Perfection, or the lack thereof.

[MiaBabe23]

Agreed, and also appreciated. Look forward to future posts, too!



Remember we’re talking perfection for a goal. If the goal is sealing, a hole of any degree of perfection shatters the perfection of the seal. Similarly, a hole in a seal isn’t perfect - the seal still exists and restricts the flow.



I’ve been (trying to) dodge the whole subjective/objective divide, as it takes and slathers on another whole thick layer of multiple definitions. Instead I’ve been trying to keep focused on reaching some goal, be it subjective or objective or even frankly delusional - although admittedly reaching the latter category’s gonna be a whole lot more difficult!



If your goal is, say, watching the next holiday parade, and you’ve slept horribly of late, wouldn’t your essential need for sleep be a detriment in attempting to achieve your stated goal? And per prior definition, wouldn’t that break perfection?

NOT talking about original sin, mind!

So the example of the hole in a seal was about how an imperfect something may result in a perfect something else - you can’t get away from the subjectivity problem!!
And here we begin to see the problem of philosophy; definitions and axioms
Let’s just be thankful we’re not taking the early Wittgenstein route and fretting about language too
But as per above - you can’t use goals as part of perfection
And I’ll just note as well how perfection in someone we love is different from perfect - it’s not saying they’re flawless. It’s saying they’re so wonderful that they’re deserving of that love

 

[UsuallyPresent]

So the example of the hole in a seal was about how an imperfect something may result in a perfect something else - you can’t get away from the subjectivity problem!!

Similarly you can't get away from the objective problem - your initial goal is broke, gone, kaput, tau, done.

Even then, if you get a hole in a seal - why're you assuming it's a perfect hole?

And here we begin to see the problem of philosophy; definitions and axioms

Mmm... Maybe. Or alternately we see the hidden assumptions start to poke out of the woodwork, and the fact that our chosen sets do not correlate, and are in some ways remarkably opposed!

 

[MiaBabe23]

Similarly you can't get away from the objective problem - your initial goal is broke, gone, kaput, tau, done.

Even then, if you get a hole in a seal - why're you assuming it's a perfect hole?



Mmm... Maybe. Or alternately we see the hidden assumptions start to poke out of the woodwork, and the fact that our chosen sets do not correlate, and are in some ways remarkably opposed!

That’s not true. There are countless things that are undeniably part of objective reality
If all we had to do was prove that perfection exists subjectively, game over, I win lol

Not saying I assume it is, that wasn’t my point lol; the point was the subjective/objective distinction, which I think you’re accepting

So. Question -
Is a newborn puppy perfect?

 

[UsuallyPresent]

Love can also lead to obsession, jealousy, hatred, fear, selfishness ('love of self') and other negatives. If you're claiming 'true love is perfect' and then using that definition as how to find an example of perfection, then congrats, you've just recreated the self-licking ice cream cone.

And you're adding values judgements to perfection here - you seem to be claiming only positive (from your perspective) emotional states can be perfect - why can't negative ones? Perfect hatred? Perfect selfishness?

 

[MiaBabe23]

Love can also lead to obsession, jealousy, hatred, fear, selfishness ('love of self') and other negatives. If you're claiming 'true love is perfect' and then using that definition as how to find an example of perfection, then congrats, you've just recreated the self-licking ice cream cone.

And you're adding values judgements to perfection here - you seem to be claiming only positive (from your perspective) emotional states can be perfect - why can't negative ones? Perfect hatred? Perfect selfishness?

I guess it can

 

[MiaBabe23]

Love can also lead to obsession, jealousy, hatred, fear, selfishness ('love of self') and other negatives. If you're claiming 'true love is perfect' and then using that definition as how to find an example of perfection, then congrats, you've just recreated the self-licking ice cream cone.

And you're adding values judgements to perfection here - you seem to be claiming only positive (from your perspective) emotional states can be perfect - why can't negative ones? Perfect hatred? Perfect selfishness?

So, sure, perhaps it can
But the fact we know imperfect states and reactions exist doesn’t disprove the existence of perfection
The fact that we can prove the existence of the moon doesn’t disprove the existence of the sun; nor does the existence of one side of the moon disprove the existence of the other
Love makes us better, it makes us kinder, more empathetic, more in touch with ourselves; and when stayed true to, makes our actions reflect that
What, who would you consider the best example of someone who has come the closest to perfection?

 

[UsuallyPresent]

So, sure, perhaps it can
But the fact we know imperfect states and reactions exist doesn’t disprove the existence of perfection

Sorry, got distracted by what seemed to me to be your attaching perfection solely to emotions you judge positively - my bad. You're right, it doesn't disprove it, but does provide another area to further explore subjective failure of perfection.

The fact that we can prove the existence of the moon doesn’t disprove the existence of the sun; nor does the existence of one side of the moon disprove the existence of the other

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with respect to the moon/sun, sorry, I'm apparently being dense.

Love makes us better, it makes us kinder, more empathetic, more in touch with ourselves; and when stayed true to, makes our actions reflect that

What, who would you consider the best example of someone who has come the closest to perfection?

As previously mentioned, the one thing I'm aware of approaching perfection is the inability to find perfection. Which is such a logic conundrum, it hurts. We can't find it! Look, there it is! Now we've found it - so we're not unable to find it. So, it's gone. Repeat ad nauseam...

 

[MiaBabe23]

Sorry, got distracted by what seemed to me to be your attaching perfection solely to emotions you judge positively - my bad. You're right, it doesn't disprove it, but does provide another area to further explore subjective failure of perfection.



I'm not sure what you're trying to say with respect to the moon/sun, sorry, I'm apparently being dense.



As previously mentioned, the one thing I'm aware of approaching perfection is the inability to find perfection. Which is such a logic conundrum, it hurts. We can't find it! Look, there it is! Now we've found it - so we're not unable to find it. So, it's gone. Repeat ad nauseam...

I’m confused and haven’t even drunk or smoked anything yet lol, I’ll have to have a look at it afresh lol

 

[MiaBabe23]

Sorry, got distracted by what seemed to me to be your attaching perfection solely to emotions you judge positively - my bad. You're right, it doesn't disprove it, but does provide another area to further explore subjective failure of perfection.



I'm not sure what you're trying to say with respect to the moon/sun, sorry, I'm apparently being dense.



As previously mentioned, the one thing I'm aware of approaching perfection is the inability to find perfection. Which is such a logic conundrum, it hurts. We can't find it! Look, there it is! Now we've found it - so we're not unable to find it. So, it's gone. Repeat ad nauseam...

But surely shining a light on perfection enhances it, it doesn’t chase it away - we’re not talking about atoms here…?

 

[UsuallyPresent]

If you can point out a physical phenomenon like a sun or moon that fully meets the definition of ‘perfect’, you win.

Note: a perfect sun is also an imperfect moon, but then again the purpose of such an object differs as the definition we’d agreed to should still work, I think.

If instead you choose to state that any single specified object is perfectly itself, you’re shooting your argument in the foot as things change over remarkably short time frames. That so-called perfection is ephemeral at best, as any change breaks that former definition.

If you choose to bring in things we can’t measure adequately, like love, all we can do is observe inputs & outputs. Assuming for this specific logic exercise that marriage requires love, divorce implies imperfect love in at least a nontrivial number of cases. I don’t agree that that’s the case as you could marry for reasons other than love, and love for your partner could drive you to divorce, but how else can we show the difference between, say, Romeo & Juliet’s love versus Yogi Bear’s love for pik-a-nik baskets?

 

[MiaBabe23]

If you can point out a physical phenomenon like a sun or moon that fully meets the definition of ‘perfect’, you win.

Note: a perfect sun is also an imperfect moon, but then again the purpose of such an object differs as the definition we’d agreed to should still work, I think.

If instead you choose to state that any single specified object is perfectly itself, you’re shooting your argument in the foot as things change over remarkably short time frames. That so-called perfection is ephemeral at best, as any change breaks that former definition.

If you choose to bring in things we can’t measure adequately, like love, all we can do is observe inputs & outputs. Assuming for this specific logic exercise that marriage requires love, divorce implies imperfect love in at least a nontrivial number of cases. I don’t agree that that’s the case as you could marry for reasons other than love, and love for your partner could drive you to divorce, but how else can we show the difference between, say, Romeo & Juliet’s love versus Yogi Bear’s love for pik-a-nik baskets?

Well one of the problems is I think you’re now adding permanence to the definition of perfection - that needs more rationale, I think
And the fact you can come up with imperfect examples of something doesn’t negate the possibility that perfect versions can exist too
A perfect performance, a perfect landing, a perfect number - all without flaws
As to love - you’re getting into the realms of self-serving and satisfaction with the Yogi Bear example. And by definition, that’s not love, but enjoyment and gratification. Love itself can be perfect

 

[UsuallyPresent]

Well one of the problems is I think you’re now adding permanence to the definition of perfection - that needs more rationale, I think
And the fact you can come up with imperfect examples of something doesn’t negate the possibility that perfect versions can exist too
A perfect performance, a perfect landing, a perfect number - all without flaws

Quoting from earlier, we defined perfection as "the state derived of all related aspects which reach some specified goal"

If some of those states affect reaching a goal *over time* then I think it's fine that permanence is included. In counterpoint it becomes much harder to deny the possibility that there couldn't be a 'perfect instant' - a specific point in time where a set of aspects all drive towards some specified goal.

Self-limiting, in that they wouldn't persist, but IMO significantly more possible.

As to love - you’re getting into the realms of self-serving and satisfaction with the Yogi Bear example. And by definition, that’s not love, but enjoyment and gratification. Love itself can be perfect

OK, I'll agree that the Yogi Bear bit was a bit of sophistry on my part.

You like arguing about the perfectibility of love. Let's take that a step back - what's your definition of "love"?

Almost as an aside, I would point out that the Greeks had at least 8 well-defined, distinct types of love, among other sets of definitions gathered by different groups over time - a situation that meets one definition may not match as well on others. Would this, in your opinion, break perfection of 'love'? Why or why not? Or could there be perfect philia at a point without eros being in a similar ideal state?

 

[Beholders_Eye]

I often find a picture of a woman on Lit (or elsewhere) that I think is perfect...until I come across another one....until...

So, perfection is subject to my state of mind (or some other state).

 

[Photog1rl]

So far from perfect-in almost every way-but the title caught my eye so I figured I’d stop in and say hi.

 

[UsuallyPresent]

So far from perfect-in almost every way-but the title caught my eye so I figured I’d stop in and say hi.

Howdy!

Yeah, obviously that’s my position- ain’t no such beastie worth the name.

Have a good one…

I often find a picture of a woman on Lit (or elsewhere) that I think is perfect...until I come across another one....until...

So, perfection is subject to my state of mind (or some other state).

Perception and state of mind certainly affect perfection. One of those beauties getting railed in the middle of traffic while you’re late would tend to make the situation lessen perfect, I’d think!

 

[P0peye]

Perfection is a meaningless and irrelevant concept.

 

[UsuallyPresent]

Perfection is a meaningless and irrelevant concept.

As far as a physical state, I believe it's not achievable, but I have a lot of sympathy for those who fixate on it as a goal. *shrug* YMMV, 'course!

 

[P0peye]

As far as a physical state, I believe it's not achievable, but I have a lot of sympathy for those who fixate on it as a goal. *shrug* YMMV, 'course!

It's a relativistic concept based on arbitrary values, and as a goal it's similar to religion.