Spacing after periods.

Kumquatqueen said:

Mr or Miss and using full stops after Mr. and Mrs. and U.S.A.

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Who is so lazy they can't use a period after an abbreviation. Mr. Mrs. Dr. U.S.A.

Hell I find periods in phone numbers horrible. I've refused to do business with real estate agents and lawyers who do not properly format phone numbers. (XXX) 123-4567. If you're so lazy you can't do it properly, you're to lazy for me to trust with a job.

Salacious_Scribe said:

...Hell I find periods in phone numbers horrible. I've refused to do business with real estate agents and lawyers who do not properly format phone numbers. (XXX) 123-4567. If you're so lazy you can't do it properly, you're to lazy for me to trust with a job.

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That's a style choice. You're not refusing to do business with people who are lazy. You're refusing to do business with people who have made a modern style choice. In a lot of cases, you're just refusing to do business with people staying consistent with whatever their business card and letterhead designer recommended.

I think the old way looks kind of funny, but I wouldn't make a business decision based on it.

Salacious_Scribe said:

Who is so lazy they can't use a period after an abbreviation.

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The same kind of person who doesn't use a question mark after a question?

...

"Mr", "Dr", etc., without the period, are standard in British English. The rule of thumb there is that you don't use a period when the abbreviation ends with the same letter as the full word (Mister, Doctor, ...) - see e.g. https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/mr?q=mr

Even within the USA, it's also often accepted style (though not universal) to omit the periods in fully capitalised abbreviations like "CEO", "USA", etc. See https://www.thoughtco.com/abbreviation-for-united-states-1691023 for some discussion. The longer the initialism, the less likely you are to see the periods used - for instance, I don't think I've ever seen a court decision attributed to "S.C.O.T.U.S."

If you're concerned about "laziness", why would you abbreviate these things at all?

Bramblethorn said:

The same kind of person who doesn't use a question mark after a question.

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There's a difference between a typo and purposefully not doing something. I used a period. If there was no punctuation and this was something more formal than a message board your point would be valid.

Salacious_Scribe said:

There's a difference between a typo and purposefully not doing something..

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Exactly. If someone chooses to omit a period in a business card or similar document as a stylistic choice, you cannot infer that the person would by lazy or incompetent in their work. It's an invalid inference.

I figured the easiest way to find out what sort of coding issues still exist was to PM Laurel. I did, and it turns out that their software can't automatically filter out the non-style HTML tag. Here's what she had to say in response to my question about which is easiest:

Laurel said:

Hello,

Thanks for writing, and I hope you are well!

If the story has no bolds or italics, the best way to submit is to cut and paste the text into the text field. We assume any file submitted to us as an upload has formatting somewhere in it, and process accordingly. The software we use converts files from .rtf/.doc to HTML, but word processor templates often add weird tags which we must then remove or fix - even if the your story contains no special formatting (bolds or italics). The resulting text must be checked and corrected before posting live. So - if your work contains no special formatting at all, the best way to ensure there are not bugs or issues (and also the way to get your story posted quickly) is C&P.

If your story has formatting, there are two ways to handle this:

1. Hand code the HTML yourself - that is, add all the <strong> and <em> tags (or <b> and <i>) if you prefer) yourself. The advantage to this is that the story will be more likely to post exactly as you see it on your end. The disadvantages are 1) it's a massive hassle to do this on a long work, and 2) if you miss a closed tag, you could end up with a page full of italics or bolds.
2. Upload the file as an RTF or DOC with formatting. If you do it this way, then I strongly suggest avoiding Word styles and use only text bolding, italicizing, and centering. Word styles, for example, often add all sorts of HTML tags that cause problems when we convert the file. For this reason, uploaded files take a little longer to process on our side.

All this said - we have no preference as far as submission format. We want to accommodate whatever works for you as best as we can. In the future, we will have a more feature-rich editor which should allow you to write, format, and save long works in your control panel - as well as upload .docs/.rtfs, see how they will be displayed, make corrections, add images or audio from there, and then submit. This will 1) speed up the processing on our end, and 2) help to eliminate formatting goofs.

If you have any other questions, please let us know!

Thanks again, and stay safe and healthy in these crazy times!

Enchantment_of_Nyx said:

We're talking in the Author's forum about the format of story submissions. We'd like to know if it adds extra work for you if we submit the stories as Word files. Specifically, we were wondering about the HTML tags for formatting, like for italics. If we give it to you in a word processor format, do you then have to go back and add in the HTML tags, or is this process automatic?

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Kumquatqueen said:

Getting back to spacing - when I first learned Word, in the days of Windows 3.1 and OS/2, and WordPerfect soon after, I was told that it didn't matter if you did one space or two at the end of sentences, as the software would produce the space it judged appropriate for that font. Are the people still doing double spaced saying it produces a different result from one space nowadays, or are you using fixed-width fonts to emulate an actual typewriter?

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You weren't told correctly. I prepare manuscripts in the editing process for mainstream publishers. Still (as of last week), if an author sends in an computerized file and has put two spaces behind terminal punctuation, a separate correction pass has to be made at the file to reduce those to one space. The publishing programs aren't doing that, and in my experience in publication processes going to before the computer age, they never did.

Kumquatqueen said:

Getting back to spacing - when I first learned Word, in the days of Windows 3.1 and OS/2, and WordPerfect soon after, I was told that it didn't matter if you did one space or two at the end of sentences, as the software would produce the space it judged appropriate for that font. Are the people still doing double spaced saying it produces a different result from one space nowadays, or are you using fixed-width fonts to emulate an actual typewriter?

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I suspect somebody might have gotten confused between "you don't need two spaces because the word processor automatically creates a larger space after a period" (true) and "it doesn't make a difference whether you use one space or two" (false, in the context of word processor layout, though true for HTML).

SimonDoom said:

Exactly. If someone chooses to omit a period in a business card or similar document as a stylistic choice, you cannot infer that the person would by lazy or incompetent in their work. It's an invalid inference.

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1 I can infer anything I want.
2 Never said incompetent.
3 I have found those who have business cards with missing punctuation also send emails without the periods after abbreviations. If you are a professional and don't have professional marketing materials, then I won't do business with you.
4 Same with capitals. I have seen bisiness cared without any capitals. Can't push shift, can't work for me. I'm the boss, I get to choose who I hire. I want people who take pride in their work. Not people who cant be bothered.

For those who see this before it's removed.

Post 53, posted at 2:17 yesterday was a one line personal attack directed at someone here(not me). I reported it and when I looked back...the post was edited by the poster at 4:04 close to two hours later and changed to a much longer, and now polite post.

Edited for correct post...I said 59 initially. Someone corrected me. Thank you

Apparently while anyone else gets posts removed for personal attacks, that person gets "Pssst, change your post." Or maybe to be fair a "Knock it off, you keep making me look bad."

But never a post deleted, ever.

I'm sure this will be spun as coincidence...poster just happens to decide to not only change a post, but its entire tone two hours later, and before the report was seen.

Sorry, born at night, not last night.

To anyone who reads this, its time to start taking screen shots of this posters personal attacks-real attacks, let's not be petty- and send them to a higher authority than the forum mod before a chance for more clean up duty is performed.

I'm all for taking screen shots of personal attacks and attack through innuendo and exposing them here on the AH.

lovecraft68 said:

For those who see this before it's removed.

Post 59, posted at 2:17 yesterday was a one line personal attack directed at someone here(not me). I reported it and when I looked back...the post was edited by the poster at 4:04 close to two hours later and changed to a much longer, and now polite post.

Apparently while anyone else gets posts removed for personal attacks, that person gets "Pssst, change your post." Or maybe to be fair a "Knock it off, you keep making me look bad."

But never a post deleted, ever.

I'm sure this will be spun as coincidence...poster just happens to decide to not only change a post, but its entire tone two hours later, and before the report was seen.

Sorry, born at night, not last night.

To anyone who reads this, its time to start taking screen shots of this posters personal attacks-real attacks, let's not be petty- and send them to a higher authority than the forum mod before a chance for more clean up duty is performed.

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LC, FYI Post 59 was made at 4:10, post 58 was made at 4:06. No way 59 was made two hours before 58. Think you may be looking at the wrong post. Post 53 was posted at the time in question.

Salacious_Scribe said:

There's a difference between a typo and purposefully not doing something. I used a period. If there was no punctuation and this was something more formal than a message board your point would be valid.

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Something more formal, like a story title, for instance? Or spelling and grammar issues in story blurbs?

Going by the scores, most of your readers have been willing to read on and not leap to personal judgements based on a few missing apostrophes etc. even when these errors are in the front matter of your stories. I would recommend taking a moment to reflect on the leniency you've enjoyed there and then making an effort to pay it forward, especially when it comes to styles that are accepted in many branches of formal English.

Bramblethorn said:

Something more formal, like a story title, for instance? Or spelling and grammar issues in story blurbs?

Going by the scores, most of your readers have been willing to read on and not leap to personal judgements based on a few missing apostrophes etc. even when these errors are in the front matter of your stories. I would recommend taking a moment to reflect on the leniency you've enjoyed there and then making an effort to pay it forward, especially when it comes to styles that are accepted in many branches of formal English.

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AmI getting paid? Then it's not professional. Wish I had the kind of time and energy to do things that you waste harassing people. Guess your just another troll I'm going to ignore.

Learn the difference between PROFESSIONAL and fun. If I was trying to make money with my stories I would take more care. I don't get paid, and I have a life outside lit, so forgive me if I don't try to achieve perfection.

Salacious_Scribe said:

LC, FYI Post 59 was made at 4:10, post 58 was made at 4:06. No way 59 was made two hours before 58. Think you may be looking at the wrong post. Post 53 was posted at the time in question.

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That's just LC scrutinizing and stretching everything for an opportunity to attack and stalk people and play King of the Board. LC's gotta do what LC does on the discussion board.

KeithD said:

That's just LC attacking and stalking people. LC's gotta do what LC does on the discussion board.

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Says the guy attacking and stalking me in another thread.
TBH you're both assholes and have been since I joined. Both of you have attacked me for my comments. Both of you have defended me from the other.

If I didn't have such a fucked up perverse sense of humor I would have blocked both of you years ago.

Salacious_Scribe said:

Says the guy attacking and stalking me in another thread.
TBH you're both assholes and have been since I joined. Both of you have attacked me for my comments. Both of you have defended me from the other.

If I didn't have such a fucked up perverse sense of humor I would have blocked both of you years ago.

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You could certainly do that now if that's your perception.

Salacious_Scribe said:

LC, FYI Post 59 was made at 4:10, post 58 was made at 4:06. No way 59 was made two hours before 58. Think you may be looking at the wrong post. Post 53 was posted at the time in question.

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Correct, someone let me know that in a PM.

Small numbers, bad eyes because I'm too vain to wear my glasses as much as I should.

Salacious_Scribe said:

Who is so lazy they can't use a period after an abbreviation. Mr. Mrs. Dr. U.S.A.

Hell I find periods in phone numbers horrible. I've refused to do business with real estate agents and lawyers who do not properly format phone numbers. (XXX) 123-4567. If you're so lazy you can't do it properly, you're to lazy for me to trust with a job.

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Salacious_Scribe said:

1 I can infer anything I want.
2 Never said incompetent.

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Your previous message clearly implied that people who don't use your preferred style for abbreviations can't be trusted to do their job properly. That's very obviously an aspersion on their competence. You're splitting hairs here.

Salacious_Scribe said:

If there was no punctuation and this was something more formal than a message board your point would be valid.

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Salacious_Scribe said:

AmI getting paid? Then it's not [/b]professional[/b]. Wish I had the kind of time and energy to do things that you waste harassing people. Guess your just another troll I'm going to ignore.

Learn the difference between PROFESSIONAL and fun. If I was trying to make money with my stories I would take more care. I don't get paid, and I have a life outside lit, so forgive me if I don't try to achieve perfection.

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Noting that here you've shifted the goalposts from "formal" to "professional". They're not the same thing. A story posting might not be as formal as a business document, but it most certainly is "more formal than a message board" - which is the standard you offered, until I pointed out that you weren't meeting it.

Nobody here is criticising you for not trying for perfection. Just pointing out that the inhabitants of frangible domiciles should refrain from yeeting lithic projectiles.

Salacious_Scribe said:

If I didn't have such a fucked up perverse sense of humor I would have blocked both of you years ago.

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Out of curiosity, who were you back then?

I'm going to say something here, the first thing is I am going to publicly state something, and the reason I'm doing it is I keep my word, and if I say it in view of other people, that's extra enforcement for me to keep my word.

This will be my last post addressing Pilot(always going to be that to me) both directly and in general.

Unlike him, I consider other people-or try to, I am far from perfect and don't always succeed-and don't want to be a distraction in a place that is supposed to be a distraction from real life crap or where people are trying to learn some things or have some fun. This right here, is the difference between us, Pilot will never say he's wrong, or can be a twit or own anything. He's the only perfect person here, he'll tell you himself.

I am not a fan of bullying, especially from people who bully then play victim. If I shoot off and someone shoots back, I have no issue taking that. Want to dish it, have to take it was how I was raised.

But I insert myself in those situations because my attitude here and in real life is if someone wants a fight, fights here, you can stop picking on other people, and pick at me. When one person is allowed to run unchecked by the 'police' here then sometimes self policing is required, even if it means looking as dumb as the other person. We both look dumb, but I'm the one who realizes it.

But for the sake of people here I like and the forum itself I will leave it at this post.

Pilot, I feel bad for you. I mean it, I'm not being funny. This is not a dig or an attack.

You're miserable. You're mean spirited, you can't make a joke or take a joke. People joke and you come in self defensive and swinging. You always have a chip on your shoulder and have to be better than anyone else. You did what? Well I did ten times that!. That's fear and insecurity and low self esteem tinged with bitterness, masked as bravado. Textbook.

Worse, there is no joy in you even when talking about stories/writing. Its always how many and how many and I wrote this many...next next next. There is no passion when you describe writing or talk about something you wrote. Its clinical, machine like, assembly line race to the next number.

When someone here is happy with what they do and it doesn't agree with you, you need to try and squash that, make everyone as miserable as you. Misery loves company.

I'm no longer going to keep you company.

Lighten up. Bitterness only hurts the one who harbors it.

You could have fooled me that you aren't a fan of bullying. You are a classic bully. I don't obsess over you and go after you as you do me. I don't begrudge you any success you have; I'm not in competition with you in any way. What you write doesn't have anything to do with me. I don't research you and follow you around and attack you and post long-winded crap about you like this right here--although I didn't finish reading it. You are a violent, sick pup. And I don't believe for a nanosecond that you're going to stop obsessing over and monitoring and researching and attacking me on the board. It's what you've done for over ten years now.

I'd say fuck off, but you can't do it--you just can't stop attacking me.