English language in Europe and other regions

[AwkwardlySet]

I've stumbled upon this article -

https://www.euronews.com/travel/202...to-speak-to-locals-if-youre-an-english-speake

and while there is some interesting ranking data in the article, what struck me the most is this apparent fact :

Gender gap in English proficiency persists​

Since last year, women’s English proficiency remained stable while men’s declined, which has narrowed the gender gap.

However, in 40 countries, men’s English proficiency is still significantly higher than women’s.

Africa remains the exception as the only continent where women have consistently better English skills than men, and women’s proficiency improved the most.

Worldwide, the gender gap is widest among the youngest cohort and narrows progressively over time.

This data goes against all my experience both as a former student and now a teacher. I've always witnessed that girls have more interest in foreign languages than boys so I can't reconcile that experience with this data. The only thing that comes to my mind is gaming as a source of English skills, as it's still a very much male-dominated area. Maybe that would also explain this, at first thought counterintuitive fact, that the gender gap is wider in younger generations?

And why is it the other way around in Africa of all places? Strange.

 

[Plathfan]

I've stumbled upon this article -

https://www.euronews.com/travel/202...to-speak-to-locals-if-youre-an-english-speake

and while there is some interesting ranking data in the article, what struck me the most is this apparent fact :



This data goes against all my experience both as a former student and now a teacher. I've always witnessed that girls have more interest in foreign languages than boys so I can't reconcile that experience with this data. The only thing that comes to my mind is gaming as a source of English skills, as it's still a very much male-dominated area. Maybe that would also explain this, at first thought counterintuitive fact, that the gender gap is wider in younger generations?

And why is it the other way around in Africa of all places? Strange.

I can't say for English specifically, but women generally have an evolutionary advantage in language acquisition and interpersonal communication. Men, by contrast, tend to excel in navigation and strategic thinking.

In our ancestral past, while men hunted silently, women communicated with children and engaged in social chatter within the safety of the cave.

 

[Britva415]

It doesn’t cite any sources so it’s hard to review the data or the methodology, but I also suspect a systemic bias.

My personal bias, based on personal experience and on what I believe is plausible and not, is that women are better than men at using foreign (second) languages.

I’m not aware of anything special about Europe which would explain this surprising figure.

The way they measured “proficiency” may have been gender-biased in terms of vocabulary, subjective factors (on the parts of either testers or speakers or both), and “skill” details more relevant to testing than to the day-to-day employment of the skill.

I think men try to hide a lack of skill while women don’t care as much about appearing proficient, while women are more willing to just speak and communicate effectively without self-consciously papering over their own perceived mistakes or malapropisms. This could show up in a test as “more mistakes” while practical communication results could be overlooked by testing..

 

[THBGato]

And why is it the other way around in Africa of all places?

There are a LOT of African women involved in the service industry in various African countries: call centres, the tourism sector, even domestic servants. All those roles would require English as a lingua franca. Women will also often be the ones selling produce at markets where, again, English is often the trade language.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

There are a LOT of African women involved in the service industry in various African countries: call centres, the tourism sector, even domestic servants. All those roles would require English as a lingua franca. Women will also often be the ones selling produce at markets where, again, English is often the trade language.

But that's not something exclusive to Africa... Still, it's mostly Europe that baffles the mind.

My personal bias, based on personal experience and on what I believe is plausible and not, is that women are better than men at using foreign (second) languages.

My own impression is that neither gender is innately better at it but that women are more interested in languages in general and thus should perform better.

The way they measured “proficiency” may have been gender-biased in terms of vocabulary, subjective factors (on the parts of either testers or speakers or both), and “skill” details more relevant to testing than to the day-to-day employment of the skill.

This feels thin to me. It's possible, I suppose, but it looks like this research was being done repeatedly, year after year, and it's very unlikely that whoever is doing the research has neglected to account for such things. We can't judge properly without having access to the research parameters but it still seems unlikely. It feels reasonable to assume that in these times at least, whoever was in charge of such research would account for gender bias or at least that someone from the same field would voice their criticism about the research methodology after all these years.

 

[joy_of_cooking]

Pure anecdata but this gender disparity very much exists among Chinese American restauranteurs (think the people working your local takeout place) and part of it is that there's a bunch of nonverbal communication women can do to smooth things over that would look threatening or creepy from a man.

 

[ronde]

It doesn’t cite any sources so it’s hard to review the data or the methodology, but I also suspect a systemic bias.

My personal bias, based on personal experience and on what I believe is plausible and not, is that women are better than men at using foreign (second) languages.

I’m not aware of anything special about Europe which would explain this surprising figure.

The way they measured “proficiency” may have been gender-biased in terms of vocabulary, subjective factors (on the parts of either testers or speakers or both), and “skill” details more relevant to testing than to the day-to-day employment of the skill.

I think men try to hide a lack of skill while women don’t care as much about appearing proficient, while women are more willing to just speak and communicate effectively without self-consciously papering over their own perceived mistakes or malapropisms. This could show up in a test as “more mistakes” while practical communication results could be overlooked by testing..

While my experience with people who speak English is a second language is limited to French, German, Japanese, and Korean, the vocabulary used by those speakers is enough different that it can sound odd. The reason is the jumbled up mess that forms our English language.

English had multiple words that mean the same or related things. European languages are more definitive, so words that mean one thing to a speaker of English as a first language might not sound right. There's also the problem of tenses.

For example, I once had a French engineer tell me "I would do this process". He didn't mean that as a command. He meant it as a part of the process that had to be done in some way or another. More discussion cleared that up.

In Asian languages, in my experience anyway, words tend to express ideas rather than objects or actions and that can make translation difficult to understand. Just read the manual that comes with any product manufactured in China and you'll see this problem.

 

[Katie_Mae]

I The only thing that comes to my mind is gaming as a source of English skills, as it's still a very much male-dominated area.

I have several acquaintances who learnt English from "watching TV and/or gaming."

Admittedly only one of them is European, and she's a woman.

 

[Jorunn]

In Norway, many people speak at least some English. Before World War II, older relatives say German was often a second language. We do get a fair number of tourists from England plus some exposure to English television shows, movies, and news. I believe women speak English better, but that may be due to the types of jobs they hold. Women are more likely to hold tourist related or office jobs or have been to university. Men who work in forestry, fishing, oil platforms, etc do not hear or speak English as often. (Yes, there are many gender exceptions!)

But speaking English and writing English are different beasts. My Xmas story had over 300 issues in free Grammarly that I fixed. After a few minor changes to my story I went back and Grammarly found 216 more! I think I speak English well, but it does make me wonder. But getting better is one reason why I write here.

 

[Kasumi_Lee]

But speaking English and writing English are different beasts. My Xmas story had over 300 issues in free Grammarly that I fixed. After a few minor changes to my story I went back and Grammarly found 216 more! I think I speak English well, but it does make me wonder. But getting better is one reason why I write here.

Hi Jorunn!

I personally think Grammarly is hugely overrated. It's slightly better than Microsoft Word grammar checker for picking out actual errors, but it tends to flag things that aren't actually mistakes at all because it thinks you're trying to something different to what you're actually trying to say.

It can still be a useful tool, but as a native speaker, I find it isn't very useful. There have also been authors who've used Grammarly extensively to rewrite sentences in their stories, only to have those stories rejected for AI usage, but that's part of the paid version Grammarly.

 

[Pabiporffor]

Part of the problem is foreigners are taught grammatical perfect English while native speakers use a short hand version sprinkled with grunts and made up words. The word "the" is often just reduced to a "uh" sound "to" into a "t" and that's before you even touch on dialects.

 

[StillStunned]

Part of the problem is foreigners are taught grammatical perfect English while native speakers use a short hand version sprinkled with grunts and made up words. The word "the" is often just reduced to a "uh" sound "to" into a "t" and that's before you even touch on dialects.

T'Lion, t'Witch an' t'Wardrobe!

 

[Eshu]

While my experience with people who speak English is a second language is limited to French, German, Japanese, and Korean, the vocabulary used by those speakers is enough different that it can sound odd. The reason is the jumbled up mess that forms our English language.

English had multiple words that mean the same or related things. European languages are more definitive, so words that mean one thing to a speaker of English as a first language might not sound right. There's also the problem of tenses.

For example, I once had a French engineer tell me "I would do this process". He didn't mean that as a command. He meant it as a part of the process that had to be done in some way or another. More discussion cleared that up.

In Asian languages, in my experience anyway, words tend to express ideas rather than objects or actions and that can make translation difficult to understand. Just read the manual that comes with any product manufactured in China and you'll see this problem.

Non-native English speakers tend to make a literal translation of expressions of our mother languages that have no sense in English. For instance, 'kidding' in Spanish is 'tomar el pelo', so if a Mexican says he's 'taking your hair' he is actually meaning he's pulling your leg.

The native speakers of Romance languages also tend to use 30% of the English vocabulary of French origin due to the Norman domination, because it's more familiar to us. There is also the problem of 'false friends'. The Italian word 'camera' means room, not the device to take photos. Similarly, the Italian word 'fabbrica' and the Spanish 'fábrica' mean 'factory' and not 'fabric'.

Many languages have a lot of synonymous or regional versions for the same term or concept. English is not an exception.

It seems that many Chinese instruction manuals are translated with the Google translator.

 

[Eshu]

I have several acquaintances who learnt English from "watching TV and/or gaming."

Admittedly only one of them is European, and she's a woman.

I don't think you can learn a language just by watching TV.

But you forget the language you learned at school if you don't practice it later, and the mainstream culture of the Anglosphere gives you many opportunities to keep your English alive. The French I learned when I was a teenager is completely rusty.

 

[Writer61]

Non-native English speakers tend to make a literal translation of expressions of our mother languages that have no sense in English.

When speaking to non-native speakers I try to avoid expressions for this reason.

Direct translation of fairly standard responses can sound weird too. When someone wishes me a good evening in Dutch my reply is often "Jij ook" ('You too') instead of the normal response of "Het zelfde" ('the same').

There is also the problem of 'false friends'. The Italian word 'camera' means room, not the device to take photos. Similarly, the Italian word 'fabbrica' and the Spanish 'fábrica' mean 'factory' and not 'fabric'.

Also a problem the other way around. Although Dutch has given me an insight into the origin/sense of some English words of Saxon origin.

Many languages have a lot of synonymous or regional versions for the same term or concept. English is not an exception.

Indeed. I tend to 'code-switch' into appropriate vocabulary according to which English-speaking country I am in.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Hi Jorunn!

I personally think Grammarly is hugely overrated. It's slightly better than Microsoft Word grammar checker for picking out actual errors, but it tends to flag things that aren't actually mistakes at all because it thinks you're trying to something different to what you're actually trying to say.

It can still be a useful tool, but as a native speaker, I find it isn't very useful. There have also been authors who've used Grammarly extensively to rewrite sentences in their stories, only to have those stories rejected for AI usage, but that's part of the paid version Grammarly.

Part of the problem also, is that Grammarly is designed more for formal or business writing. It's not so good for fiction. As you say, basic Word grammar catches most of the basics, as does the spellcheck to catch typos.