Asking a favor of AH members who read BDSM.

[AG31]

See next post.

 

[AG31]

When I re-connected with the world of erotica about 4 years ago (see my bio for the reasons), I expected to find a lot of stories to my taste. I found very few. And when I published my fantasies, it became clear that my stories were in a small niche. (Stats: Reads, 5-13k, Comments, 4-9, Ratings posted, 15-64, followers 52)

The reason I expected to find lots of like minded authors and AH posters was that back in the day, my tastes were very popular. The Story of O, by Pauline Reage, touched some bases and Exit to Eden and The Sleeping Beauty Trilogy by Anne Rice touched others.

This is not distressing to me, but it is very intriguing.

Here's the favor: Would you readers of BDSM look at one of my BDSM stories (Lit pages 1 to 4), read enough of it to form an opinion, and tell me what (if anything) puts you off? Of course, the rest of you are welcome, but disliking BDSM won't give me the answers I'm looking for.

- Staid, almost formal tone of narrative.

- Almost total absence of relationships.

- Focus on a male surrendering rather than a female, especially straight male in M/M activity.

- Absence of naughtiness, sissification, training, infantilization, etc (why I add "with dignity" to my blurbs). If so, could you specify which?

Thanks to all!!!

 

[MillieDynamite]

A double tap!

 

[MillieDynamite]

I can't today, but I will tomorrow.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I suppose I would be suitable as one of the readers, especially since I prefer #3 and also dislike #4.

But what exactly are you hoping for with this? A full-on review? Something specific? Why do you need the readers to be those who usually read BDSM?

 

[SamanthaBehgs]

See next post.

Why two posts?

 

[SimonDoom]

I enjoy BDSM stories. My very first written erotica story (second published) was a BDSM story, In The Hallway. It's still my highest rated story, and one of the stories I most enjoyed writing. I'd call it "BDSM light," because it's more about how two people get involved in power exchange than in the details of a BDSM experience. I think the subject is fascinating, and can be very erotic.

I read your story Twelve Maxbridge Road. I thought you did an excellent job narrating the actual BDSM experience/encounters. It all seemed plausible to me and one can feel your kinky interest in the details of how it would work.

In reading your story, though, I felt some of what I felt about The Story of O. When I read that story, I wanted to know more about how O got there. Now keep in mind this is just my own subjective taste, and this in particular is a kinky subject where no one perspective is correct. But for me, a huge part of the erotica is how they got there. In reading your story I wanted to know more about how Faranger got there -- his own personal, kinky evolution toward taking what was, for most people, a huge and risky step.

When he encountered co-workers, I thought it would have been more erotic to have established his relationship with those co-workers before he ever went to the BDSM place. It would have created more tension and surprise and drama, and created the opportunity for character development.

This, again, is my own personal taste with erotica, but I like an erotic story that focuses on the approach to the erotic subject, reaches an artful climax of sorts, and then resolves fairly quickly afterward. The last part of the story, featuring Faranger and Sandra, the attendant, didn't strike me as integrated as well with the previous part of the story as it might have been. If you're going to end the story with love, then you should foreshadow love. She needs to feature more prominently somehow at the beginning of the story. Perhaps, for example, she is one of his coworkers, and at the beginning of the story you feature a scene between the two of them, so when she appears later during his BDSM ritual, and again afterward, it gives the relationship extra zing.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I think a lot of the people in Lit's BDSM category are there specifically for mdom/fsub, maybe open to fdom/fsub, and are uncomfortable with stories about male submission especially to other men. The tone would be more of an issue to me but I don't think my tastes are going to shift the dial much compared to those expectations about gender.

 

[lovecraft68]

I think a lot of the people in Lit's BDSM category are there specifically for mdom/fsub, maybe open to fdom/fsub, and are uncomfortable with stories about male submission especially to other men. The tone would be more of an issue to me but I don't think my tastes are going to shift the dial much compared to those expectations about gender.

My first story here was femdom and it did okay. If I posted it today it would be shredded.

The misogynists have been taking over this site for years now and I'm talking authors as much as the readership.

Lot of weak men suffering from bitterness and CMI abound. I haven't posted in BDSM here in well over a decade, but have done around a dozen e-books under different names in the market. Some are Maledom but I still wouldn't put them here.

Knowing I'm going to sound bad here, but I won't lower myself to so much as click on that category here. I'd rather get flamed in LW, at least those idiots aren't pretending about what they like. BDSM is "I want to write rape but don't want the NC stigma so..."

I'm sure there's good authors and stories there, but I'm not walking the minefield. BDSM has been too big a part of my real life for forty years to deal with poserdom and abusers

 

[TheRedChamber]

I dont want to 'Well, actually...'.anyone on this thread, but...well,.actually...

I did some research on this a couple of years ago because I'd been hearing some of the same claims as on this thread. The short version is that in stories with one clearly identifiable protagonist (e.g. first or close third perspective) there was a 80:20 split between subs and dom(me)s and a 60:40 split between male and female. There is not too much variation in scores but femsub do best and lesbian sub even better.

Heading out now, but will reply with my personal thoughts/preferences later.

Article here: https://www.literotica.com/s/a-survey-of-the-bdsm-category

 

[TheRedChamber]

I've given feedback on some of your stories before but from your list 'absense of relationships' would be the main sticking point for me. I tend to like BDSM that at least semi-realistic, and situated in a clear caring relationships and life 'outside the dungeon'. I like dom(mes) who are not completely psychic about subs needs and subs who occassionally say 'no' (or better 'ouch, quit it'). I like it when sessions seem on the edge of collapse and when I as a reader believe the safeword truly could be deployed.

I believe that the only thing in life more ridiculous than sex is love, but bdsm is the most ridiculous form of sex.

 

[AG31]

I suppose I would be suitable as one of the readers, especially since I prefer #3 and also dislike #4.

But what exactly are you hoping for with this? A full-on review? Something specific? Why do you need the readers to be those who usually read BDSM?

I just want to know which of the elements I listed are unpopular with modern BDSM audiences. Just a Yes/No reply would be great.

 

[AG31]

Why two posts?

I don't know. I tried to edit my original and discovered I had two posts. So I emptied the first (because the second contained my edits.)

 

[SamanthaBehgs]

I dont want to 'Well, actually...'.anyone on this thread, but...well,.actually...

I did some research on this a couple of years ago because I'd been hearing some of the same claims as on this thread. The short version is that in stories with one clearly identifiable protagonist (e.g. first or close third perspective) there was a 80:20 split between subs and dom(me)s and a 60:40 split between male and female. There is not too much variation in scores but femsub do best and lesbian sub even better.

Heading out now, but will reply with my personal thoughts/preferences later.

Article here: https://www.literotica.com/s/a-survey-of-the-bdsm-category

Do you still have this data in a file? It looks like you reported a large number of descriptive statistics (the averages and the like) but I would LOVE to get some inferential stats in there (e.g., looking to see if there is a stable difference between day of the week published or if there is actually a correlation between length and rating that goes beyond chance variation). I do not, however, have the ability right now to gather the data myself as I would not be able to consistently log in as you did.

Btw: This is impressive.

 

[AG31]

I dont want to 'Well, actually...'.anyone on this thread, but...well,.actually...

I did some research on this a couple of years ago because I'd been hearing some of the same claims as on this thread. The short version is that in stories with one clearly identifiable protagonist (e.g. first or close third perspective) there was a 80:20 split between subs and dom(me)s and a 60:40 split between male and female. There is not too much variation in scores but femsub do best and lesbian sub even better.

Heading out now, but will reply with my personal thoughts/preferences later.

Article here: https://www.literotica.com/s/a-survey-of-the-bdsm-category

Thanks so much for the link. I'll take some time to actually read instead of skim tomorrow.

 

[TheRedChamber]

Do you still have this data in a file? It looks like you reported a large number of descriptive statistics (the averages and the like) but I would LOVE to get some inferential stats in there (e.g., looking to see if there is a stable difference between day of the week published or if there is actually a correlation between length and rating that goes beyond chance variation). I do not, however, have the ability right now to gather the data myself as I would not be able to consistently log in as you did.

Btw: This is impressive.

Not sure. I've changed laptops since then. I'll take a look when I get home.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Hi. I happily read (and write) BDSM, including submissive males.

I read 12 Maxbridge Street when it came out. Given I'm a fussy reader and stop reading probably 19 out of 20 stories, the fact I read the whole thing should be taken as a compliment!

However, and I'm only mentioning it because you explicitly asked, some things put me off, and other choices relegated it (IMO!) to 'quite good' rather than 'great'.

The setting of a high-protocol club obsessed with rules - these exist in fiction but I've never known one to in real life. I'm sure some exist, because everything has been tried somewhere, but they're not the default BDSM club. If you're wanting to portray a Roissy-like mansion vibe, this needs more description of what makes it special and exclusive. Then the bit about his safeword is 'armadillo' - kudos for raising the concept of safewords, but (again IMO) this was implausible - no club is going to have staff memorising 100 different safewords for people. They'll have house safewords like 'Safeword!' and 'Red' and perhaps a policy of coming to hover nearby if there's yells of 'no' and 'stop' to check for ongoing consent.

These are two personal peeves that suggest the story is going to be fantastical and probably unrealistic. There's a readership for such stories, so that's not a reason to avoid fantasy clubs, just I'm not a fan. I know you mentioned 'this is a fantasy' etc upfront, but that was a bit off-putting - all Lit stories are fantasies, and saying you don't know what you're writing about - that's something that doesn't need to be said?

I mostly felt when reading, 'this is OK but you could have done more'. Set the scene, build up the atmosphere for us. Who is Faranger and why do we give a shit about him? What is he looking for and how does his mindset change as the story goes on? It reads a bit like a shopping list - this was done to him, that was done to him, he went ow, something else was done. Again, there's readers who like that, but with your style, more psychology would have fit in well.

The 'formal tone' was fine - very Story of O etc - but it was a bit staid. Try reading it out loud - there's a lot of sentences all a similar length. Some longer descriptive ones, then some very short ones with action, mixed in, would make it more interesting to read. Some of the dialogue similarly felt clunky.

Not going into detail about human relationships is a choice and can work, but if you do that, I think you need more about the relationship between Faranger and what is happening to him and his feelings. Otherwise it's not really a story,.more 'this happened, that happened, the other happened'. And by having him meet coworkers, there's a relationship there which you chose not to write about - it might have worked better if they were simply strangers? But that's my personal view. It's not like I haven't written stories myself which were just me describing a series of things I felt like describing.

 

[AG31]

Hi. I happily read (and write) BDSM, including submissive males.

I read 12 Maxbridge Street when it came out. Given I'm a fussy reader and stop reading probably 19 out of 20 stories, the fact I read the whole thing should be taken as a compliment!

However, and I'm only mentioning it because you explicitly asked, some things put me off, and other choices relegated it (IMO!) to 'quite good' rather than 'great'.

The setting of a high-protocol club obsessed with rules - these exist in fiction but I've never known one to in real life. I'm sure some exist, because everything has been tried somewhere, but they're not the default BDSM club. If you're wanting to portray a Roissy-like mansion vibe, this needs more description of what makes it special and exclusive. Then the bit about his safeword is 'armadillo' - kudos for raising the concept of safewords, but (again IMO) this was implausible - no club is going to have staff memorising 100 different safewords for people. They'll have house safewords like 'Safeword!' and 'Red' and perhaps a policy of coming to hover nearby if there's yells of 'no' and 'stop' to check for ongoing consent.

These are two personal peeves that suggest the story is going to be fantastical and probably unrealistic. There's a readership for such stories, so that's not a reason to avoid fantasy clubs, just I'm not a fan. I know you mentioned 'this is a fantasy' etc upfront, but that was a bit off-putting - all Lit stories are fantasies, and saying you don't know what you're writing about - that's something that doesn't need to be said?

I mostly felt when reading, 'this is OK but you could have done more'. Set the scene, build up the atmosphere for us. Who is Faranger and why do we give a shit about him? What is he looking for and how does his mindset change as the story goes on? It reads a bit like a shopping list - this was done to him, that was done to him, he went ow, something else was done. Again, there's readers who like that, but with your style, more psychology would have fit in well.

The 'formal tone' was fine - very Story of O etc - but it was a bit staid. Try reading it out loud - there's a lot of sentences all a similar length. Some longer descriptive ones, then some very short ones with action, mixed in, would make it more interesting to read. Some of the dialogue similarly felt clunky.

Not going into detail about human relationships is a choice and can work, but if you do that, I think you need more about the relationship between Faranger and what is happening to him and his feelings. Otherwise it's not really a story,.more 'this happened, that happened, the other happened'. And by having him meet coworkers, there's a relationship there which you chose not to write about - it might have worked better if they were simply strangers? But that's my personal view. It's not like I haven't written stories myself which were just me describing a series of things I felt like describing.

Thanks so much for the detailed response!

 

[AG31]

I dont want to 'Well, actually...'.anyone on this thread, but...well,.actually...

I did some research on this a couple of years ago because I'd been hearing some of the same claims as on this thread. The short version is that in stories with one clearly identifiable protagonist (e.g. first or close third perspective) there was a 80:20 split between subs and dom(me)s and a 60:40 split between male and female. There is not too much variation in scores but femsub do best and lesbian sub even better.

Heading out now, but will reply with my personal thoughts/preferences later.

Article here: https://www.literotica.com/s/a-survey-of-the-bdsm-category

Thanks so much for the link. I'll take some time to actually read instead of skim tomorrow.

Well, I finally did really read it, and when I finished I was surprised to see that there were already 5 stars marked. I scrolled down a bit further and found a 2 year old comment by me. One of the glass-is-half-full aspects of aging is that you can enjoy stuff multiple times!

Thanks again!

 

[AG31]

I suppose I would be suitable as one of the readers, especially since I prefer #3 and also dislike #4.

But what exactly are you hoping for with this? A full-on review? Something specific? Why do you need the readers to be those who usually read BDSM?

Here was my response.

I just want to know which of the elements I listed are unpopular with modern BDSM audiences. Just a Yes/No reply would be great.

Apparently it wasn't clear or got lost in the shuffle. But on re-reading, maybe you've answered it. Might you be one of those who are like minded? Could you dip into one of the stories and render your opinion, along the lines of my specific questions?

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I kinda forgot about this thread. When I catch some time, I'll read your story and share my thoughts here.

 

[AG31]

I can't today, but I will tomorrow.

Thanks, MillieD, for your comment over on the story side. I'm posting it here for those who may be following this thread. Thanks for reminding me about Bad Lieutenant.

I was unable to put a series together in Lit. For anyone wanting more info about Henderson, Naked is the precusor.

***************
This is a great story, five stars. It reminded me of Bad Lieutenant: Port of Call New Orleans, where Nicolas Cage was on a slow descent into his own hell while investigating a murder and trying to hide his drug addiction and his need to be hurt or punished for all his bad decisions.

With that said, we don't have enough background to form any such conclusion on Henderson. He may be just a masochist, yes, no, maybe? At any rate, it is well-written; it may be more appealing to some and less so to others.

I believe there is something deeper in this story than just the shock factor, sorry, VerbalAbuse. Those people who like or want to be hurt have reasons, and while they aren't addressed, it provokes the question, why?

 

[AG31]

Thanks to you all** in this thread I'm prepared to add a new Aha insight to my Thanks to AH post. Here's what I think it will say:

I think I may have refined my definition of my type of erotica to the bare bones: It attempts to evoke the sensory experience of the main character, both the directly erotic, and the sensations engendered by emotions such as surrender, humiliation, lust and love. Plot and character are necessary to set the scene, but beyond that they are a distraction from this central purpose.

I've even gotten an answer to a long-standing puzzle. Why is it that I've very much enjoyed some stories (on very rare occasions) which involve one of the "undignified" qualities I mentioned above. It's because those stories focus on the sensory experience of the main character, enough to make me forget the setting.

I accept MillieD's sense that "there is something deeper in [The Recurrence] than just the shock factor." I don't attempt to deal with the deeper aspects of sex, but I do marvel at the power of sex in human lives and wouldn't be surprised if that comes through in some ways. There's so much that I don't understand. I'm very grateful that we have AH as a place to explore these things.

** I'm listing you all because I've recently become aware that not everyone sets Watches on threads they're following, or necessarily follow threads after they've said their piece. So, thanks to @MillieDynamite, @AwkwardlySet, @SimonDoom, @Bramblethorn, @lovecraft68, @TheRedChamber, @SamanthaBehgs, @Kumquatqueen, @PollyGons

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I've read Twelve Maxbridge Street, which I assume is the story you're most proud of. I could tell you what I personally did or didn't like, but I'm not sure how helpful that would be. I'm pretty sure I'm nowhere close to being an average reader in any sense. Instead, I'll try to tackle things from what I believe is the preference of the average reader of simple erotica, as you call it. Assuming I know what the average reader in this category enjoys, of course.

First, I want to say that you write well in general. Your style is descriptive and very detail-oriented. It's also quite formal, and I would say even clinical in sex scenes.

The things I see as problematic from the viewpoint of an average reader of simple erotica, or a stroke story, in no particular order:

- You start with a descriptive exposition. It takes quite a few paragraphs before anything happens that can catch the reader's interest. It's something that's important for all types of stories, but even more so for stroke stories, where you'll want to grab the reader's attention quickly. It's my opinion that the best way is to put your reader in the middle of an interesting scene right away, sexual or otherwise. There are so many stories here available for free. You need to fight for the attention of your readership.

- I've already mentioned that your style is mostly clinical, with not much moans, sighs, or expressions of inner thoughts and the arousal that your characters feel. It's a style, I suppose, but, in my opinion, not one very much popular with stroke story readers.

- There is a good deal of gay male content, and there aren't even any tags to let the reader know in advance. I'd say that would be off-putting for many readers, me included.

- Too many characters take part in the action. I think that the average reader would enjoy it if the story had fewer characters, but if they took more stage time, so the reader could form some kind of attachment or preference. In your story, there are too many of them, and most of them take only a fraction of the total stage time. They are practically X, Y, Z characters.

The aspects of your story that I see as popular from the standpoint of that same average reader are the fact that you focus a lot on the male ejaculation, and that your story ends on a very positive note, with love and a happily ever after of sorts, even though the way you introduced love into your story stretches the suspension of disbelief a lot.

There it is. I hope that helped.

 

[AG31]

I've read Twelve Maxbridge Street, which I assume is the story you're most proud of. I could tell you what I personally did or didn't like, but I'm not sure how helpful that would be. I'm pretty sure I'm nowhere close to being an average reader in any sense. Instead, I'll try to tackle things from what I believe is the preference of the average reader of simple erotica, as you call it. Assuming I know what the average reader in this category enjoys, of course.

First, I want to say that you write well in general. Your style is descriptive and very detail-oriented. It's also quite formal, and I would say even clinical in sex scenes.

The things I see as problematic from the viewpoint of an average reader of simple erotica, or a stroke story, in no particular order:

- You start with a descriptive exposition. It takes quite a few paragraphs before anything happens that can catch the reader's interest. It's something that's important for all types of stories, but even more so for stroke stories, where you'll want to grab the reader's attention quickly. It's my opinion that the best way is to put your reader in the middle of an interesting scene right away, sexual or otherwise. There are so many stories here available for free. You need to fight for the attention of your readership.

- I've already mentioned that your style is mostly clinical, with not much moans, sighs, or expressions of inner thoughts and the arousal that your characters feel. It's a style, I suppose, but, in my opinion, not one very much popular with stroke story readers.

- There is a good deal of gay male content, and there aren't even any tags to let the reader know in advance. I'd say that would be off-putting for many readers, me included.

- Too many characters take part in the action. I think that the average reader would enjoy it if the story had fewer characters, but if they took more stage time, so the reader could form some kind of attachment or preference. In your story, there are too many of them, and most of them take only a fraction of the total stage time. They are practically X, Y, Z characters.

The aspects of your story that I see as popular from the standpoint of that same average reader are the fact that you focus a lot on the male ejaculation, and that your story ends on a very positive note, with love and a happily ever after of sorts, even though the way you introduced love into your story stretches the suspension of disbelief a lot.

There it is. I hope that helped.

Thanks much for the detailed reply. All very interesting.

I could tell you what I personally did or didn't like, but I'm not sure how helpful that would be.

Au contraire. Could you just go down my list in the OP and tell me which things put you off, you, yourself? I should have added "gay male overtones," I suppose. Edit: On further reflection, although all my stories contain some M/M activity, it's important that the MCs are clearly not gay. They're experienceing surrender, not attraction for a man.

I'm not looking to broaden my readership, just looking to identify what makes my preferred niche small.