Sex and Spirituality

entitled said:

Ran across this thread this morning
https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=400468

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mcopado said:

Two weeks after I posted the same info...I know the link to the audio and church is down here somehwere...

I didn't pay atention, is this thread in the GB? If so I'm keeping my mouth shut....

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mcopado said:

I posted there, mostly just the stuff I posted here....*Yawn* Old news....

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entitled said:

i know. i saw.
It had another visitor, too.

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mcopado said:

Saw that too...

Hey don't you have in your vast intellect the history of Satan, Hell etc, and when it first was incorporated or accepted into Christianity? Just like anything else in Chritianity, things were accepted and rejected by committee....I thought I had posted something here, but I don't have it...Just to prove onceagain that that topic was diebated and argued....

Remind me someday to write a book and add plenty of phrases to justify itself such as "this is the literal word of..." or "To disagree will lead to eternal torment..." Then bury it in my back yard for a thousand years then see what happens, just because something claims to be something doesn't mean it really is...sheesh...

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mcopado said:

Looks like she's gonna be attacked there, too....Maybe she should just start her post with "This is my beliefs..." then go into all of it...it does sound heavy handed the way she wrote it...

Gotta love our Virgin, wish she'd come back here where at least she's safe....

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SelenaKittyn said:

Does anyone here read David Deida?

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entitled said:

*snickers*
*hushes*
The current 'vision' of hell, seen as it is by so many today, didn't happen at ALL until Dante's Inferno became popular. Up until that time it was a very individual thing. Each person had their own vision of hell and that was that.

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mcopado said:

Yeah, a lot of the concepts came from Dante, which have been mished mashed into Christianity, as well as obviously Greek Underworld and Pan..

But I know there is a literal timeline of adoption by Catholicism/Chritianity of Hell, Satan, et, al....

I keep hoping you two would simply agree to disagree and move the hell on.....

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Did workshops with David Deida when The Way of the Superior Man came out, what 6-7 years ago??? Haven't kept up with his work since then, I know he's been doing the Tantric stuff last Iheard...What's he been up to...

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SelenaKittyn said:

I've never done a workshop (wanted to! cash issue) but I love his stuff. It's the first thing I ever read that drew me to spirituality (and my spirituality is very new-- obviously, his books aren't that old) and spoke of it in terms that I could really not just understand but *feel*... the feminine lets god in through the body, and Deida has a way of moving me just with his words... I saw him speak here at the International Men's Conference in 2003 and was hooked... he was saying things about the masculine and feminine that appealed to my Jungian background, but in a way that moved me that Jung couldn't have even come close to doing...

as for what he's doing now: www.bluetruth.org

unfortunately, most of it is a pay site now... up until summer there was an amazing free listserv that was really pushing the edges... loved it... but it's dwindled... people apparently don't want to pay for consciousness

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BTW Welcome

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Development of the Concept of Satan prior to 300 BCE in Israel:
Traditionally, Christians have believed that the Pentateuch [the first 5 books of the Hebrew Scriptures or Old Testament] were written by Moses under the inspiration of God circa 1450 BCE during the nation's exodus from Egypt. The book of Daniel was seen as having been written by Daniel himself, in the 6th century CE, etc. Conservative Christians still believe this today, largely because the Bible mentions the identity of its authors in many locations, and conservatives believe the Bible to be inerrant. However, analysis of the Bible as a historical document since the late 19th century has convinced essentially all non-Evangelical Old Testament scholars that most of the Pentateuch was not written by Moses. It is rather made up of a mixture of writings and editing by three individuals or groups: in 950 BCE by "J", 750 BCE for "E" and 539 BCE for "P". Deuteronomy was written in the 7th century BCE, and Daniel was written in the 2nd century BCE. In the following material, we will assume that the liberal interpretation is correct.

Among those books of the Hebrew Scriptures written before 300 BCE, the term "satan" (root word "s'tn") appears often. The word is derived from the original Hebrew verb "satan" which means "to oppose." The Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek was widely used in the early Christian church. They translated "satan" as "diaboloc" from which we derive our English term "devil" and "diabolic."

The word is used to refer to:

Any person acting as an accuser or enemy. For example: 1 Samuel 29:4: The Philistines were distrustful of David, fearing that he would be a satan. (translated "adversary" or "someone who will turn against us").
2 Samuel 19:22: Shime-i apologizes to King David. The King rejects the apology, saying that they should not be a satan to each other (translated "adversary" or "opponent").
1 Kings 5:4: King Solomon is talking to Hiram, the King of Tyre. He says that now that there is neither satan nor bad luck to stop him, he can build the Temple. (translated as "adversary", "enemy", or "one who opposes").
1 Kings 11:14: God raised up Hadad the Edomite as a satan against Solomon. (translated as "adversary," or "opponent").

a divine messenger sent by God as an adversary: Numbers 22:22 & 32: God appears in a dream, telling Balaam to go with the princes of Moab to meet Balak. But when Balaam sets out the next morning on his donkey, God is angry with him for some reason, and sent an angel/messenger to kill him. The donkey saw the angel and took evasive actions. The angel was invisible to Balaam, who beat the animal. The donkey asked Balaam why he had beat her three times. Balaam, who doesn't seem to realize that a talking donkey is an unusual occurrence, replies. The angel then appears and explains that he has come as a satan to kill him. (translated as "one who opposes, "withstand," "adversary")

a member of God's inner council; a type of chief prosecutor of Heaven: 1 Chronicles 21:1: Satan, "a supernatural evil emissary," acting on God's behalf, has influenced David to hold a census. The census is taken, and God is angry for an unknown reason. Perhaps God does not want humans to be aware of the strength of the army. God then offers David his choice of one of three punishments: a 3 year famine, 3 months of fleeing before his enemies' armies, or a plague throughout Israel. David selects the plague and God killed 70,000 men (and presumably a similar number of women and many tens of thousands of children). In 2 Samuel 24, the identical event is described. However, this time, the text states that God influenced David to hold the census. Even though God had incited David to enumerate the men of Israel and Judah, he was still angry that it was done and punished the Israelites with a plague. The writings in 2 Samuel are believed to be the original account; 1 Chronicles came later. It is believed that when Samuel was finally edited (circa 560 BCE), the editors thought that all supernatural actions (good and bad) came from God. When Chronicles was written over a century later, (circa 400 BCE) the author viewed God as operating indirectly through his helpers.
Job 1 and 2: Satan is described as one of the members of the court of heaven. God mentions that he is impressed at the behavior of Job, a blameless man who has lived an upright life. Satan attributes Job's commendable behavior to his good fortune and says that Job would soon curse God if he had a string of really bad luck. God decides to conduct an experiment with Job; he instructs Satan to destroy all that Job has: kill his animals, murder his employees, and murder his innocent children. But, even after these disasters, Job still does not curse God. So God instructs Satan to up the ante by returning to earth and destroying Job's health. Here, Satan is portrayed as a servant of God whose task it is to dutifully carry out evil deeds at God's instruction.
Zechariah 3:1-7: Satan is again portrayed as a member of God's council. Here he objects to the selection of Joshua as the high priest.


There are no passages within the older parts of the Hebrew Scriptures where Satan is portrayed as an evil devil - the arch enemy of God and of humanity. At most, he is described as a henchman who carries out God's evil instructions. There is no dualism here between two powerful supernatural entities: an all-good God and an all-evil Satan. God is portrayed as performing, directly and indirectly, both kind and evil deeds. When:

plagues are to be sent, or
a great genocidal flood is created to kill off almost all of humanity, except for Noah and his family, or
Onan was killed because he practiced an elementary form of birth control, in violation of a cultural tradition, or
Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because its residents were abusive to the needy and to strangers, or
Lot's wife is turned into a pillar of salt because she looked the wrong way,

it is God who does it. In essence, the ancient writers of the early Hebrew Scriptures looked upon Jehovah as performing both good and evil deeds. A good indication of this is found in:

Isaiah 45:6-7:

"...I am the LORD and there is none else. I form the light and create darkness. I make peace an create evil. I the LORD do all these things." (KJV)

or in Job 9:22-23:

"...[God] destroys both the blameless and the wicked. When a scourge brings sudden death, he mocks the despair of the innocent." (i.e. laughs at the suffering of the victim)

or in Lamentations 3:37-38:

"Who has commanded and it came to pass, unless the Lord has ordained it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and evil come?"



Development of the Concept of Satan prior to 300 BCE in Ancient Iran:
Historians have traced the foundations for the concept of Satan to the Indo-European invasion circa 2000 BCE. This migration of what are now called the Kurgan people, emigrated from what is now southern Russia into the Near East, Middle East and Europe. They were polytheists, and worshiped at least one Mother Goddess and one male God. Their religious beliefs were based on the Hindu sacred writings of the Vedas. Those who settled in western Europe became the Celtic people with their religion of Druidism and perhaps what is now called Wicca. Those Kurgans who settled in the Middle East developed religious belief along different lines. They developed the twin concepts of salvation and damnation after death. Upon dying, they believed that soul of the deceased must pass over a narrow bridge on horseback. It was called the "Bridge of the Petitioner." Rashu, a god, judged each soul and decides who is sufficiently righteous to cross the bridge and who will fall into a type of Hell with "flames and terrible smells." 1 Once salvation and Heaven, (and damnation and Hell) were created, then the stage was set for the next logical concept: that of a Devil.

Zoroaster (a.k.a. Zarathrustra, Zarthosht) is believed by some to have lived circa 628 to 551 BCE. (Other estimates run from 600 to 6,000 BCE) He was a Persian prophet in what is now Iran. Like Jesus, he was recorded as having been tempted by Satan; he performed many miracles and healings and was considered a supernatural being by his followers. He introduced a major spiritual reform and created what is generally regarded as the first established monotheistic religion in the world. He rejected the worship of the established trinity of Varuna, Mithra and Indra. The new religion, to be called Zoroastrianism, involved the worship of a single male god, Ahura Mazda, the "sovereign, lawmaker, supreme judge, master of day and night, the center of nature and inventor of moral law." He created the heavens and the earth. In short, he had all of the attributes attributed to Jehovah by the ancient Israelites, but with a different name. Zoroaster also recognized Ahura Mazda's twin brother: Angra Manyu, (a.k.a. Ahriman) the God of Evil. The only things that he created were snakes, demons, and all of the world's evil. 2 The old gods of the previous polytheistic religion became the demons of the new faith. Thus, Ahriman became the first Devil that the world has seen, and his assistants became the first cohort of demons under the control of a all-evil deity

Zoroaster taught that Ahura Mazda and Ahriman would continually battle each other until the God of Evil is finally defeated. At this time, the dead will be resurrected, a Last Judgement will divide all the people that have ever lived into two groups; the bad go to Hell for all eternity; the good go to Paradise. As author Gerald. Messandé so eloquently wrote: "The framework of the three monotheisms [Judaism, Christianity, Islam] had been erected. The Devil's birth certificate was filled out by an Iranian prophet."



Development of the Concept of Satan, 300 BCE to 100 CE:
The Scofield reference Bible closes the Hebrew Scriptures with the book of Malachi, 397 BCE. It opens the Christian Scriptures with Matthew's gospel in 37 CE. This is a gap of over 4 centuries. This interval has traditionally been called the "intertestamental period." But modern Bible scholarship has found that reality is not quite that neat:

The Book of Daniel seems to have been written circa 165 BCE, in the middle of the intertestamental period. It recounts events 4 centuries earlier and is written as if Daniel was the author.
The Book of Esther was apparently written in the 1st or 2nd century BCE
The Gospel of Mark was the first gospel. Most Old Testament scholars date it to about 70 CE. Matthew came along later, circa 80 CE.

Many Jewish writings have been preserved from that era. Some were collected and form the Apocrypha (Greek word meaning "hidden."). These books appear in the Septuagint (a Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures) and in the Vulgate (early Latin translation of the Bible). They are found in Roman Catholic Bibles and some Protestant Bibles. Conservative Protestants do not accept the Apocrypha as inerrant or inspired by God.

During the last three centuries before Christ's birth, the portrayal of Satan underwent a major change. The Zoroastrian / Persian dualism concept appeared in Jewish writing: God was now looked upon as wholly good; Satan as profoundly evil. History was seen as a battle between them. No longer was Satan simply God's prosecuting attorney, helper, or lackey. Satan, and his demons, were now humanity's greatest enemies.

Author G. Messandé 1 theorizes that from the middle of the 5th century BCE until 53 BC and later, the Jews were on particularly good terms with the Persians. From the latter's religion, Zoroastrianism, the Jews picked up a number of concepts: the immortality of the soul, angels, and Satan. Of the 3 main divisions of Judaism (Essenes, Pharisees, Saducees) in the 1st century BCE, the Essenes seems to have focused the most on Satan.

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Introduction

Also commonly known in Christianity as the Devil, the Serpent (Genesis 3), a fallen angel or Lucifer (amongst many other names [1]), Satan typically represents an evil being that is opposed to God and those who seek to do God's will. Most Christians believe the devil is an angel who was kicked out of heaven to roam the earth after leading a rebellion against God. To support this idea (and the notion that Satan exists and is a real being), Christians will typically use passages such as this found in the book of Isaiah:

How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to earth... You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God... I will make myself like the Most High." But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit. (Isaiah 14:12-15)

However, although this passage might look like it is speaking about Satan it is not. Satan is actually not a prominent figure in the Bible (although some might argue that its presence can be seen throughout). Passages, such as the one quoted above, can sometimes be taken out of their original context and given a new meaning based on current Christian beliefs. For instance, Isaiah's word's were originally spoken into a historical context before, during and after the time the Nation of Israel was taken into exile by the Babylonians in 586 BCE. Thus the original referent of these passages is not a 'fallen angel' called Satan but the human rulers and nations who sought to oppose the Jewish people and their God. So in order to explore here the biblical teaching concerning the Devil we will restrict ourselves to passages which specifically mention Satan (or the Devil) so that we avoid 'reading-into' other passages meanings which may not have been originally intended.

Satan in the Old Testament

Although Christians typically see the universe as separated into good and evil forces (God and Satan respectively), this is not how the Old Testament sees things. As far as the writers there are concerned everything comes from God. If bad things happen people in the Old Testament do not blame the devil but usually ask, "What have I done to offend God?". If good things happens this is because it is believed people have pleased/obeyed God. A good example of this can be seen in Deuteronomy 28:1-68 where blessings and curses are set out for either obeying or disobeying God. This notion of God blessing and cursing (or punishing) people can be seen in all aspects of human relationships. For example, women who could not have children were encouraged to find out what they had done to offend God as infertility was understood as a sign of divine dis-favour (Genesis 30:1-2). In Genesis 3:17-19 the ground is cursed by God to produce thorns which will make people's working of the land much harder. This aspect of the world (i.e. God as the source of both good and 'evil' events in the world), can also be seen when the Jewish nation was taken into exile by the Babylonians in 596 BCE and the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed. The prophets believed this catastrophe was not the work of any devil but the result of divine judgement against the people for turning away from God.

The peaceful meadows will be laid waste because of the fierce anger of the Lord. Like a lion he will leave his lair, and their land will become desolate because of the sword of the oppressor and because of the Lord's fierce anger. (Jeremiah 25:37-38)

So if every event in the world (either good or evil (bad)), was originally traceable to God then who is Satan?

The word satan in Hebrew (the language of the Old Testament), is generally accepted to mean 'to obstruct' but it also has in it the idea of an opponent or an adversary (i.e. one who challenges). Thus the satan originally meant one who 'obstructs' or 'challenges'. This aspect of the satan's 'work' is seen in the story of Balaam and his donkey (Numbers 22:21ff). Balaam was on a journey against the wishes of God who sent an angel (a satan) to stand in his way ('... the angel of the Lord stood in the road to oppose him'). It is only because his donkey saw the angel and refused to go on which stopped Balaam from being put to death. So here we see that the satan in this instance is not an evil being but simply an angel who is sent to 'obstruct' (literally stop), Balaam. In 1 Kings 11:14 the word satan is also used to describe an enemy of Solomon ('Then the Lord raised up against Solomon an adversary'). Once again, satan here does not refer to an evil being.

In the book of Job (probably the oldest book in the Old Testament), Satan begins to take on some of the characteristics we commonly subscribe to it. The book of Job is a story of a righteous man who loses everything, yet remains faithful to God, because of a 'bet' between God and Satan. At the end of this time (when God has 'won'), Job receives back ten times the amount he originally had. In terms of Satan's role the story begins with the angels presenting themselves before God; Satan also came with them (Job 1:6-7). Now if we apply the Christian understanding of the devil as an evil being to Satan in this account then we have a problem. If the devil was cast out of heaven before the creation of the world (as is believed), then why is it coming before God? God is holy and pure and cannot dwell in the presence of sin ('Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrong.' (Habakkuk 1:13)), so how could the devil enter heaven? Clearly there is no easy answer here yet if we see Satan's role as the 'accuser' (i.e. the devil's advocate), this may resolve part of the problem. Satan is simply a being who roams the earth antagonizing humans.

Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no-one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil" "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has?... But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face." (Job 1:8-11)

If Satan is an evil fallen angel this is a strange conversation yet it makes sense if we see Satan's role simply as the 'accuser' (kind of like cross-examining a witness in court). Furthermore, Satan afflicts Job within the bounds of what God allows and never goes against what God says (Job 1:12-2:10). Once again, this is not the image of Satan traditionally held by many Christians as a being who has, and does, disobey God. Yet it fits in with the Old Testament picture of God as the source of both good and bad (or misfortune), in the world and Satan, God's heavenly adversary (not in an evil sense).

This original understanding of Satan also helps us understand the temptation of the first humans in Genesis 3:1-24. Once again, if Satan is an evil being it is wandering the earth which God created good and perfect ('God saw all he had made and it was good' (Genesis 1:31). Furthermore, if Satan is an evil being then it cannot be included in the idea that everything God created was good. Yet Satan is a created being (Christians believe only God is uncreated), and the Bible says that God believed everything that God created was good! Once again, the problem is largely resolved by understanding Satan's role as we have done so far.

Developing the Jewish Understanding of Satan during the Inter-Testamental Period

When the Nation of Israel was taken into exile by the Babylonians in 586 BCE they came into contact with new religious ideologies which challenged their ideas of God and the universe. The Old Testament books written during and after this time reflect this and take on a much more cosmological dimension. For example, God is no longer restricted to the temple in Jerusalem but is now understood as one who can be met outside the temple and even in a foreign land (Ezekiel 1:1). In terms of the Jewish understanding of Satan this was also challenged during this time and in particular during the 400 year period between the end of the Old Testament and the events of the New Testament.

After the exile the Jews were allowed to return to Jerusalem to begin rebuilding the temple and the city. The land remained occupied by foreign powers (first the Persians (who defeated the Babylonians) and then the Greeks), until Judas Maccabeus led a revolt in 168 BCE against the Syrian king Antiochus Epiphanes who desecrated the temple in Jerusalem by placing a statue to the Greek God Zeus in it. From this time until the Roman invasion of 63 BCE (under Pompey), the Jews were an independent nation. Between 168 and 63 BCE various Jewish groups and people sought to take control of the temple and and the role of high priest and spiritual leader of the nation. At the time of the New Testament one group, called the Essenes, had even left Jerusalem to form their own community in the desert at a place called Qumran. They believed withdrawal from the world's affairs was necessary if spiritual purity was to be attained (and maintained).

In the writings which cover this period of Jewish history Satan takes on the more specific role familiar to people today. Evil (misfortune?) began to be seen as something which was now outside the will of God and began to be attributed to Satan (who now becomes the 'obstructer' (the satan), preventing God's will being done and the 'accuser', calling people to turn away from God (and ridiculing those who do obey God)). Possibly taking their leading from the nations they came into contact with (most notably Zoroastrianism), Jews began to understand the cosmos as being divided into both good (God) and evil (Satan) aspects. Those nations who had stood against them were now considered to be evil and under the control of Satan (the devil). The Jews (the Chosen people (see Genesis 12:1-2), were on the side of God (good). However, within the conflicts between the various Jewish groups, divisions arose between those who believed they stood for God (obviously based on their interpretation of what 'standing for God' was), and those who did not. This led to the outcast groups also being branded as 'Satanic' (or led by Satan). This can be most clearly seen with the Essenes who believed Satan had taken control of the world, through the occupying forces, and other Jews, who often welcomed their oppressors. Their withdrawal from the world was literally, for them, a withdrawal from Satan's kingdom. It was also during this time that the story of Satan's fall from heaven was developed and accepted by many people [2].

Satan in the New Testament

Whereas the Old Testament contained a small number of passages referring to satan (Satan) the New Testament paints a much more vivid picture of its activities (although as with the Old Testament we are never told what Satan actually looks like despite the use of many metaphors (E.g. 'Then I saw another beast... he had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon.' (Revelation 13:11)). Jesus was acutely aware of the presence of Satan in the world and spoke of a kingdom of the devil as well as a kingdom of God (implying that just as God exists so must the devil (Matthew 12:26)). Jesus also performed exorcisms on people that were believed to be possessed by the devil (E.g. Mark 1:21-28, 5:1-20 [3]). He was also tempted by the devil after he had fasted for forty days in the wilderness before he began his ministry (Matthew 4:1-11, Luke 4:1-13). However, as well as believing Satan to be an independent being opposed to God and the establishment of God's kingdom on earth (E.g. 'Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mid the things of God, but the things of men' (Matthew 16:23), Jesus also spoke of the Jewish religious leaders, who opposed his own teaching, as 'children of the devil'.

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. (John 8:44)

This is similar to the way Satan was used by different Jewish groups in the inter-Testamental period to refer to those who they believed were in error (E.g. The Essenes).

The Apostle Paul also referred to the activity of Satan in the world and spoke of it as the one who tempts people away from God by pretending to be an angel of light ('... for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light' (2 Corinthians 11:14)). Peter wrote that Satan was like a lion looking people to devour (1 Peter 5:8). However, although these writers taught that Christians need to resist and fight Satan (Ephesians 6:10-18, 'Resist the devil, and he will flee from you' (James 4:7)), they also recognised that Satan is a defeated enemy ('For he [God] has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves' (Colossians 1:13). This belief that Satan is a defeated enemy is most strongly represented in the book of Revelation.

Written during a time when Christians were undergoing fierce persecution, and intended to encourage to them remain true to the faith, many Christians believe the book of Revelation speaks of events in the world yet to come. The book of Revelation talks of a cosmic battle when Satan will be finally defeated by God and cast into the pit for all eternity. Although the book was written at the end of the first century to specific groups of Christians (Revelation 1-3) the imagery of Revelation has often been taken literally and has led to all manner of speculation concerning future world events. The best example of such interpretations come from the Jehovah's Witnesses who take literally the idea that there will only be 144,000 in heaven with God (Revelation 14:1) and that an anti-Christ (false prophet) will try to get Christians to leave their faith before the end of the world. This false prophet will be recognised by a mark and a special number ('If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666' (Revelation 13:18). However one interprets the book of Revelation its overwhelming message in relation to Satan (the devil) is clear. Satan is a defeated enemy and is not to be feared by Christians.

And the devil who deceived them [all the nations], was thrown into the lake of burning sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)

Satan and the Christian Church during the Middle Ages

As Christians beliefs were developed so Satan's role became more defined. However, the temptation to cast as agents of Satan the enemies of the Church (or those who were simply not Christians), led to the Crusades and the witch-hunts under the Inquisition (and would eventually lead to the conquerors of the 'New World' to destroy much indigenous culture (E.g. The Mayan civilisation).

In 1095 Pope Urban II sent the crusading armies into battle against the 'infidel' Muslims who had conquered Jerusalem. The Crusades are one of the most sorry affairs in Christian history and were motivated by the idea that they were fighting a holy war against not only human 'enemies' but also spiritual ones ('The Muslims were tarred by the brush of the Prince of Darkness. Muhammad was the devil incarnate and his followers the servants of Satan' (Stanford p.117). Later on the Jews would be tarred with the same brush, accused by the Church of being the murderers of Jesus.

Under the Inquisition (12th-17th centuries), enemies of the Church were tortured and burnt for the sake of their souls which were believed to be the devil's possession. As before, Satan was used to define the Church's enemies (which they also believed justified their horrific methods). Satan was often seen in everyday activities. If you enjoyed sex or food too much then you were believed to be possessed by such demons. The witch-hunts often singled out attractive women for being too alluring to men (and thus tempting them to want to have sex with them (temptation being a characteristic of the devil)). Many people were handed over to the Inquisition and burnt at the stake simply because they had upset a neighbour. In an age of often blind superstition, and fear of the devil, the claim that someone was an enemy of he Church and in league with Satan was easy to make and slow to refute.

[Although these events are serious blemishes in Church history there are still Christians today (E.g. certain Evangelical groups), who believe that those who are not true believers (obviously according to their definition), are in the hands of the devil and fully condone the smashing and burning of certain religious imagery (E.g. statues of gods), to thwart what they believe to be Satan's activity.]

Finally, although this was a dark period regarding Christian practice one of the most important developments for shaping our understanding of Satan today also occurred during this time. Because many people could not read and did not have access to the Bible, plays were often put on to teach people Bible stories and spiritual and moral lessons. In these plays the figure of the devil was often represented using much of the imagery we associate with it today: horns, redness, animal characteristics etc.

Satan in the Modern Era

When people started to question the Church's teaching, and to think for themselves, everything changed. The Enlightenment (Age of Reason), which began in the seventeenth century, marked a turning point in not only our understanding of God but also the devil. By subjecting religious 'truth' to reason people began to reject what they could not see (or validate with their senses). Coupled with the new science of psychology, started by Sigmund Freud in the nineteenth century, religious belief gradually began to be internalised. God, and subsequently the devil, began to be seen as things that existed solely within a person's mind. Freud's most famous student Carl Jung even saw the darker aspects of human nature (and the cosmos), as alienated aspects of one's own personality which he called the shadow. Jung believed the shadow is made up of those aspects of our lives which we try to repress yet in repressing these he believed that they would sooner or later end up manifesting themselves (E.g. Someone brought up believing sex is dirty may end up becoming promiscuous because they had repressed this aspect of their nature). In modern society we often call this rebellion, or 'kicking against the system', but essentially what such a person is doing is trying to embrace the 'darker' aspects of their lives (or their culture), previously forbidden to them. Thus, whereas in the past Christianity had tended to alienate evil and understand it as that which was opposed to good, Jung saw evil as that which needed to be recognised and in some ways embraced in order for a person to remain psychologically balanced.

This shift in the modern era towards the internalisation of religious belief has had interesting repercussions in our sociological understanding of Satan. For example, whereas in the past the cure for demon possession had been exorcism, now it is generally recognised as the psychiatrist's couch. Only in Fundamentalist religious circles do we still find people insisting that a cosmic battle is being waged between God and Satan and that people can literally be possessed by the devil. Nowadays, when evil is acknowledged in both people and society, this is usually explained either through genetics or social and family influences (i.e. in explaining why a man such as Hitler committed such evil acts most people would research his upbringing rather than blame Satan for his actions). In rejecting the belief that God exists in the heavens Ludwig Feurbach spoke of God as that which is the sum of our highest ideals. In other words, God does does not exist as an independent reality but is a term we use to refer to our utopia (E.g. If I believe racism is evil then my God would condemn racism). In terms of evil, Satan would naturally represent those aspects of human nature or society which are opposed to my utopia (or my God - and we saw how this also occurred during the inter-Testamental period). In Christian terms, this gradual shift towards the internalisation of evil (and Satan), has culminated in the twentieth century statement by the Roman Catholic Church that Satan does not exist as an independent reality separate from God.

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During his weekly address to the general audience of 8,500 people at the Vatican on July 28, 1999, Pope John Paul II rejected the reality of a physical, literal hell as a place of eternal fire and torment. Rather, the pope said hell is separation, even in this life, from the joyful communion with God. According to an official Vatican transcript of the pope's speech, Pope John Paul II noted that the Scriptural references to hell and the images portrayed by Scripture are only symbolic and figurative of "the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. " He added, "Rather than a physical place, hell is the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy." He said hell is "a condition resulting from attitudes and actions which people adopt in this life." Concerning the concept of eternal damnation, the pope said, "Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person, and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever." The pope also added, "The thought of hell and even less the improper use of biblical images must not create anxiety or despair." Rather, he stated, it is a reminder of the freedom found in Christ.

The Religion News Service reported that a Vatican-approved editorial published several weeks ago in the Jesuit journal Civilta Cattolica agrees with the pope's latest pronouncement. The editorial explicitly pronounced, "Hell exists, not as a place but as a state, a way of being of the person who suffers the pain of the deprivation of God" (Los Angeles Times, 7-31-99). The pope said eternal damnation is "not God's work but is actually our own doing." Only a week earlier the pope stated that heaven is neither "an abstraction nor a place in the clouds, but a living, personal relationship of union with the Holy Trinity. "

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During his weekly address to the general audience of 8,500 people at the Vatican on July 28, 1999, Pope John Paul II rejected the reality of a physical, literal hell as a place of eternal fire and torment. Rather, the pope said hell is separation, even in this life, from the joyful communion with God.

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mcopado said:

Think about the idea of "ashes to ashes, dust to dust" We die, our DNA breaks down and becomes earth, the earth bears food which we injest, which helps change the cells of our body...So we take in other people's dna all the time, what if we take soul fragments upon our re-assignment on earth...(Did you know that the cells in our bodies are not the same ones we were born with? on a molecular cellular level we regenerate every 7 years.)

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RomanticLass73 said:

In a sorta free association thought thing, Christiane Northrup says in her book "Mother Daughter Wisdom" that mothers physically hold tissue/DNA/cells (damn, now I'm gonna have to go look up exactly what word she used) inside their bodies for years and years and years after the baby is born. So if the DNA from the dust that nurtures the food we eat could cuase us to take soul fragments from others into us, would that mean that our mother has a bit of our soul as well? Or hmmmmmm - do we hold at bit of hers? Or both?

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entitled said:

Yes.

There's a reason that a mother's instinct runs as deeply as it does. Want to test it? Wait until the next time a check bounces/you get a bad bruise/an overdue bill comes/whatever, then call your mom. First thing she'll ask is how she can help.

There's also that connection to the father, but it doesn't run as deeply, because he didn't actually carry the child.

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