closed Thread

[policywank]

The we agree.


Irrelevant to whether more consideration should be placed on civilian casualties.

Nonsense. If Hamas won't let civilians get out of the way using precision guided bombs will have no beneficial effect. And given that they are scarce a rationale combatant will save them for when they are most needed eater for military purpose or to save the most civilian lives

They have some that aren't being used and are using dumb bombs instead.

Nonsense. Israel must plan for the long haul. Only a fool would use their more valuable weapons for no net benefit when they might be desperately needed later.

What is the cost of war?

For Israel it is their very existence. If they can only afford so many precision guided bombs it is only rational that they prioritize them first and foremost to protect their own population.

Blaming the victims is always a fun approach.

What a trite and unhelpful comment. I am not blaming the victim. I am blaming two possible parties. If Hamas is getting in the way of evacuation then I am blaming them. And if those innocent civilians have nowhere left to flee I am blaming Israel for leaving them nowhere to run. As you can see I am not above faulting Israel. I am just not buying the nonsense that Israel must prioritize Palestinian civilians even over its own civilians.

You are saying that Israel is right to do what it seems necessary and without question.

I am saying that we should be pressuring them to do better
....always.

That isn't what I am saying at all. By all means pressure them to do better. Engage in productive dialogue. Bring pressure to bear. But listen as well. Don't just assume that you know better from your armchair. And don't get into the silly process of allowing real life and death decisions be guided by unpleasant images and harsh realities that we don't wish to consider.

 

[Rightguide]

The Israeli propaganda machine has been pushing this "Hamas cowardly hiding behind civilians" trope from the first day of their genocidal campaign.

It fits their "Israelis Brave, Hamas Cowards" narrative.

You know wat? It's probably true...the population density in Gaza is incredibly dense, you can't shoot a weapon in Gaza without a good chance of hitting a civilian.

My opinion is that the Israeli IDF doesn't give a fuck....like that one Israeli defense minister said "there are no civilians in Gaza".

Like the Japanese did in Manila, the Chinese did in Korea, and the VC did in Vietnam, Hamas has no compunction about hiding behind civilians knowing they too will be targeted. This is why we execute enemy commanders do so.

 

[ll74]

Nonsense. If Hamas won't let civilians get out of the way using precision guided bombs will have no beneficial effect. And given that they are scarce a rationale combatant will save them for when they are most needed eater for military purpose or to save the most civilian lives

And there is always the option of not using bombs at all.

Nonsense. Israel must plan for the long haul. Only a fool would use their more valuable weapons for no net benefit when they might be desperately needed later.

If the long haul is the objective.....yes.
Why would anyone want perpetual war?

For Israel it is their very existence. If they can only afford so many precision guided bombs it is only rational that they prioritize them first and foremost to protect their own population.

They already failed in that regard....see Oct 7.

What a trite and unhelpful comment. I am not blaming the victim. I am blaming two possible parties. If Hamas is getting in the way of evacuation then I am blaming them. And if those innocent civilians have nowhere left to flee I am blaming Israel for leaving them nowhere to run. As you can see I am not above faulting Israel. I am just not buying the nonsense that Israel must prioritize Palestinian civilians even over its own civilians.

"But they didn't move"

Right.
As has been pointed out, Gaza is densely populated.

That isn't what I am saying at all. By all means pressure them to do better. Engage in productive dialogue. Bring pressure to bear. But listen as well. Don't just assume that you know better from your armchair. And don't get into the silly process of allowing real life and death decisions be guided by unpleasant images and harsh realities that we don't wish to consider.

I know that they've killed civilians that were killed because they've used more bombs than Afghanistan in the first two months...that's not armchair anything...it's observation based on facts.

My personal opinion is that Hamas should surrender unconditionally and release all hostages. After that, the UN should take over control until such time as new leadership is found and elected who will be in favor of peace.

And yes, that is highly unlikely......most things are difficult to get to right now...
.but it's better to push for peace than to throw your hands up in the air and say ..."but they won't let me"

 

[pocjet]

And there is always the option of not using bombs at all.

if not bombs, then what?

 

[ll74]

if not bombs, then what?

Troops, drones....sonic weapons....

 

[pocjet]

all being used and you know it


bombs are the best way to destroy FAST

as far as the bogus Afghan comment, Gaza is a city Afghanistan was huts etc with next to no infrastructure, thats why more bombs in one place vs the other

but hey

you gotta just double down on dumb ass comments

 

[ll74]

all being used and you know it


bombs are the best way to destroy FAST

You're getting my point then

as far as the bogus Afghan comment, Gaza is a city Afghanistan was huts etc with next to no infrastructure, thats why more bombs in one place vs the other

Lol.

but hey

you gotta just double down on dumb ass comments

That's your job. Can't wait to see your next thread.

 

[Rightguide]

Poland is your example? Seriously, some of the most anti-semitic people on earth!

All I am saying is that anti-semitism has reared its ugly head again, it was only dormant, and that is what this is all about. It's about killing Jews!! Full stop. I know that's perfectly acceptable for most people, but I don't have to like it or condone it. Many people are anti-semitic whether they realise it or not. Anti-semitism is alive and well, and really is abounding in the US. Plus in Europe, and IMHO it was never dead. So, okay guys let's go ahead and kill all the Jews.

Many solutions have been offered to the Arabs, but as stated above that is not their agenda. They simply want to kill all Israelis, as demonstrated on October 7th, or anyone associated with the Jews, and Israelis. Point for your information,which I'm sure you all know, since you all seem to know so much here, is that over 40 foreign workers, non-Jews were working on our farms and kibbutzim on our southern border on October 7th. They were either murdered or taken hostage. So yes we are forced to try and obliterate Hamas-ISIS.

There are so many examples of what HI is doing in Israel on the West Bank, through the Palestinian Authority, and I know you guys don't believe it. So, I won't bother to list them here, but I know nothing, only you guys know everything.

I invite you all to get on a plane and come and see!

The massive influx of Middle Eastern Muslims into Europe and the United States in the last couple of decades will naturally exacerbate what anti-Semitism already exists in both.

 

[policywank]

And there is always the option of not using bombs at all.

Everyone on this thread is completely unqualified to comment on the details of what is required for the battle. And just not engaging in or being capable of battling an enemy committed to the murder of your people is naive.

If the long haul is the objective.....yes.
Why would anyone want perpetual war?

The long haul has to be the objective. They are under constant threat and there is nothing they can do to change that. Their existence relies upon being ready to defend at a moment's notice. Even western countries that are not subject to anywhere near the same kind of threat would not allow themselves to be left defenceless because they used up all the armaments.

They already failed in that regard....see Oct 7.

So what is your point. Since they failed once they should do so again? Prior to October 7 they still believed in a policy of containment. Hamas changed that and Israel can't afford to repeat their mistake.

"But they didn't move"

Right.
As has been pointed out, Gaza is densely populated.

Again what is your point? Yes, it is a densely populated are in which it is difficult to conduct operations and avoid unnecessary casualties. That has all kinds of complex implications, but for Israel to leave its own citizens vulnerable to another attack because they don't have the stomach for tough decisions isn't one of them.

I know that they've killed civilians that were killed because they've used more bombs than Afghanistan in the first two months...that's not armchair anything...it's observation based on facts.

Afghanistan didn't have a labyrinth of tunnels under ground. Also in case you forgot the U.S. left Afghanistan in disarray and retreated back to the other side of the world after which the Taliban has reassumed control. Israel can't afford to have such a sloppy and pointless outcome.

My personal opinion is that Hamas should surrender unconditionally and release all hostages. After that, the UN should take over control until such time as new leadership is found and elected who will be in favor of peace.

And yes, that is highly unlikely......most things are difficult to get to right now...
.but it's better to push for peace than to throw your hands up in the air and say ..."but they won't let me"

I agree with the first part of this. By all means push for peace, but you can't just ignore the fact that the other party doesn't want peace. Why didn't the U.S. push for peace with the Taliban, or Al-Qaeda or ISIS? Peace is always preferable but if pushing for it means dropping your guard against someone bound and determined to murder you and your family that is a bit of a problem.

 

[ll74]

Everyone on this thread is completely unqualified to comment on the details of what is required for the battle.

Lol...you keep going on with this horse shit.
This isn't a military strategy tribunal...it's a forum.

The long haul has to be the objective. They are under constant threat and there is nothing they can do to change that. Their existence relies upon being ready to defend at a moment's notice. Even western countries that are not subject to anywhere near the same kind of threat would not allow themselves to be left defenceless because they used up all the armaments.

The current objective has been stated as the dismantling of Hamas. If that happens in the short term, then it does.

So what is your point. since they failed once they should do so again? Prior to October 7 they still believed in a policy of containment. Hamas changed that and Israel can't afford to repeat their mistake.

Netanyahu actually gave Hamas money and resources.
They should probably do better than that going forward.

Again what is your point? Yes, it is a densely populated are in which it is difficult to conduct operations and avoid unnecessary casualties. That has all kinds of complex implications, but for Israel to leave its own citizens vulnerable to anoterh attack because they don't have the stomach for tough decisions isn't one of them.

Got it....but you are unqualified to comment...so....

Afghanistan didn't have a labyrinth of tunnels under ground. Also in case you forgot the U.S. left Afghanistan in disarray and retreated back to the otters side of the world after which the Taliban has reassumed control.

That isn't my point. The count is my point.

I agree with the first part of this. By all means push for peace, but you can't just ignore the fact that the other party doesn't want peace. Why didn't the U.S. push for peace with the Taliban, or Al-Qaeda or ISIS? Peace is always preferable but if pushing for it means dropping your guard against someone bound and determined to murder you and your family that is a bit of a problem.

Neither party wants peace.

 

[butters]

Afghanistan didn't have a labyrinth of tunnels under ground.

???

https://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/26/...ly-fortified-ant-farms-deter-bin-laden-s.html

It is in a place like Zhawar, a mountain base called Tora Bora also near the Pakistan border, that the Afghan rumor mill now says Osama bin Laden is hiding with some 1,200 Taliban troops.

But Mr. bin Laden has a lot of options. Afghanistan is a virtual ant farm of thousands of caves, countless miles of tunnels, deeply dug-in bases and heavily fortified bunkers. They are the product of a confluence of ancient history, climate, geology, Mr. bin Laden's own engineering background -- and, 15 years back, a hefty dose of American money from the Central Intelligence Agency.

 

[policywank]

Lol...you keep going on with this horse shit.
This isn't a military strategy tribunal...it's a forum.

Anyone in any forum is entitled to make whatever assertions they like. Some people come here to make uninformed assertions about how the Israelis should conduct the war in Gaza. I came here to state that the situation is a lot more complex than many of those people realize.

The current objective has been stated as the dismantling of Hamas. If that happens in the short term, then it does.

Israeli and the IDF are capable of holding more than one thought in their head at a time. No matter how important is the objective of eliminating Hamas they must be aware of other threats too. The exercise of balancing all threats (known and unknown) against all available resources is surely complex. The premise that they have or can easily obtain more than enough precision guided missiles to finish the job in Gaza and respond to all possible threats is inherently flawed. It is a baseless assumption used to support a preferred narrative.

Netanyahu actually gave Hamas money and resources.
They should probably do better than that going forward.

Yes they should. What's your point? Does making one bad security decision mean they should continue to make bad security decisions?

Got it....but you are unqualified to comment...so....

Exactly. I am unqualified and so are you . That is why I am not commenting on whether or not their actions are justifiable or properly calibrated. Neither one of us knows enough to try to convince anybody else of anything.

Honestly, I think it is an interesting debate. Could they reduce casualties with more guided munitions instead of dumb bombs? By how much? Do they have enough such munitions? At what cost? And if that makes sense can we help? That kind of debate is interesting and can lead to useful outcomes.

That isn't my point. The count is my point.

The count is my point too. It takes a lot more bombs to destroy subway depth tunnels than it does surface structures.

More importantly this is an irrelevant comparison.

As butters notes Afghanistan had its own complexities (caves, etc.). My recollection (purely as a distant and minimally informed civilian) is that the caves of Afghanistan are literally so numerous and elusive that coalition militaries struggled to even find them. And when they did they struggled to bomb deep enough to get at them.

If bombing the fuck out of mountain enclaves in Afghanistan would have defeated the Taliban and unearthed Bin Laden the American military would have done so in a heartbeat and they wouldn't give a fuck about how many bombs they dropped unless it was cause for celebration.

Neither party wants peace.

I don't quite agree but I see your point here at least partially. There are lots of hardline Israelis who don't want peace. Yes that is rooted in some negative history but then that obviously runs both ways so that is no excuse.

One of the things that I do think makes all this harder is that the "who wants peace and who doesn't" factor is not as black and white as many would like to believe.

It is clear that Hamas doesn't want peace and for all intents and purposes they control the position of all Palestinians of Gaza through authoritarian means whether or not all Palestinians agree. Presumably most Gaza's would prefer peace, but it is difficult to know if the peace that they prefer respects the existence of Israel.

Meanwhile, Israel is more open to varying views and on balance more open to peace, but it isn't exactly the ideal partner either. It has extremists and for all of the merits of a vibrant democracy is less than predictable.

 

[policywank]

Sorry for the formatting. My window froze then I copied it so I could send it before finishing it. And it showed up like a resend, so yes I am a tech gimp.

 

[ll74]

Sorry for the formatting. My window froze then I copied it so I could send it before finishing it. And it showed up like a resend, so yes I am a tech gimp.

Yah, I always have to go into raw format and adjust the open and close tags.

Only response is - and my main point - no one wants peace here. Israel wants security, but they basically want to control the Palestinians (that's been their go-to mode really)

I want to give credence to those who want a peaceful, Democratic and free solution for all.. and push our leaders to do the same.

In this conflict, we're only losing on all sides.

 

[policywank]

Yah, I always have to go into raw format and adjust the open and close tags.

Only response is - and my main point - no one wants peace here. Israel wants security, but they basically want to control the Palestinians (that's been their go-to mode really)

I want to give credence to those who want a peaceful, Democratic and free solution for all.. and push our leaders to do the same.

In this conflict, we're only losing on all sides.

I've been fucking around with how to respond to the 'no one wants peace here'. You are not wrong. But it made me think about all of the people who do want peace and the very small proportion of people that control the narrative.

 

[ll74]

I've been fucking around with how to respond to the 'no one wants peace here'. You are not wrong. But it made me think about all of the people who do want peace and the very small proportion of people that control the narrative.

I ignore narratives....that's what you seem to miss here.. this entire thread is nothing but narratives (outside of pieces of information)

The narratives not being mentioned are those pushing for peace. Because the narratives of pointing fingers is what people want.

Shit sucks right now....I'm pushing for peace....it might be futile.....I don't give a shit.

 

[silky52]

You misunderstand Hamas. They are part of the consistent group of Palestinians who since 1947 have called for the destruction of Israel. They are not a government in waiting. They do not want peace. They want Israel eliminated and as many jews as possible killed - that isn't hyperbole, it is their words.

While nobody is blameless the premise that terrorism grew out of the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israeli's is bullshit. From day 1 of the existence of Israel powerful factions within the Palestinian population (first the PLO and later Hamas) called for the destruction of Israel. It was never the case that they were fighting for their own state or to live in peace side by side. There have been numerous attempts at a two state solution all of which the Palestinians have rejected. To the extent that Israel has oppressed them it has been for their own preservation. As I have said before it is grossly naive to see one man holding another man down and concluding on what is happening while disregarding the fact that the latter man is screaming "let me up so I can kill you and your family."

No terrorism isn't simply a response to dissatisfaction unless you count not being able to impose your will on others as a source of dissatisfaction.

They are not listening, or fo not want to.

 

[RandyRebecca]

Bombing the Houthis in Yemen now as well. Another war that Biden's administration has openly taken us into by the looks of it. All this to desperately take the heat off of Israel.

No it isn't good if public pressure doesn't align with your war efforts but that doesn't mean you are wrong. The public didn't agree with Churchill until it was almost too late.

Agreed with Churchill on what? Churchill's priority was always about the Mediterranean and the Red Sea route to India, never about defeating fascism per se. Churchill simply saw, earlier than most people from the British big business and/or aristocratic classes, that Hitler, the Nazis and German imperialism were a direct threat to the interests of his precious British Empire at a time when most of the ruling classes were thinking with naked class interests in opposing the Soviet Union as their biggest threat. The working class, on the other hand, wanted to defeat the Nazi regime and rid the world of fascism. Why else did it take until June 1944 before a western front was opened after the 1940 Dunkirk evacuation? Roosevelt had been pushing Churchill to open up a second front as early as 1942, because Roosevelt wanted Stalin's help to defeat the Japanese in the Far East. Churchill's priority was more about the Mediterranean and Red Sea, so he delayed the second front while giving much more priority to North Africa and Italy.

Wilson left Europe to suffer three years of WW1 before finally engaging because the American people didn't want to get involved.

It was the German Revolution in November 1918 that ended WW1, which came on the first anniversary of the Russian October Revolution. In other words, revolution ended WW1. Without revolution, who knows how long WW1 would have gone on for, with the crazy amount of deaths just so imperialist plunderers could redivide the world's colonies.

As for Wilson, he won a second term in office with the 1916 election, on the basis of keeping the US out of WW1. And then, just 1 month after his second term begins, he takes the US into WW1 and starts the first red scare and later the Palmer Raids. No wonder the Democrats got wiped out in the 1920 presidential election (apart from the Democratic Solid South).

FDR couldn't bring the U.S. into WW2 because Americans preferred to let Hitler do whatever he wanted until such time as the Japanese decided to attack.

Franklin D. Roosevelt was correct where Woodrow Wilson had been wrong. WW1 was purely about redividing the world's colonies among the exploiter classes of the world, and millions of people were sent to their deaths for that! WW2 had the necessity of defeating fascism.

Also, FDR kept winning presidential elections when the US establishment wanted him to lose. So many angry Americans blamed big business for the Wall Street Crash and the Great Depression. The establishment response for the fright that they had received during FDR's presidency was Truman's Cold War against the Soviet Union, and then 1950s McCarthyism and the second red scare, which Eisenhower was very soft on for years.

Those were all situations in which people just didn't want to get involved so the public opposed getting involved until they realized they had no choice. We remember those leaders as heroes no, but the public didn't feel that way back then.

What are the aims of the war? Who benefits? These are the questions. In WW2, we have an interest in defeating fascism. We certainly don't have an interest in imperialist profiteering like what most wars are about.

 

[ll74]

Bombing the Houthis in Yemen now as well. Another war that Biden's administration has openly taken us into by the looks of it. All this to desperately take the heat off of Israel.

The Houthis are disrupting a major shipping channel, so yes, the US protects it's economic interests. You're literally typing on something that is affordable because of that shipping lane.

 

[RandyRebecca]

The Houthis are disrupting a major shipping channel, so yes, the US protects it's economic interests. You're literally typing on something that is affordable because of that shipping lane.

The American billionaires' interests, i.e. the interests of Wall Street, the Pentagon and Silicon Valley. They send our federal taxes to Ukraine and Israel.

 

[ll74]

The American billionaires' interests, i.e. the interests of Wall Street, the Pentagon and Silicon Valley. They send our federal taxes to Ukraine and Israel.

If you don't understand the value of cheap shit to Americans, you're an idiot.

You literally post here because you have the ability to afford the tools you use to post here.

Fucking idiot.

 

[RandyRebecca]

If you don't understand the value of cheap shit to Americans, you're an idiot.

You don't understand that classes have interests, not nationalities.

You literally post here because you have the ability to afford the tools you use to post here.

Nothing moves without workers making the commodities in factories, and then the drivers and pilots of lorries, vans, cars, trains, ships and planes, distributing those commodities across the world. Nothing moves without them. Nothing gets made or distributed without them. These people are workers (grossly underpaid, as they make the world economy work), not billionaires. If these factory workers, drivers and pilots all down tools, society doesn't move and comes grounded to a halt. Think it over.

Fucking idiot.

The irony of that statement.

 

[ll74]

You don't understand that classes have interests, not nationalities.

The price of things impacts all classes and nationalities.

Nothing moves without workers making the commodities in factories, and then the drivers and pilots of lorries, vans, cars, trains, ships and planes. Nothing moves without them. Nothing gets made or distributed without them. These people are workers (grossly underpaid, as they make the world economy work), not billionaires. If these factory workers, drivers and pilots all down tools, society doesn't move and comes grounded to a halt.


The irony of that statement.

Are you an idiot? Yes, you are.

How does Houthis attacking workers that you literally call out here, equate to your position?

The people on these ships are the workers you claim to defend.

You're a fucking moron

 

[MLG1016]

Our enemies are Russia, Iran, China, North Korea. We depend on the judgement of our leaders to do what is best for our country. Biden or Trump or anyone else would ultimately be responsible for those decisions. We no longer have oceans protecting us from the rest of the world. We must act accordingly.
Support those decisions and wish for the best.
As for billionaires and wall street and Silicon Valley, it is what it is, they take theirs and we reap whatever benefits we can, ie. technology and a better way of living.

 

[ll74]

Our enemies are Russia, Iran, China, North Korea. We depend on the judgement of our leaders to do what is best for our country. Biden or Trump or anyone else would ultimately be responsible for those decisions. We no longer have oceans protecting us from the rest of the world. We must act accordingly.
Support those decisions and wish for the best.
As for billionaires and wall street and Silicon Valley, it is what it is, they take theirs and we reap whatever benefits we can, ie. technology and a better way of living.

The thread is meant for new information about the war, not for blame or credit of American interest.