distracting for the reader to be told who they are and how they feel. I didn't want the story to be 3rd person, but I hadn't thought enough about 1st person. So I've made "Big Man on Campus" a first person story now, and immersive. And I do think it reads better.

So thanks for the lively exchange of views. They actually did accomplish something.

I've got a secret: I'm not going to, but I've thought several times about changing the POV on MC Adventure. Don't tell anyone!!

oh... wait... crap!

Because I love a challenge...

I'm plotting a new story for CHYOO and I'm thinking about putting it in second POV, so I'm asking: what sort of scenarios are appropriate for that POV?

* In reading a second person POV, is it jarring to read what "you" think?

*How about secrets that "you" know (in the narrative) and other characters don't?

* Should the story provide options for "you" to be good or bad, virtuous or vicious... or, this being CHYOO, can we just assume various degrees of bad behaviour?

* Must the thread end every time there is something the main character says or does? Does a series of decisions in the course of one thread harm the story?

I'd really appreciate some feedback as I craft exactly how to approach my story...