Here's a theory: categories hinder more than help

[MediocreAuthor]

If, for example, you write LW that isn't BTB, or Romance that isn't HEA, you're punished by the expectation of those categories. That's not right, is it?

In the unique case of LW, the BTB fandom seemed to rise up as a reaction to content, rather than actively seeking out content as intended.

There is a group of readers who hate infidelity (okay, cool - me too) but they inexplicably choose to frequent a category originally dedicated to praising that practice.

If you removed categories, there is nothing to stop all the BTB fans from hoping over to any story labeled cuckold, commenting "1* cuck shit", and uno-bombing it.

As far as romance fans hating sad endings, I think that just comes with the territory.

Imagine if there were no categories. Now people search for the Romance tag. Cool.

HEA fans search "Romance" and find a sad story with that tag. Then they also uno-bomb it.

What really changed?

 

[lovecraft68]

Nothing ever does until someone instigates it.

People have been instigating change for years. The MO of the site is to change nothing people ask for and create changes no one wanted.
Something as major as dumping categories is not going to happen and understand the motto of this site, which has trickled down to some of the posters here is like it or leave.

 

[lovecraft68]

Not sure if you're agreeing or making a point, but that's what I was going for. Reluctance is not non-con; non-con is not reluctance. They are more than sufficiently different to not be grouped, IMO.

Happy Ever After

If you look at my "you just bought lit' thread I mention Reluctance being put in place of Mind control which will be lumped in with NC because it is pure NC. Basically a swap so the different category is alone and the two rape categories together

 

[AwkwardlySet]

If you're implying that change has been tried and failed, I don't disagree, but if (by some miracle) an accord could be reached, would not a majority of writers requesting the same thing make a difference? I think it might. I'm somewhat averse to the 'not prepared to try because I know it will fail' mentality.

You have no idea how many times I've been in this exact situation, saying the exact same things. It never amounted to anything because, well, nothing ever happens on Lit. It just doesn't. I could name reasons for that, but one of them is definitely the mentality of people here, a combination of past experience, resignation, laziness, being well-adjusted to Lit, caring only about one's own interests, and so on. I don't believe that there is even an infinitesimal chance of anything happening, and even if you get some decent support here, which you won't, even then, you won't get any response from those who truly matter.

Yet I'll voice my support for your idea despite all that I've said because it's the right thing to do and because I don't want to become well-adjusted to Lit. Good luck

 

[Altissimus]

What really changed?

Dunno, maybe nothing. Or maybe the Romance crowd don't immediately assume something tagged Romance is a HEA Romance just because it has a Romance tag. There's 29,438 stories with a Romance tag that aren't in the Romance category. Maybe, just maybe, it'll make people more open minded?

 

[Altissimus]

You have no idea how many times I've been in this exact situation, saying the exact same things. It never amounted to anything because, well, nothing ever happens on Lit. It just doesn't. I could name reasons for that, but one of them is definitely the mentality of people here, a combination of past experience, resignation, laziness, being well-adjusted to Lit, caring only about one's own interests, and so on. I don't believe that there is even an infinitesimal chance of anything happening, and even if you get some decent support here, which you won't, even then, you won't get any response from those who truly matter.

Yet I'll voice my support for your idea despite all that I've said because it's the right thing to do and because I don't want to become well-adjusted to Lit. Good luck

Why thank you, old chap, your encouragement is most inspiring. I shall proceed to PM Laurel directly, your words ringing in my shell-like ears.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

Dunno, maybe nothing. Or maybe the Romance crowd don't immediately assume something tagged Romance is a HEA Romance just because it has a Romance tag. There's 29,438 stories with a Romance tag that aren't in the Romance category. Maybe, just maybe, it'll make people more open minded?

Romance fans love HEAs and little else?

Huh... Who Knew?

 

[MediocreAuthor]

The sad ending doesn't have to be tagged romance. It doesn't have to be tagged any of the upper-level tags. I think that's the point.

The story I'm indirectly referencing got placed in Romance because:
1) It's about love
2) No one reads non-erotic

The HEA fans rated it below what it deserved, as a result. My point is that tags (imho) are often no better at avoiding back-lash than categories would be.

 

[PennameWombat]

Yes! A menu of tags for writers to choose from and readers to browse through would be far superior to vague, inaccurate, or overlapping genres.

This already exists.

https://tags.literotica.com/

The 'tag cloud' shows, by relative sizes, tag usage, larger equals more relative use than others. Either in general or, select along the right, and it'll show the tag usage in a Category (whether you believe Categories should exist or not.)

Put a tag or tags into the search box and it'll pop up stories using those tags. Or, click on a tag and it'll pop up stories using that tag, then you can sort by Views, Ratings, Newest or Favorites.

But these depend on whatever tags an Author put on their stories, and a story can have a maximum of ten tags. But it can provide specifics, assuming the author chose wisely.

For better or worse, when I'm submitting a story, I pull up this page and scroll through tag usage for whatever Category. Sometimes I pick the popular ones, and sometimes I use more focused but less-used ones.

 

[RejectReality]

Are you going to go through and retag hundreds of thousands of stories so they'll be useable with tag-based navigation? Fix all the spelling errors? Collate the dozens of varieties of saying the same thing? ( blowjob, fellatio, suck dick, etc. )

Giving the tags higher visibility and more utility would ultimately benefit everyone. Getting rid of categories would make finding anything here a chore that would chase people away in favor of sites with more categories or established tag-based systems that are usable.

 

[Altissimus]

Romance fans love HEAs and little else?

Huh... Who Knew?

I feel called out.

Are you going to go through and retag hundreds of thousands of stories so they'll be useable with tag-based navigation? Fix all the spelling errors? Collate the dozens of varieties of saying the same thing? ( blowjob, fellatio, suck dick, etc. )

Giving the tags higher visibility and more utility would ultimately benefit everyone. Getting rid of categories would make finding anything here a chore that would chase people away in favor of sites with more categories or established tag-based systems that are usable.

Would it really be so tough to tag every old story according to their current category? The tag-based system on Lit already is useable, and there's a text/title search too. I reiterate: the changes are for the writers, not the readers. The readers would be fundamentally unaffected by this suggestion, if they so chose to be. Alternatively, maybe they'd be more inclined to use the search system if (somehow) they weren't already doing so.

 

[PennameWombat]

Maybe a 'General' category would help? I feel like there's potentially some value, for some, in reading and writing while embracing all the tropes and expectations that come with genre/category. It can be fun. Want to write a sci-fi romp? Do it, and put it where people are looking for exactly that. But if you want to straddle the lines, bend the rules, color outside all the boxes, then put your content where people might be looking for a little nuance. There's certainly some value in that, too. But I don't believe that's what everyone is looking for.

I'll argue that "General" categories already exist, that don't imply specific tropes:

• Erotic stories: Erotic Coupling (EC)
• Non-erotic stories: Non-Erotic
• Stories with sex but the focus isn't sex or eroticism (so can't go into Non-Erotic and you don't want them in EC): Novels and Novellas (N&N)

At least, that's my view of N&N.

 

[alohadave]

Are you going to go through and retag hundreds of thousands of stories so they'll be useable with tag-based navigation? Fix all the spelling errors? Collate the dozens of varieties of saying the same thing? ( blowjob, fellatio, suck dick, etc. )

Giving the tags higher visibility and more utility would ultimately benefit everyone. Getting rid of categories would make finding anything here a chore that would chase people away in favor of sites with more categories or established tag-based systems that are usable.

Assigning a keyword to all stories in a category is fairly simple. If they were getting rid of categories, assigning a tag with the old category name would be the simplest way to handle it.

Nothing else would change for searching for stories since all the other existing tags would remain. The only thing that might need to change is the number of tags allowed.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

I feel called out.

Not really. You wrote a good story, which got unfairly (although predictably) dragged down by HEA fans.

Personally, I love the categories, because I love seeing my story on the new stories list in the category of my choice.

I loathe AO3's system, although I acknowledge that my way is not the only acceptable way

 

[PennameWombat]

Assigning a keyword to all stories in a category is fairly simple. If they were getting rid of categories, assigning a tag with the old category name would be the simplest way to handle it.

Nothing else would change for searching for stories since all the other existing tags would remain. The only thing that might need to change is the number of tags allowed.

No, not nothing would change. Readers would have to be "retrained" to the new methods. I just responded to one posting here that implied the poster didn't know that tag browsing and searching already exists. Readers are absolutely free to use it today, right now, and ignore categories entirely.

So readers already using tags as you describe are... already using tags as you describe.

But, given that many features here - New Story lists, Top Lists, etc. etc. - are intertwined with Categories means a huge and significant upheaval of the sites entire user experience to get rid of categories. Unless, by assigning the 'Category Keyword' you mention, you simply keep keying all the stuff keyed to Categories to key off those Keywords.... why disrupt things?

There is no perfect sorting or assignment system, hell, librarians still discuss how to improve or replace the Dewey Decimal System, and the US Library of Congress has a different system. My guess is that the tsuris about Categories is WAY more pronounced here on AH than by any significant number of readers on the site.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Not really. You wrote a good story, which got unfairly (although predictably) dragged down by HEA fans.

Personally, I love the categories, because I love seeing my story on the new stories list in the category of my choice.

I loathe AO3's system, although I acknowledge that my way is not the only acceptable way

There is a certain amount of chaos there, but not because of the tag system per se, but because they have no restrictions on tags whatsoever. You can put a hundred tags in your story. Or two hundred. Good luck noticing anything in that endless sea of tags. Also, you can write literally anything as a tag. "Natasha Romanoff eating mashed potatoes with her fingers" is a valid tag there. Judging by some tags I've seen, the tag I mentioned would probably look even normal

 

[alohadave]

My guess is that the tsuris about Categories is WAY more pronounced here on AH than by any significant number of readers on the site.

I said as much in a previous post.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

There is a certain amount of chaos there, but not because of the tag system per se, but because they have no restrictions on tags whatsoever. You can put a hundred tags in your story. Or two hundred. Good luck noticing anything in that endless sea of tags. Also, you can write literally anything as a tag. "Natasha Romanoff eating mashed potatoes with her fingers" is a valid tag there. Judging by some tags I've seen, the tag I mentioned would probably look even normal

Honestly, while the tags are insane, I sometimes enjoy the stupid jokes people put in the tags.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Honestly, while the tags are insane, I sometimes enjoy the stupid jokes people put in the tags.

Well, AO3 is mostly fandom-oriented, so both readers and authors are probably much younger on average than Lit users. There is plenty of teenage humor there.

 

[Bamagan]

There is a certain amount of chaos there, but not because of the tag system per se, but because they have no restrictions on tags whatsoever. You can put a hundred tags in your story. Or two hundred. Good luck noticing anything in that endless sea of tags. Also, you can write literally anything as a tag. "Natasha Romanoff eating mashed potatoes with her fingers" is a valid tag there. Judging by some tags I've seen, the tag I mentioned would probably look even normal

Not true! There's a character limit for tags. I just tried to enter it and this is as close as it comes:
"Natasha Romanoff eating mashed potatoes with her f"

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Not true! There's a character limit for tags. I just tried to enter it and this is as close as it comes:
"Natasha Romanoff eating mashed potatoes with her f"

You amateur. You should have used smaller potatoes

 

[Bamagan]

You amateur. You should have used smaller potatoes

The real bizarreness is that I actually just wrote a chapter today which had an offhand remark about the FMC eating meatloaf and mashed potatoes with her fingers. Her name is nothing like Natasha Romanoff, though.

 

[lovecraft68]

There is plenty of teenage humor there.

Just there? You haven't been reading the new AH playground lately, have you?

 

[Duleigh]

There's sites out there without categories, why should Literotica even consider sinking into the putrid morass? You make a (opinionated) argument that doing away with categories and relying soleley on tags would be an improvement, but you fail to say HOW it would be an improvement.

AO3, for example, almost-exclusively uses tags

Well, yeah because its ONE category, it's fandom, yet when you open the page there's a dozen categories of fandom listed including uncategorized fandom, so AO3 is a really bad example. Really bad.

So without categories, how do you propose to conduct Top Lists? MANY readers come here and go straight to top lists in their favorite category to find a story to read. Do you suggest doing away with all measures of excellence and allow all stories to just float about in a stew of mediocrity? Maybe do away with all writer recognition, make all stories anonymous, that's only fair, because having a favorite writer is also a category.

 

[Altissimus]

There's sites out there without categories, why should Literotica even consider sinking into the putrid morass?

I think suggesting a category-free, advanced-tag search mechanism is akin to a 'putrid morass' may be a little hyperbolic.

You make a (opinionated) argument that doing away with categories and relying soleley on tags would be an improvement, but you fail to say HOW it would be an improvement.

I note you found my argument opinionated. I suppose most newly-presented arguments could be described as 'opinionated', if one so desired. I believe I stated in my original post why it would be an improvement. The how of the matter rather depends on how the idea would be implemented. A variety of options come to mind.

Well, yeah because its ONE category, it's fandom, yet when you open the page there's a dozen categories of fandom listed including uncategorized fandom, so AO3 is a really bad example. Really bad.

It isn't one category, actually. It's not even one genre. AO3 allows non-fandom work and, as you yourself point out, further breaks down the fandom into categories. Yet these are customisable and non-exhaustive. The primary point is that it's predominant search methodology is something quite different - akin more to Lit's advanced search.

So without categories, how do you propose to conduct Top Lists? MANY readers come here and go straight to top lists in their favorite category to find a story to read. Do you suggest doing away with all measures of excellence and allow all stories to just float about in a stew of mediocrity? Maybe do away with all writer recognition, make all stories anonymous, that's only fair, because having a favorite writer is also a category.

Top Lists could be achieved in a variety of ways without too much trouble. You could have, for example, top lists for each of the most-used top 20 or top 50 tags. You could even devise top lists on combinations of tags - now there's an idea: simply fill in the tags of your choice, tick the box, and the top 100 stories with those tags come up. No, I do not suggest doing away with all measures of excellence and allowing all stories to just float about in a stew of mediocrity. I think your suggestion that it's fair to make all stories anonymous would not be a popular one, but feel free to make a thread about it if you feel you wish to propose it more widely.