Advice!

Ok im a rather newbieish dom but not TOTAL new to it, and there is this girl who definetly has submissive tendencies but has no experience being a sub.

She's a very horny little thing and it doesn't take me much to get her wet.

I want to give her things to do in public, i tell her what to do and she does them, to tease guys and get them all hard for her, because thats a big turn on for her but i don't really know WHAT to get her to do.

I've started out slow, today (1st time for her, so i started off safe) she was at a bus station waiting for a bus, there was a hot guy across from her in his 30's and i got her to tease him by showing him her panties (she was wearing a skirt), sucking and licking her fingers, looking at him seductively, rubbing her nipple and rubbing her thighs.

The guy was definetly enjoying the show.

First off i want to know whether what i told her to do was any good (considering it was her 1st time doing anything like this, my 1st time ordering her and delibrately started out safe) and second off if anyone can give me some advice on what else i should get her to do.

Now im pretty sure she's not interested in sucking strangers cocks (not yet anyway!) so please don't just say that or a equivelent, but any advice is much appreciated!

My one concern is that if she flirts aggressively, especially with one guy, he will, reasonably enough, assume that he can aggressively approach her. And that's not safe.

An easy and fairly safe thing for her to do, might be to dress in a very striking outfit, one that stands out in some way. I remember one woman who made a splash while waiting in line at a bank by wearing a very tight white mini dress and boots. And I recall this other girl in brown leather short-shorts and a matching half-top who had the whole of Starbucks gawking at her.

She can then go to places at peak guy hours (coffee houses prior to work hours when a lot of men get their lattes, banks at lunch time, etc.). If she bends to say, sign her name or drops something and crouches, reaches up so her skirts rides up, etc. these will arouse the guys waiting in line, but not put her at risk from any one guy thinking she's deliberately flirting with HIM and he ought to aggressively approach her.

CuriousJack said:

Ok im a rather newbieish dom but not TOTAL new to it, and there is this girl who definetly has submissive tendencies but has no experience being a sub.

She's a very horny little thing and it doesn't take me much to get her wet.

I want to give her things to do in public, i tell her what to do and she does them, to tease guys and get them all hard for her, because thats a big turn on for her but i don't really know WHAT to get her to do.

I've started out slow, today (1st time for her, so i started off safe) she was at a bus station waiting for a bus, there was a hot guy across from her in his 30's and i got her to tease him by showing him her panties (she was wearing a skirt), sucking and licking her fingers, looking at him seductively, rubbing her nipple and rubbing her thighs.

The guy was definetly enjoying the show.

First off i want to know whether what i told her to do was any good (considering it was her 1st time doing anything like this, my 1st time ordering her and delibrately started out safe) and second off if anyone can give me some advice on what else i should get her to do.

Now im pretty sure she's not interested in sucking strangers cocks (not yet anyway!) so please don't just say that or a equivelent, but any advice is much appreciated!

Click to expand...

Damn your scary Jack ( not in a good way ) and have huge potential to get that girl raped , murdered and dumped in a lane somewhere encouraging her to conduct like that . I don't think "Dominant" is a title you could consider assuming currently. A Dominant in fact in taking on a submissive for either short term scening or a longer term relationship or commitment takes on a huge responsibility. I am not 'reading' concern in anything you have stated to date , just a desire to be reckless with the life of another .

Ohh and just for your education Dominants don't generally 'order' (in the way I believe you are implying) the point is they have earnt their submissives trust to a degree that he/she will comply . Hence the word 'submit'.

Ever heard the credo "Safe , Sane, Constentual", I guess not huh. Perhaps if you have aspirations to be a Dominant for roleplay at least educate yourself first before you encourage naive potential victems into your games.

www.castlerealm.com is a reasonable starting point if you are in any way sincere. If my comments seem hostile towards your post then you are accurate in that at least.

<<hijack>>hugging on Rebecca Merry Christmas, you Antipodean Goddess, you!<<end hijack>>

Okay, Jack, before you get her into more trouble than she can safely handle, check out TN Voyeur's "best way to humiliate a submissive" thread. I know you're not looking for that BUT, there's a pretty good discussion going on there about safety, legality and including strangers without their consent. Also the scene you represent in your post is similar to what's being discussed there, sans humiliation.

Meanwhile, I'm going to start the library chorus.... Up yonder at the top of the forum is a sticky library, er library sticky. You can find lots of information for newbies there.

Rebacca, first off i am not "ordering" her to do anything, i SUGGESTED this entire thing to her and she thought it was a great idea.

If she doesn't want to do anything i suggest, thats fine with me, and when i SUGGEST something to her, thats what i do, suggest, not "demand" or "order".

Infact she even asked me to give her something a bit more "extreme" to do, but i choose against it.

Not to mention the fact that she done it in a public BUS TERMINAL, with oh lets see about 20-30 people around, maybe more!

Don't ever post in this thread again offering your "advice".

Curious Jack said:

Ok im a rather newbieish dom but not TOTAL new to it, and there is this girl who definetly has submissive tendencies but has no experience being a sub.

She's a very horny little thing and it doesn't take me much to get her wet.

I want to give her things to do in public, i tell her what to do and she does them, to tease guys and get them all hard for her, because thats a big turn on for her but i don't really know WHAT to get her to do.

I've started out slow, today (1st time for her, so i started off safe) she was at a bus station waiting for a bus, there was a hot guy across from her in his 30's and i got her to tease him by showing him her panties (she was wearing a skirt), sucking and licking her fingers, looking at him seductively, rubbing her nipple and rubbing her thighs.

The guy was definetly enjoying the show.

First off i want to know whether what i told her to do was any good (considering it was her 1st time doing anything like this, my 1st time ordering her and delibrately started out safe) and second off if anyone can give me some advice on what else i should get her to do.

Now im pretty sure she's not interested in sucking strangers cocks (not yet anyway!) so please don't just say that or a equivelent, but any advice is much appreciated!

Click to expand...

Actually, you kinda did say you "ordered" her to do it, right here:

jack said:

(considering it was her 1st time doing anything like this, my 1st time ordering her and delibrately started out safe)

Click to expand...

A further suggestion...

You asked for advice, she gave it. You don't have to take it if you don't want to; you can ignore it if you want to, but IMHO, it's not necessary to be an ass about it. This is a public forum, and anyone can post in any thread that has not been locked.

Jack.

If you don't want people to respond on a topic, then don't post to a public forum.

The fact you feel it neccessary to ask about this topic or advice on what things you can or cannot do safely, is a pretty good indication you shouldn't be pursuing this. Your lack of knowledge shows your lack of control. And if you haven't thought at least this part through, it leaves one to wonder if either of you have thought through the possible consequenses which might occur.

you say she is not ready to suck a strangers cock. Then I guess you are prepared to take on 1-3 guys should they decide to take her to the bathroom at knife point and if your not, then maybe she should understand something like that "could happen" and she will end up getting fucked and forced to suck a strangers cock should things get out of hand.

In truth your original post comes off as an excited school boy who enjoys showing off their latest trained pet trick.

You want some advice? The type of play that involves strangers is in my opinion edge play as you never know what could actually happen. Unless you are both prepared to deal with the consequenses of what could happen, maybe you should post pone doing this sort of thing till you are both ready to accept the risks involved. Then if this is something you both decide you want to do, then good luck and I hope nothing bad happens.

Just because she wants to do something extreme or dangerious doesn't mean you have to indulge it.

Oh and you really do not have any authority to tell anyone where they can or cannot post. To think you would even presume to do so is kinda funny.

bye.

Uhhh people wind up "fucked and forced to suck strangers cocks" by something as simple as walking home from work with bad timing. I'm hearing shades of "she's asking for it" here.

Frankly I don't think that slutty behavior at a bus stop with other people all around incurs rape more easily than anything else, however it might incur an indecent exposure citation or kids might be riding by in a car, do you really want your four year old in a car seat subjected to some lady showing off her ass? And are you prepared to pay any tickets or fines that your games might incur?

If you're willing to be a gent and deal with the fallout, I say perv on.

Netzach said:

Uhhh people wind up "fucked and forced to suck strangers cocks" by something as simple as walking home from work with bad timing. I'm hearing shades of "she's asking for it" here.

Frankly I don't think that slutty behavior at a bus stop with other people all around incurs rape more easily than anything else, however it might incur an indecent exposure citation or kids might be riding by in a car, do you really want your four year old in a car seat subjected to some lady showing off her ass? And are you prepared to pay any tickets or fines that your games might incur?

If you're willing to be a gent and deal with the fallout, I say perv on.

Click to expand...

I agree with your main point, I also agree that rape or forced sex happens oftens even without any slutty behavior involved...however I disagree that acting in this way does not increase the risk of something happening.

In a bus terminal maybe no...depends on what part of town the terminal is in...but even then, what's to say when she leaves after she made sure to get a strang guy aroused...that he doesnt then follow her home and pay her a visit? Or maybe not even him but an observer who watched the whole thing and she isn't even aware he was watching.

To actively act slutty with the intent to arouse a man is quite different than just walking home and getting grabbed. Its bad enough that, that happens without someone acting slutty let alone trying to get someone aroused on purpose.

What if the man decided to approach her thinking she is genuinely interested in him...and then what? She tells him to fuck off? she gets up and leaves? She tells him she is just playing with him? Wonder what sort of anger would well up inside a man if a woman sat there and made sure she had his attention and started letting him look up her skirt and touching her nipples and looking at him seductively then find out she was just being a tease. Most men would not be happy about it...maybe 8 out of ten would just walk off pissed for being played...but there is always them two who take it much more personal than that.

If you mess with the bull you will get the horns and being a tease can and will eventually lead to a situation of hot water. If she is prepared to accept the ultimate risks, then fine perv on...and like you said hopefully they don't get a citation for acting lewdly in public.

But there is a huge difference in a woman walking home and a woman acting in such a way to ensure a man is aroused then pull the carrot away from him. It edgy... and asking for trouble. If you are preapred to live with the consequences if said trouble comes, then fine...at least you know the risks.

CuriousJack said:

Don't ever post in this thread again offering your "advice".

Click to expand...

Sorry to say you don't get to say who posts to a thread or in what way, but more than that, your response sounds more like you want ego stroking than legitimate ideas and thoughts from people. Good thing about this forum is people do have opinions and are not afraid to voice them thus increasing the flow of information and experience.

Catalina

I dunno, that all sounded kinda hot to me and i would do it without doubt if i was told to...hell i HAVE done it

Is it just me or does everyone seem kinda judgemental around here as of late?

CuriousJack said:

Rebacca, first off i am not "ordering" her to do anything, i SUGGESTED this entire thing to her and she thought it was a great idea.

If she doesn't want to do anything i suggest, thats fine with me, and when i SUGGEST something to her, thats what i do, suggest, not "demand" or "order".

Infact she even asked me to give her something a bit more "extreme" to do, but i choose against it.

Not to mention the fact that she done it in a public BUS TERMINAL, with oh lets see about 20-30 people around, maybe more!

Don't ever post in this thread again offering your "advice".

Click to expand...

Domin-ation!

RJMasters said:

To actively act slutty with the intent to arouse a man is quite different than just walking home and getting grabbed. Its bad enough that, that happens without someone acting slutty let alone trying to get someone aroused on purpose.

What if the man decided to approach her thinking she is genuinely interested in him...and then what? She tells him to fuck off? she gets up and leaves? She tells him she is just playing with him? Wonder what sort of anger would well up inside a man if a woman sat there and made sure she had his attention and started letting him look up her skirt and touching her nipples and looking at him seductively then find out she was just being a tease. Most men would not be happy about it...maybe 8 out of ten would just walk off pissed for being played...but there is always them two who take it much more personal than that.

If you mess with the bull you will get the horns and being a tease can and will eventually lead to a situation of hot water. If she is prepared to accept the ultimate risks, then fine perv on...and like you said hopefully they don't get a citation for acting lewdly in public.

But there is a huge difference in a woman walking home and a woman acting in such a way to ensure a man is aroused then pull the carrot away from him. It edgy... and asking for trouble. If you are preapred to live with the consequences if said trouble comes, then fine...at least you know the risks.

Click to expand...

I hate to flame, but this is bothering the shit out of me.

Do you really live in 1950?

We live in a society of thong underwear riding way high up over the tops of jeans. Women guess what, go out. Women get laid. Women actually enjoy one night stands sometimes without feelings of shame regret and self hatred. Sometimes we get to play out our sexuality in drunken unsafe DUMB ways too, something men have enjoyed the privilege of doing for centuries. And I don't know a SINGLE person who has been stranger raped because she was actively being sexy, though unfortunately I know a solid handful of women who have been assaulted by people they don't know, considerably more who did know who assaulted them.

Or maybe if she DOES get assaulted because she was out in public playing around you'll be the one to think she deserves it.

BEING an obvious tease is not the issue, being percieved as a tease by a lunatic who wants to be set off is, and he will decide you are speaking to him sexually no matter what you are doing, from bathing the dog to talking to your girlfriends.

You know what? Being a tease and inspiring erections is my livelihood. I don't do it hitching up my skirts at bus stops, but I definitely do it in my own way.

"You're gonna get raped you're just asking for it" is something I expect to hear from vice squad, not people in the communities who use the services of women like me. So far, knock wood, no crazies. Yeah I'm playing with fire but so is mr. I-dangle-off-girders posting above me and nobody's lecturing him.

Put the fucking responsibility where it lies, which is with men, able to put that stupid thing back in their pants and deal with the fact that they CAN be teased.

Netzach said:

I hate to flame, but this is bothering the shit out of me.

Do you really live in 1950?

We live in a society of thong underwear riding way high up over the tops of jeans. Women guess what, go out. Women get laid. Women actually enjoy one night stands sometimes without feelings of shame regret and self hatred. Sometimes we get to play out our sexuality in drunken unsafe DUMB ways too, something men have enjoyed the privilege of doing for centuries. And I don't know a SINGLE person who has been stranger raped because she was actively being sexy, though unfortunately I know a solid handful of women who have been assaulted by people they don't know, considerably more who did know who assaulted them.

Or maybe if she DOES get assaulted because she was out in public playing around you'll be the one to think she deserves it.

BEING an obvious tease is not the issue, being percieved as a tease by a lunatic who wants to be set off is, and he will decide you are speaking to him sexually no matter what you are doing, from bathing the dog to talking to your girlfriends.

You know what? Being a tease and inspiring erections is my livelihood. I don't do it hitching up my skirts at bus stops, but I definitely do it in my own way.

"You're gonna get raped you're just asking for it" is something I expect to hear from vice squad, not people in the communities who use the services of women like me. So far, knock wood, no crazies. Yeah I'm playing with fire but so is mr. I-dangle-off-girders posting above me and nobody's lecturing him.

Put the fucking responsibility where it lies, which is with men, able to put that stupid thing back in their pants and deal with the fact that they CAN be teased.

Click to expand...

A M E N!

Netzach said:

I hate to flame, but this is bothering the shit out of me.

Do you really live in 1950?

We live in a society of thong underwear riding way high up over the tops of jeans. Women guess what, go out. Women get laid. Women actually enjoy one night stands sometimes without feelings of shame regret and self hatred. Sometimes we get to play out our sexuality in drunken unsafe DUMB ways too, something men have enjoyed the privilege of doing for centuries. And I don't know a SINGLE person who has been stranger raped because she was actively being sexy, though unfortunately I know a solid handful of women who have been assaulted by people they don't know, considerably more who did know who assaulted them.

Or maybe if she DOES get assaulted because she was out in public playing around you'll be the one to think she deserves it.

BEING an obvious tease is not the issue, being percieved as a tease by a lunatic who wants to be set off is, and he will decide you are speaking to him sexually no matter what you are doing, from bathing the dog to talking to your girlfriends.

You know what? Being a tease and inspiring erections is my livelihood. I don't do it hitching up my skirts at bus stops, but I definitely do it in my own way.

"You're gonna get raped you're just asking for it" is something I expect to hear from vice squad, not people in the communities who use the services of women like me. So far, knock wood, no crazies. Yeah I'm playing with fire but so is mr. I-dangle-off-girders posting above me and nobody's lecturing him.

Put the fucking responsibility where it lies, which is with men, able to put that stupid thing back in their pants and deal with the fact that they CAN be teased.

Click to expand...

Thanks Net

I Netzach

Netzach said:

I hate to flame, but this is bothering the shit out of me.

Do you really live in 1950?

We live in a society of thong underwear riding way high up over the tops of jeans. Women guess what, go out. Women get laid. Women actually enjoy one night stands sometimes without feelings of shame regret and self hatred. Sometimes we get to play out our sexuality in drunken unsafe DUMB ways too, something men have enjoyed the privilege of doing for centuries. And I don't know a SINGLE person who has been stranger raped because she was actively being sexy, though unfortunately I know a solid handful of women who have been assaulted by people they don't know, considerably more who did know who assaulted them.

Or maybe if she DOES get assaulted because she was out in public playing around you'll be the one to think she deserves it.

BEING an obvious tease is not the issue, being percieved as a tease by a lunatic who wants to be set off is, and he will decide you are speaking to him sexually no matter what you are doing, from bathing the dog to talking to your girlfriends.

You know what? Being a tease and inspiring erections is my livelihood. I don't do it hitching up my skirts at bus stops, but I definitely do it in my own way.

"You're gonna get raped you're just asking for it" is something I expect to hear from vice squad, not people in the communities who use the services of women like me. So far, knock wood, no crazies. Yeah I'm playing with fire but so is mr. I-dangle-off-girders posting above me and nobody's lecturing him.

Put the fucking responsibility where it lies, which is with men, able to put that stupid thing back in their pants and deal with the fact that they CAN be teased.

Click to expand...

Could not have said it better, so I won't. But in my next life Netz, will you marry me?

I suspect as in most written environments in as much as in people having different life experiences there is 'range' for perception.

I do not prescribe to the notion that if a woman is dressed 'provocatively' that she is in anyway inviting rape which I believe has little to do with sex and everything to do with power. Irrespective of the fact that the actual blame belongs assuredly and totally with the aggressor/rapist/criminal, in the big wide world certain behaviours will in fact be considered inducement albeit because the potential aggressor has a dysfunctional perception of what gives him right to such conduct.

We live with security, alarms , guns and varying other forms of self protection in these times. Its a reality of self preservation. Leaving your home unlocked is not the 'welcome mat' for assault however its certainly more predominant that being seen to do so signals 'opportunity'. Surely most of us will see fit to protect ourselves at least as much as we do our material possessions ?

Really comes down to 'common sense' or is that just all to politically incorrect in this environment ? Flirting, teasing is delicious stuff, I thrive on it daily having said that with a degree of personal responsibility. My version of it is a much more sophisticated than sitting with my legs open in a public bus stop. Its generally about communication and inducing a sense of well being in myself and others around me.

Returning back to the original post by CuriousJack could I be more specific ?

I had two major issues. The first being that I have immense respect for the Dominants in my life. The word' Dominant' to me has never just been a term for a cluster of kinks or sexual orientation it comes with much more inherent qualities as diverse as the Dominants that I personally know and respect. So CuriousJack taking on the mantle in the cavalier manner he chose to bothered me.

My second issue really is the cliched stereotyping of what is submissive behaviour. The more I read the more I see a culture which is becoming a sad parody of its own fiction. I am not explaining myself any further at this stage, you either get 'it' or you don't. Either way it won't affect me. I have pride in my submission its well founded ,while I hope to continue to learn, grow and extend my personal experiences emotionally, intellectually , spiritually and the thread of sexuality as a submissive that transfers through all I have no need to betray my own privacy past a point in order to appear salacious enough for the Community.

I also respectfully request that if you are reading this, that you will keep in mind that I am stating my opinions reflective of my life and experiences. Challenge them as you may it will make little difference to me in my day to day life.

It will however give me cause to consider other points which brings back to the full circle as to why I commented here in the first place. I wish you well.

I have to agree with the crowd that said what you had her do was not safe. For the folks who look at the SSC aspect of it. Did that stranger consent to being part of your "scene"? I doubt it. Now, what would have happened if that would have been an off duty cop? How would you have explained that? What about a serial rapist who could have followed her and attacked her? What about if there would have been a young child around?

I know that you say you never ordered her to do it. In a way, you did. By you "suggesting" to her, she coudl have perceived it as an order. Afterall, wasnt't that some of what happened during the Nurenburg trials?

Now, as for you not wanting people to reply to your post, if you post on a public forum, you get the responses that you get. Wether they be positive or negative. From what I get out of your description, it sounds like you are new to being a Dom. It also sounds like your more of a swinger than anything else. But that is my opinion. And yes, I know, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.

Netzach said:

And I don't know a SINGLE person who has been stranger raped because she was actively being sexy

Click to expand...

I do. A girl who lived down the hall from me in college.

At a big party, she saw a guy she didn't know. To get his attention, she started giving him suggestive looks across the room, lifting her skirt provocatively, etc.

She got his attention all right. When she went down the hall to go to the bathroom, he followed her. Dragged her into an empty room and raped her, then came back to the party to laugh and boast to his friends about what he had done. No one heard her screaming because the music was so loud.

Fast forward to one year ago. My stepson returned home from college with a very disturbing tale (backed up by accounts in the campus newspaper). Hazing at one of his school's sororities included an assignment given to a particularly shy girl. She was told to walk into the middle of a fraternity meeting, strip to her bra and panties, and then return to her dorm (sans skirt and top).

Unfortunately for her, she was ordered to go on a night when most of the frat boys were not only drunk, but entertaining quite a few frat brothers from a different college across town. The girl was raped - not by one guy, but nine.

Netzach said:

Put the fucking responsibility where it lies, which is with men, able to put that stupid thing back in their pants and deal with the fact that they CAN be teased.

Click to expand...

Of course the responsibility for rape lies with the rapist.

And, of course, men should be "able to put that stupid thing back in their pants and deal with the fact that they CAN be teased". But the fact is that many men clearly can not.

And consider what it would feel like to be one of the girls who dreamt up that hazing assignment. I would not want to be in that position. Would you?

Taking this type of risk for yourself is one thing. But suggesting, encouraging, or ordering another person to do it is something else altogether.

Netzach said:

I hate to flame

Click to expand...

No you don't Netzach. Come on admit it you love to flame me when ever you get the chance

Netzach said:

BEING an obvious tease is not the issue, being percieved as a tease by a lunatic who wants to be set off is, and he will decide you are speaking to him sexually no matter what you are doing, from bathing the dog to talking to your girlfriends.

Click to expand...

BEING an obvious tease is the issue. You are correct that if you are dealing with a lunatic that precieves everything in a sexual manner then mute is the point in how she is acting.

However to act "with intent" to turn some guy on and not just some light flirtation but rubbing her nipples and exposing herself making sure he is getting the message just for a laugh, is not a safe thing to do.

And no Netzach you know me better than that....You know I do not condone unconsentual sex. No I would not be one who would say she deserved it, as obviously no one deserves to be raped regardless. But that does not mean I have approve or accept that a woman can act in such a manner without thinking there could be unsafe consequences.

Netzach said:

You know what? Being a tease and inspiring erections is my livelihood. I don't do it hitching up my skirts at bus stops, but I definitely do it in my own way.

Click to expand...

What you do for a livelihood is way different than what is being expressed in this thread. the clients that you inspire to erection are there because they want to be teased and aroused. What you do is consentual, a woman doing what is described in this thread is not consentual.

Netzach said:

Put the fucking responsibility where it lies, which is with men, able to put that stupid thing back in their pants and deal with the fact that they CAN be teased.

Click to expand...

You want me to put the fucking responsibility where it belongs? Then fine here it is ...

Its a shared responsibility by both men and women. If you want to say that a woman can act in this manner and not expect men to not act upon it then I don't care if its 1950 or now, your fooling yourself to think consequences will not happen. And you can blame men for not having self control, although don't trip over missing the fact that the woman invioved here doesn't seem to have much self control either.

And we are not talking about the norm here...we are not talking about how a woman dresses or wears thongs and such. We are talking about someone making a concious choice to arouse with intent....with intent. Sure wearing a sexy dress and going to the club is about looking good, and attracting attention and there is nothing wrong with that within the norms of society as it is today...but that is different than what is being described here.

Women need to accept their own responsibility in how they are acting just as much as men do. When either of them act in a manner that ignores the consequences of "their own actions", then to that reckless extent, they share in the blame of what happens.

Most stranger rape is about power, rage, and control, not sex.

But quite frankly, if you are going to strip down to your underwear while alone in a house with a group of testosterone loaded drunk men...
I am not saying she asked for it, but once she got there and saw the situation, she may have wanted to rethink. Things like this are the reason universities in this province don't support frats/sororities. You're not even allowed to have them on-campus or advertise them here.

catalina_francisco said:

Sorry to say you don't get to say who posts to a thread or in what way, but more than that, your response sounds more like you want ego stroking than legitimate ideas and thoughts from people. Good thing about this forum is people do have opinions and are not afraid to voice them thus increasing the flow of information and experience.

Catalina

Click to expand...

Oh and Jack, if you're still reading, just to clarify, this is one of the two people (well I guess it's technically three including Catalina and Francisco) who can tell people not to post, including you. Luckily for you she's very tolerant.

brioche said:

But quite frankly, if you are going to strip down to your underwear while alone in a house with a group of testosterone loaded drunk men... I am not saying she asked for it, but once she got there and saw the situation, she may have wanted to rethink.

Click to expand...

As Rebecca said, it "really comes down to 'common sense'".

But the issue here is not whether women should take this type of risk for themselves. That is an individual choice.

The issue is whether one person should encourage/suggest/order someone else to take this type of risk. My personal opinion is that they should not.

Alice

brioche said:

Most stranger rape is about power, rage, and control, not sex.

Click to expand...

This strikes me as funny on a board where half the guys express their sexuality through power and control (and rage as well; but that's one of our closet skeletons).


OK, it isn't often that I do a massive cut and paste, and apologies to all those annoyed by such things; but here is a great article dealing with this issue from the best self-defense site I've ever seen: http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/.

Before you read further, please do something Clarify in your own mind your definitions of blame and responsibility.

Please do this before you read on.

Our Random House Unabridged defines blame as:
1) to place the responsibility for (a fault, error, etc.) on a person. 2) to find fault with, to censure 3) US slang; to blast (used as a humorous imperative or opative. 4) to blame, at fault, censurable 5) act of attributing fault, censure or reproof. 6) responsibility for anything deserving of censure.

Whereas responsibility is defined as
1) The state or fact of being responsible. 2) an instance of being responsible 3) a particular burden or obligation on a person who is responsible. 4) something for which someone is responsible 5) reliability or dependability, esp. in meeting debts or payments 6) on one's own responsibility, on one's own initiative or authority.

Responsibility is mentioned twice in the definition of blame, but never is blame mentioned in the definition of responsibility. But neither the qualification of the one placing the blame or the accuracy of the charge is established. In other words, just because someone is blaming you for something doesn't make it true.

That should tell you something. What else is interesting is how the words censure and fault -- which play such a large part in the definition of blame -- are never mentioned in the definition of responsibility.

But perhaps the most important difference between the two words is blame is focused on directing responsibility for failure - and your ire - onto others. Blame does not require you to meet any consistent standards of behavior other than what you feel is appropriate for the situation. Whereas, responsibility does. And it requires you to consistently meet these established standards of behavior. Blame really isn't about other people, it is about you passing the buck. Responsibility is about what you do to work with other people.

What many people miss is the fact that responsibility is not only about self, however, but about empowerment. Because with responsibility comes power. You do not get power without accepting responsibility.

So why is blame so appealing?

Blame Is Lame
If it were just useless, blame wouldn't be so bad. But we consider it one of the most damaging and dangerous concepts that has crept into self-defense training and post-incident counseling.

Like a raven raucously screeching with indignation from the safety of the tree branches, it seems you cannot avoid hearing about blame when it comes to self-defense, crime and violence. Unfortunately, while everyone is playing hot potato with the whose fault an incident was, three critical components are overlooked:

1) People get hurt.
2) Blame is a form of damage control, and no damage control is ever as good as prevention.
3) There is nobody on this planet who is more concerned about your personal safety than you.

If you insist on putting other issues above this, (such as pride, party-going, anger, emotions, invading other people's space, self-esteem, aggressiveness, your supposed "right" to do dangerous things, etc.) you can easily put yourself into a position where you can be successfully attacked. Yes, the attacker is wrong. Yes, he is to blame for his actions. Yes, you were the one who was wronged. But ...

WHO CARES?

You are the one who was hurt. You are the one who was traumatized. You are the one whose life was destroyed. You are the one who has to live with that damage for the rest of your life. You are the one who is suffering PTSD. And we hate to say this, but the rest of the world doesn't care. It's kind of busy with its own problems. What was the most traumatic and horrible event in your life will be met outside your small circle of friends with a "gee, I'm sorry to hear that" and a quick change of subject.

What's even worse (having dealt with rapists, abusers, violent criminals and many other brands of low-lifes for many years) we can assure you, you can blame them all you want and they don't give a damn. In fact, it won't bother them at all. These people are so self-absorbed that unless they are immediately faced by legal action, physical repercussions or are in some other way inconvenienced, they don't care how much you hate them. Like water off a duck's back, the blame and hatred of others has no effect. It will not teach them a lesson, it won't make them suffer, in fact, they won't even feel guilty about what they have done. They're generally too busy blaming others themselves.

And if you do pursue legal action against them, do not be surprised if they hate you for "ruining their lives." It would not be accurate to say the idea that they did anything wrong doesn't even enter their minds, but it dies a grisly death throwing itself against the fortified walls of self -justification, rationalizations and self-pity. That's right: self-pity. These people are so self-absorbed that they are going to turn around and blame you for their misfortune.

So while it may seem like an overwhelming force within you, in the real world, it doesn't carry much weight.
Return to top of page



The blaming Mindset Can Justify Your Own Bad Behavior
While this may seem like an overly harsh statement, that opinion changes when you realize the kind of mindset that so quickly adopts blame as self-defense posture is exactly the one that will put you in front of, otherwise avoidable, danger.

It is not uncommon for people who engage in blaming behavior to also engage in selfish behavior. And as long as they are getting benefit from it -- whether monetary, emotional, comfort or entertainment -- they will continue to engage in those actions. When this kind of behavior does NOT produce the desired results, however, it is always someone or something else's fault.

For example, a "blamer" who decides to skip work once too often will maintain that it was the fact that the boss didn't like her that resulted in her being fired. She will disavow that her regularly (and for selfish and lazy reasons) opting not to go to work had anything to do with it. Often such a person will either minimize the amount of time she was absent or try to spread culpability to others with comments like "well everyone else did it, too. I didn't do it anymore than anybody else ... the only reason I got fired for it is because the boss hates me!" (Thereby returning to blame). It should also be noted that someone who regularly chooses to skip work because they "don't feel like going in" is also prone to other slipshod habits. This is another common trait of a person who works only to her 'comfort level.' And this is often the source of the animosity directed at such a person. She will interpret it as persecution, however, totally ignoring her contribution to the situation.

People who blame others tend to overemphasize themselves and underemphasize the negative effects of their actions. Many of their behaviors are based on self-gratification -- whether overtly or subtly. Many of their actions operate around either gaining something pleasurable and avoiding (or venting) about something unpleasant -- like emotions or repercussions. These people often suffer from low self-esteem. Their actions tend to revolve around either bolstering themselves or deflecting any negative that could threaten that self-esteem.

A good way to understand how blame works is that such people have "cause-and-effect radar" that only works one way. The only things that register are how something affects them and their feelings -- which they use to justify their actions. What isn't picked up is how their behaviors or words affect others -- or how they are coming across to others.

The blaming mindset is a slippery slope. One that is difficult to self-recognize because it is self-reinforcing. In short, you don't know that you are doing it because it seems logical and normal. It isn't until you step outside this frame of reference that you will notice the imbalance in the flow of cause and effect.

Where all of this becomes germane to sexual assault is that self-gratifying behavior is often synonymous with high risk behavior.
Return to top of page



Constant Crisis: Do You Blame Others?
Basically if things keep going wrong in your life, if you keep on finding yourself in chaotic situations, if there is always some kind of crisis going on or if things "just keep on happening to you" -- you need to do a radar check.

This often entails asking people for an outside perspective -- and then listening to them. But the old adage of "birds of a feather flock together" also holds true. You need to ask people outside your circle of close friends and family. The reason people are your friends is that you all tend to think alike. You need to get an outside, objective opinion. It is best to ask professional counselors, but stable, successful, mature people also are good sources of information.

Unfortunately, when they do this, many people hear things that they don't want to hear -- that is why they don't normally ask. Odds are, what you are going to be told is NOT what you want to do. It is not going to be comfortable. It is not going to give you benediction for your actions and emotions. This is, however, a critical perspective to have because it shows you how other people think and how they perceive you.

And that is going to determine how people will treat you.

Even if you don't agree with what they are saying, ask yourself "what was the reasoning behind that statement?" Often other people see things that we don't see -- or, more importantly, don't want to see. If you ask 10 people and eight of them say the same thing, then there is obviously something that you are missing.

Now while some people will steadfastly maintain that they have considered all possibilities, by definition a blind spot is not only an area you can't see, but one that you don't know you can't see. When eight out of 10 people tell you something is wrong, something is wrong. If you feel an incredible surge of internal resistance about what is being said or toward continuing to ask mature and responsible people for an outside perspective, that too tells you something. (If you don't know any stable and reliable people to ask that should really tell you something).

If you encounter this resistance you must approach the issue from a different angle. The question then becomes: What would I lose if I did allow myself to see what I don't want to see? And that is a Pandora's Box question if there ever was one.

From there on you might want to consider trained, licensed, professional counseling.
Return to top of page



Blame Encourages More Violence and Ignorance
While blame may sooth the victim's savaged ego, it does nothing to lend itself to understanding the dynamics that led to the attack. Most importantly, it fails to show either the victim or others how similar attacks could be avoided in the future

In the long run, it is easier to take responsibility for your actions and not put yourself into dangerous situations or live lifestyles where violence is systemic. This might not be as much fun and as self-gratifying as going out and partying, associating with violent and selfish people or staying in the comfort and safety of your personal rut. But in the long run, it hurts a whole lot less than finding yourself in a violent situation and spending the rest of your life trying to put your mind, body and spirit back together.

This section was oriented to the average person, if you have a deeper interest or are considering becoming an instructor there are many more issues to be considered
Return to top of page



Responsibility Is Not Blame
Unfortunately whenever you mention personal responsibility in regard to the subject of rape, the immediate reaction from agenda-driven idealists is that you are "blaming the victim."

Using John Bradshaw's model of a "shame-based personality," you quickly realize that these people don't recognize the difference between "blame" and "responsibility." They are so adamant about avoiding the crushing weight of blame and casting it elsewhere, they throw the baby of responsibility out with the bathwater of blame. The two are significantly different.

Re-stressing the difference as defined at the beginning of this page, blame is mostly focused on the immediate affixing of fault and censure. Responsibility is more of a standard of ongoing conduct. There are several other factors that combine to support this contention.
Return to top of page



Common Sense
We have a working definition of common sense that we often use: Common sense is knowing how things work.

By extension of knowing how things work, it also is knowing the common results of certain actions. By extension, you know what acts are best for getting desired results and what acts you should not engage in to avoid undesired results.

Unfortunately many people (especially when they are young) when faced with the choice between common sense and a self-gratifying decision, choose the latter. And they do so knowingly, ignoring the repercussions. Dr. Laura Schlessinger in her book How Could You Do That? summed up the general type of question she is asked -- which amazingly enough happens to reflect a common reaction when this selfish choice does not pan out: Now that I have done all these things I shouldn't have done, how can I avoid the consequences I knew, but denied, and just hoped would not happen?

After things have gone wrong, the defensive cry of "I didn't know" doesn't really hold water. Drinking under age or doing drugs is illegal behavior. That is a known fact. It also is hard to believe that nobody has tried to explain the reasoning that society used to pass these laws. And yet, when long-standing, selfish behavior comes home to roost, this is a common response.

What is easy to believe is that the person -- who has discovered these unacceptable behaviors are pleasurable or benefit him or her -- chooses NOT to understand.

They willfully refuse to pursue further investigation into the reasoning and logic as to why this behavior is unacceptable. From a purely "me-based" logic, this is easy to do. It doesn't hurt anyone, so why shouldn't I do it? is a common justification of this kind of behavior and thinking. It also serves as an excuse not to investigate the social and personal cost of selfish behavior.
Return to top of page



Self-Esteem vs. Self- Respect:
We consider there to be very marked difference between the two. Self-esteem is based in what you think. Self-respect is based on what you do. Self-esteem is based on the same process that robs you of it. Self-respect is based on demonstrable facts. Why is this important? As we like to say:

Charley Manson has great self-esteem(1).

People can do horrible things and still consider themselves good people. This is especially true for people who tend to blame others. Their horrible actions weren't because of their choices, according to them, those decisions were made because the other person made them do it. Or because they had no other choice. Or countless other self-justifications, excuses, rationalizations and self-esteem saving maneuvers.

There has been great focus on self-esteem in pop psychology. Unfortunately, as is often the case with popular buzz words that the public can grab hold of, there is not much understanding on the issue. The problem with self-esteem is it can be based on nothing more than your own thought pattern. The same thought pattern that robs you of feeling good about yourself. Without any external reference points, your mood controls your self-esteem.

The idea of building self-esteem without a solid foundation beneath it allows the individual to engage in any kind of behavior and still promote himself. In theory, an individual can do nothing that warrants high-esteem, and even -- as often is the case -- actively engage in negative behavior and (supposedly) still hold himself in high self-esteem. This is the source of our Manson quote. Without a legitimate foundation of good behavior and actions, self-esteem is a delusion. Furthermore, someone who is trying to promote it in people whose constant actions, thoughts and life choices do not warrant a high opinion of self are often just encouraging such people to engage in self-rationalization.

Unfortunately, this kind of optimism goes against how things work in the real world. In a nutshell, you cannot engage in negative and selfish behavior without lowering your self-esteem, even if these actions bring you momentary pleasure. If you do these things, you must work twice as hard to rationalize and reinforce your high opinion of yourself. Trying to maintain high self-esteem while engaging in negative, selfish and self-destructive behavior is like trying to jump with an anchor tied to your leg. It will keep dragging you down.

This becomes obvious when you consider the nature of self-respect. There is a quote, source unknown: In my day, we didn't have self-esteem. We had self-respect. And you only got as much of that as you could earn.

Self-respect is based on what you do. And it is an ongoing effort. It is important to realize that these actions are concrete and measure up to external standards of good behavior, accomplishment and cause for admiration. Your mood doesn't affect them because they come from outside of you. These are the solid rock of self-respect. Once you have accomplished them -- or even begin to strive for them -- they become part of you.

But more importantly, NOBODY can take them away from you. If someone tries to cut you down, you can compare that person's words with what you have accomplished and the standards of behavior that you attempt to attain. The words just don't fit the facts. And that erodes their credibility, not yours.

These accomplishments are not susceptible to moods. You can have a serious bout of self-doubt or a bad day. Without these, you could be plunged into a downward spiral of lowering self-esteem. With these foundations, however, you can only plunge so far if you choose to use them. The whispering voices of doubt are proven wrong by the solid track record of positive behavior.

The only person who can take self-respect away from you is you. And this involves a sustained effort by your "critical voices" to undermine and erode these accomplishments -- or continuing willful and intentional acts on your part to engage in negative and selfish behavior. If ,despite your best efforts to achieve long-term standards of behavior that increase self-respect, you still suffer low self-esteem seek professional counseling.
Return to top of page



The Freedom of Responsibility
When you understand the natures of power and responsibility, you discover a paradox. Responsibility is not a lessening of freedom, but rather a gaining of it. No, you cannot engage in whatever selfish whim enters your head. Yes, you will lose a great many short-term and immediate pleasures, but such behaviors are often dead-end actions in the long run.

What you will discover is that people will trust you more. And with that earned trust comes freedoms that you cannot imagine. Freedoms that don't lead to dead ends or trouble, but rather to long-term pleasure and gain. You will become able to do things that are now closed to you. You will be granted privileges.

The cost of this freedom is responsibility. And if you refuse to pay this expense, you will never have the trust, power, privileges, and freedom that comes with it.
Return to top of page



Rights vs. Privileges
Just as many people don't know the difference between blame and responsibility, the difference between rights and privileges is often confused. A right is granted by society to its members in order for it to function; a privilege is granted by a group or individual as either a reward for, or conditional upon, good behavior.

Many people go on about their "rights" with no idea of what it means. For citizens of the United States, you can pretty well see all of them by taking a look at the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. If it isn't in these documents, it isn't a right.

Misunderstanding often arises from a person's interpretation of a privilege that she wants to be a right. Last time we checked, a woman's right to walk naked into a biker bar and NOT be molested was not covered in the Bill of Rights. Neither is a woman's right to party until she passes out in a frat house room and then expect not to be sexually assaulted. These are not rights ... nor are they likely to happen.

Integral to rights are the issues of responsibility and duty. For example, as an American citizen it is your responsibility to pay taxes. It also is the duty of young males, if drafted, to serve their country in the military. You are expected to follow the laws of your state and nation. These are just a few of the responsibilities and duties you exchange for your rights.

More specifically, you have the right to free speech. But you have the responsibility not to "yell fire in a crowded theater". Your right to free speech is a cornerstone of the democratic process, and that is why it is granted. You do not, however, have the right to say anything you want -- that is a misinterpretation of a right. Your freedom of speech stops when it becomes libel, slander, induces or encourages others to engage in illegal activities, or, in many states, is "fighting words." (These are things that you cannot say to another person and then expect them not to become violent.)

In short, your right to swing your arm stops where the other person's nose begins. Because that person has just as many rights as you do.

Rights can be revoked, but only through due process of law. If you violate the laws of society, you will risk your freedom being taken away -- your liberty will be curtailed. If you are convicted of a felony, your right to vote will be revoked. But all of these require the judicial system and due process. One person cannot decide to permanently revoke your rights. In the same vein, you cannot just arbitrarily decide what is and is not your right.
Return to top of page



Privileges Are Not Rights.
Like power, privileges can be revoked. As stated, privileges are granted either as a reward or conditionally. In more formal circumstances, due process also is applied. Recently it was upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court that driving an automobile was not a right, but a privilege. States can take away a person's privilege to drive if that person doesn't conform to that state's code of safe conduct.

Under less formal conditions, however, the person or group who grants you the privilege can also revoke same, and without due process.

Privileges are often granted because the person giving them has decided that your behavior is beneficial to him or her. Or because the person has taken on the duty of helping you (e.g., a parent raising and readying you for existence in this society). Now while parents are legally obligated to supply support, past a very basic standard, you quickly get into privilege territory.

Unfortunately, many young people do not understand the difference between a right and a privilege. Nor do they understand the economic nature of privilege. In any context outside your family, privileges are earned. And yet many people assume that they are, in fact, rights. Not so.

We often encounter young people who are outraged at the "unfairness" of someone getting to do something forbidden to them. For example, a good worker asks for and is granted a day off without contest. When someone else asks for the same, it is refused. On the surface this would seem, at the very least, a double standard, and, at the worst, favoritism.

What is often overlooked is the consistent high standard of work the good employee provides. This high caliber of performance makes it in the boss's best interest to accommodate that person when possible. This is how a person earns privileges. Such a person will be granted liberties that are not allowed to other, less reliable people.

On the surface this seems unfair. It is not until you recognize the "economy of service" that you will begin to understand the wider picture -- and how Western business works. People who do not recognize how it works will be unlikely ever to be promoted beyond the most menial levels in the corporate and business world.
Return to top of page



Why Is This Important?
The reason for this particularly dry section is to acquaint you with the idea that many things that we take for granted are not rights, but are in fact privileges. And sometimes not even that. The term that describes much high-risk behavior is "taking liberties," if not out-and-out "illegal acts." And just because you don't think it hurts anybody doesn't mean it isn't a criminal act.

And it is when we automatically assume that we have these "rights" without the burden of responsibility -- and responsibility is defined by others and society, not just by our own personal standards -- that we get into trouble.

An example of how far this thinking can go: In the late '90s university students in Boulder, Colorado, actually rioted when police cracked down on underage drinking. Hundreds, if not thousands, of students rioted for their "right to party." Not once, but several times ... and in different years! Collectively, nearly a million dollars worth of damage was caused, students threw objects at police, stores were looted and large fires were set. Sixty police officers were injured.

It is interesting to note, however, the complete outrage these students expressed when the Boulder police commented they would have been within their right to open fire -- especially when students were throwing rocks, bricks and bottles at officers. Not only were these people rioting because they felt they were being persecuted when the police cracked down on their illegal activities (drinking underage, public intoxication, drug use, fights and DUIs), but, after committing extensive property damage and wounding police officers, students became incensed to discover that the Boulder police would have been justified in shooting them for their actions. As it was, they blamed the police for the riots anyway.

This was the behavior they felt was their "right" to engage in. What they didn't realize is that in doing so, they were putting themselves in very real danger. They were relying on the self-control of the law enforcement officers not to open fire.

If you believe it is your right to go out and party, to go out and say or do anything that you want, to treat people however you want or to engage in illegal activities -- whether from minor indulgence to reckless abandonment -- then you are putting yourself at risk.

By stepping outside the social parameters of acceptable conduct and refusing to accept the working definitions of rights and privileges, you are stepping outside of the rules. Once there, all those rules you unconsciously rely on to keep you safe are in question. They may or may not still apply. You are, in essence, hoping that you won't meet anyone who is willing to go to greater extremes and is more selfish in getting what he wants than you are.

And that is like betting the tiger you are riding won't get hungry



The Survivor Personality
Although not a part of this site, Al Siebert in his book The Survivor Personality offers an important glimpse into the personality of people who have survived the most extreme forms of adversity. He writes about what it takes not only to survive, but to flourish, under severe circumstances and extreme situations. If you are not sure you have what it takes to make it through adverse situations without the safety net of blaming others, you might want to take a look at his work.