What's unique or different about your style?

[JaxRhapsody]

Wasting time stepping through shit is most story sites.

I'd like to add that possibly my use of scene changes and jumpcuts at the degree I use them, is probably unique. A good or bad unique, I'll let the readers decide.

 

[Fatdog25]

I'm not sure what my style is called yet...

I try to write the kind of story I like to read. The only thing that seems unique or different about that is that there aren't many current writers who write that kind of story. Judging from the comments I've received, there is an audience for them.

I don't do it as well as I would like to but I'm working on that. Only time will tell if I'm successful.

 

[countdowntolov3]

I know what I'm trying to do. Which is to write filthy smut, but populate it with characters who are insecure, or conflicted, or neurotic, and so get in their own way and make interesting decisions. Sometimes I think I get it right for a paragraph or two.

 

[SimonDoom]

I do to.

But the vast plague of plotless fap fantasy on lit with Red Hs proves my point in general that the masses don't.

A good score doesn't necessarily mean a bad story at all, but the score means nothing. I've admitted it before and I'll say it again. I don't read too much on lit, and the reason that I don't is on the occasions that I have gone looking, I had to waste so much time stepping through shit to find something worth reading that it's just not practical. Now, there's nothing wrong with these stories, it's just that cardboard characters with hot measurements and libido of the richter for no real reason, does not appeal to me. It also doesn't help that many are also centered around some specific kink that bores my mostly vanilla tastes. That's purely my problem, not anyone else's. But in what I have read, outside of N/N, not one single piece that I've read and enjoyed had a Red H.

You've said yourself that you "don't read too much on lit," so you're obviously not qualified to opine on stories generally or on what kinds of stories do well, because you have an insufficient sample size from which to draw conclusions.

The data don't back you up. My experiences and observations of over 20 years of reading Lit stories contradict yours. Sure, there are plenty of short, shallow stories that do well, but the stories that do best in terms of scores tend to be longer and have more development. 8Letters has done some data sleuthing and published his results in this forum, and the results are clear: stories tend to score higher as page length increases over 1 page to 4 pages or more. 4 Lit pages is about 15,000 words, which is by any traditional measure a long short story. The average short story in The New Yorker or elsewhere is usually shorter than that. If a story is 4 Lit pages, by definition it must be more than a short stroker. So the data flatly contradict your opinion that Lit readers mainly want short meaningless fap stories.

The key is this thing you said: "But in what I have read, outside of N/N, not one single piece that I've read and enjoyed had a Red H."

Let's think about that. There are PLENTY of stories at Literotica with red Hs that are long and complex and have conflict and good writing -- and you don't like a single one. That reflects on you, not the site.

I read your story Hit n Run. There's no question, you can write. Your prose is significantly better than the average at Literotica. I liked the way you described the car crash. You can tell a story. Your story has traces of Flannery O'Connor--Southern small-town setting, lots of darkness, surprises for the worse, people being unfathomably bad, bad things happening to good people. I love Flannery O'Connor, so I can appreciate that kind of storytelling. I thought the ending of your story was contrived but the rest was well told.

But it's not at all erotic. It offers no erotic pleasure, despite the fact that the sex is described well. It didn't make sense to me why Lainey had sex with an obviously sociopathic prick who just totaled her car, and I wasn't erotically stimulated when they got it on. I have sophisticated literary tastes, but when I come to Literotica I want stories that are erotic, period. I'll go elsewhere for other stories. I have no interest in reading non-erotic stories at Literotica, and I think most (though not all) Literotica readers feel the same way.

I think you're just looking for something different. That's fine. Your opinion and tastes are as valid as anyone's. But don't put up the pretense that you're looking for something more sophisticated and Lit is just a haven of slack-jawed fappers. That's not true. You're entitled to your own opinion, as they say, but you're not entitled to your own facts.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

The key is this thing you said: "But in what I have read, outside of N/N, not one single piece that I've read and enjoyed had a Red H."

Let's think about that. There are PLENTY of stories at Literotica with red Hs that are long and complex and have conflict and good writing -- and you don't like a single one. That reflects on you, not the site.

I never said that there wasn't. I'm sure that there are many. Just that there are far far more weakly written strokers with Red Hs than strong pieces with red Hs. It's a matter of how much time I have to spend waste trying to find them, and the score won't help me (or you) find a well-written piece (except in N/N - maybe). You're statement is flawed because you assume that I have actually read all of the Red H stories on lit (or at least a substantial amount of them) and therefore I have determined that none of them are good. That's not true at all. Just in my relatively small (small, not microscopic) sampling, I have not found one yet, although I have read dozens of Red H stories. Just the stories that I have felt were a cut above, they are mostly under 4.

I have sophisticated literary tastes, but when I come to Literotica I want stories that are erotic, period. I'll go elsewhere for other stories. I have no interest in reading non-erotic stories at Literotica, and I think most (though not all) Literotica readers feel the same way.

Which backs up my stance that most readers here come for fantasy first and story (an often distant if at all) second.

And thank you very much for your detailed feedback on my story. That is greatly appreciated.

 

[mirafrida]

Sure, there are plenty of short, shallow stories that do well, but the stories that do best in terms of scores tend to be longer and have more development. 8Letters has done some data sleuthing and published his results in this forum, and the results are clear: stories tend to score higher as page length increases over 1 page to 4 pages or more.

No doubt this is objectively true. But personally, I find there's an effect that makes what pink_silk_glove said feel true, which is that invariably after I post a story, and it's a couple of days old and has been voted down to 3.9, I will see a range of other stories also published in that category in the last few days that are rated considerably higher, while striking me as rather flimsy or trite

 

[SimonDoom]

No doubt this is objectively true. But personally, I find there's an effect that makes what pink_silk_glove said feel true, which is that invariably after I post a story, and it's a couple of days old and has been voted down to 3.9, I will see a range of other stories also published in that category in the last few days that are rated considerably higher, while striking me as rather flimsy or trite

I think we all feel this. We are all biased because we write the stories that appeal to us (most of us, I assume), so we see stories that do better than ours and it doesn't feel right. I feel that ALL the time. As much as anyone else, believe me. But it's important to step back and not force narratives on the site when the actual facts, looked at from a more objective perspective, don't support those narratives. It's a big tent with a lot of different tastes.

 

[countdowntolov3]

I think it's not a phenomenon specific to erotica that a kind of bland, un-challenging, almost formulaic product is the most reliable way to get high ratings. Consider your favorite franchise of Hollywood blockbusters. They don't have paint-by-numbers plots because that's what self actualizes the writing team. Somebody did the market research and found this will get the number of bums in seats needed to make the movie a financial success. And if they try something risky, they might miss, and have a flop.

Buuut, just because watered down easy-to-consume formula is a recipe for mainstream success (or a red H), it doesn't mean that more meaty and challenging work can't also succeed. It might be a little more high-risk high-reward, but we, unlike Hollywood execs, don't have careers on the line. So we can try the arthouse route if we want.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I got a text from Dad that a friend had dropped a bag full of jalapenos he's roasting tonight. Once they are nice and toasty, he'll chop them up for his next chili. I bet there is more than enough for a couple of batches. He might put them in a picante sauce too. He does that, and makes his own spices.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I think we all feel this. We are all biased because we write the stories that appeal to us (most of us, I assume), so we see stories that do better than ours and it doesn't feel right. I feel that ALL the time. As much as anyone else, believe me. But it's important to step back and not force narratives on the site when the actual facts, looked at from a more objective perspective, don't support those narratives. It's a big tent with a lot of different tastes.

You've made this point before but the data is incomplete. The data does not account for smut ratio. There is no statistical tool on lit to account for smut. There are two axes on the graph, on the x axis we have kink, and on the y axis we have smut ratio. If we move along x to say ... anal, how much of the anal crowd wants smutty anal and how much prefers story anal? We can't measure y we can't say accurately, but it's pretty safe to assume that the majority want smut. Look at all the stroke stories that do so well, and of course we would expect that given that it's effectively a porn site with traffic coming from other porn and cam sites. If we move along x to say ... interracial, how many of the interracial crowd want smutty interracial and how many want story interracial? Same deal.

You've stated your case many times, concluding that statistically you can isolate quality of story/writing/prose as a factor in scoring given a big enough sample. And again I will state that you are talking to another statistics student so understand the math that you present. I disagree that you can isolate quality as a factor in voting as there is no measure for quality in lit statistics. There is no measure for plot. There is no measure for depth of characters. There is no measure for motive. Absolutely you can isolate category as a factor, as category is clearly defined on lit. Absolutely you can isolate length as a factor. Length is not quality. Not by a long shot. There are so many factors that go into voting and few readers vote the same. Hell, someone could be thoroughly enjoying your piece until it is revealed at the bottom of page 2 that your lead character is a Republican. Stop right there, fuck that, 1 star! You know that it happens.

One cannot write full smut and full story at the same time. It's smut ratio because it is literally a ratio. Most of us write in word or office and it gives a word count. Check your full word count, then drag select each of your sex scenes and add up the word counts of those. If your story is 10k and your sexy bits add up to 4k, you're at 40%. If you add another 2000 words of plot, then your smut goes down to 33% even though you haven't removed a word of smut. If people are looking for smut and you give them plot, they start to scroll. If the scroll too much you won't get a Red H. This doesn't necessarily mean that your story is bad - at all. But the spread sheets and data don't account for it.

What is the average score of quality pieces on lit? Who knows? 4.1 maybe? What is the average score of poorly written or plotless smut? 4.1 maybe? (shrug). The scores tell you nothing in that regard. That doesn't mean that there aren't any 4.9 fantastic reads out there, nor 2.9 great reads neither. And the same can be said for rank amateur stuff.

Which is fine because one the great things about lit is that rank amateurs can post their stuff and be read ... by thousands! The downside is, if you want to read something decent, you have to wade through thousands of amateurs.

If you want to isolate quality as a factor in scores, you need 100 stories in the same category, in the same contest (or all non-contest) of all similar length, by 100 different authors and get a group of 50 readers and have those exact same 50 readers vote on all of those 100 stories. Then you could start to isolate quality as a factor in votes. I could be wrong but I would guess it would be negligible. I certainly would be curious to know that number though and see just how far off I am.

 

[TadOverdon]

Not a thing I'm aware of.

 

[ElectricBlue]

If you add another 2000 words of plot, then your smut goes down to 33% even though you haven't removed a word of smut. If people are looking for smut and you give them plot, they start to scroll. If the scroll too much you won't get a Red H. This doesn't necessarily mean that your story is bad - at all. But the spread sheets and data don't account for it.

You keep saying this, but where's your evidence? Like the rest of us, you have no idea what readers do. As I said in another thread, I don't think you can correlate chat responses to reader responses - they're two different mind sets, surely, in terms of the experience they're after.

Fact remains, some of us have a low smut ratio (not that I've ever quantified mine by word-count, just gut feeling on my own content because, you know, I wrote it) but my stories do pretty well, with 80% Red H.

My data set is a million plus words, 120 chapters/stories, and a fair comment count (not LW volumes, sure), so I have a fair idea why my followers read my stories. And broadly speaking, it's not only for getting off, but for something more. But they do get off, too, and tell me so.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

You keep saying this, but where's your evidence? Like the rest of us, you have no idea what readers do. As I said in another thread, I don't think you can correlate chat responses to reader responses - they're two different mind sets, surely, in terms of the experience they're after.

Fact remains, some of us have a low smut ratio (not that I've ever quantified mine by word-count, just gut feeling on my own content because, you know, I wrote it) but my stories do pretty well, with 80% Red H.

My data set is a million plus words, 120 chapters/stories, and a fair comment count (not LW volumes, sure), so I have a fair idea why my followers read my stories. And broadly speaking, it's not only for getting off, but for something more. But they do get off, too, and tell me so.

You dismiss all of my arguments on the basis that I have no evidence. Nobody else has proper evidence either, yet their claims are all valid except mine. That's fine, believe what you want.

Your specific claim here is that you personally have 80% Red Hs and that obviously your work is of high quality, therefore a Red H is a sign of quality. But that is hardly an accurate sample of lit stories. It's a drop in the bucket and a specific non-random one at that. It's not even a cross-section. Assuming that you are in the top 99th percentile of quality writers here. Your stats alone tell us nothing about the thousands upon myriads of other authors here.

I posed the question before and it still stands. What is the average score for a good quality piece on lit? What is the average score for a poor quality piece on lit? No one can answer that. Until you can, no one can claim that a higher score means a higher quality piece of work, at all. No one can isolate quality as a factor in voting. The data available is simply not adequate to do so.

 

[ElectricBlue]

You dismiss all of my arguments on the basis that I have no evidence. Nobody else has proper evidence either, yet their claims are all valid except mine. That's fine, believe what you want.

You've not made an argument. You've made statements as if they're self evident home truths, but they're not backed by anything. At least Simon will do a data dump or two.

I'm not talking about measures of quality. I'm talking about your contention that 99% of folk want smut to get themselves off, and nothing more. Whereas nearly every AH writer (and yes, I know we're a tiny minority) says, "Well, I usually give 'em a bit more than that, and no-one seems to mind."

You've made the claim (and have done so repeatedly) that readers are only here for the jerk off, but you haven't once said, "Here's my maths." You drew a parallel from the Chat community, but that's been about it.

All I saying is, show me your argument. You might be right, I don't know, but you are making pretty hard statements, and there's an underlying suggestion that we're all deluded because we disagree.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

You've not made an argument. You've made statements as if they're self evident home truths, but they're not backed by anything. At least Simon will do a data dump or two.

And I've stated how his data is insufficient. He has no more math than I or anyone else insofar as isolating quality as a factor in lit voting. If you think otherwise show me what I've missed in his math.

I'm not talking about measures of quality. I'm talking about your contention that 99% of folk want smut to get themselves off, and nothing more. Whereas nearly every AH writer (and yes, I know we're a tiny minority) says, "Well, I usually give 'em a bit more than that, and no-one seems to mind."

As I was originally discussing with Simon, his argument over several threads is that he can in fact quantify quality in voting through statistics. My arguments clearly show that we can't. That's what that was about and you joined in so yes that is the point at hand.

You've made the claim (and have done so repeatedly) that readers are only here for the jerk off, but you haven't once said, "Here's my maths." You drew a parallel from the Chat community, but that's been about it.

I've never said that readers are only here to fap. I may have said it once or twice in hyperbole, but I have also many many many times admitted that hyperbole and have stated many times that of course yes there are people here looking for world builds, characters plot twists and motive, they are just minority.

All I saying is, show me your argument. You might be right, I don't know, but you are making pretty hard statements, and there's an underlying suggestion that we're all deluded because we disagree.

Please find a quote of me ever suggesting that anyone was deluded for disagreeing with me, aside from possibly putting a rare spiteful troll individually in his place.

And for the third time. What is the average score of a high quality piece on lit and what is the average score of a poor quality piece on lit? If you can't answer this, no math is admissible in this debate. I wish that it were.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I've never said that readers are only here to fap. I may have said it once or twice in hyperbole, but I have also many many many times admitted that hyperbole and have stated many times that of course yes there are people here looking for world builds, characters plot twists and motive, they are just minority.

I missed the hyperbole, then. And we'll have to agree to disagree on your first sentence, because that's pretty much been your party line since you turned up here

Please find a quote of me ever suggesting that anyone was deluded for disagreeing with me, aside from possibly putting a rare spiteful troll individually in his place.

There's an attitude that comes across. You can be quite dismissive.

And for the third time. What is the average score of a high quality piece on lit and what is the average score of a poor quality piece on lit? If you can't answer this, no math is admissible in this debate. I wish that it were.

That's never been my debate. But since you ask, my gut feel, based on my random dip into stories, is that anything above 4:30, thereabouts, is going to be reasonable, and anything below 3:50, pretty woeful.

I subscribe to the view that, if you have enough people voting (granted, one percent of Views is down in the noise), and each person has their own scoring criteria and sticks to it, then the result of that collective input does mean something. I also think most people vote 3, 4 and 5, so there's a skew high. That is, the average is more likely 4, rather than 3.

 

[alohadave]

I feel like my work is tending to have themes of control/loss of control.

It's an inherent conflict that relies on internal thoughts and feelings. Whether or not it comes through to readers, I don't know, but I can see it.

 

[StillStunned]

I'm beginning to realise that my style is to be distracted by short side projects all the time, instead of finishing longer stories I've been working on.

 

[stickygirl]

I've always thought style is something other people ascribe to you. If you're overly conscious of how you write then you're likely to strangle innovation.
I don't think Beethoven or Dvorak wrote with a style in mind, though perhaps it was modified by their times but their style is instantly recognisable, in retrospect.
I've read authors and loved the first book I happened to pick up - loved the style, only to find subsequent novels not to my taste at all. If anything I'd say keep experimenting, have fun and allow yourself to write to surprise yourself.

 

[burgwad]

@pink_silk_glove Your twisty, detail-rich style has abundant merit. Ignore these guys.

 

[R. Richard]

The key to my writing is plot. Each of my stories has a real plot. I also spell check and attempt to self edit.

 

[NoTalentHack]

Fuck, man. I have no idea, I just hope it keeps working.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

@pink_silk_glove Your twisty, detail-rich style has abundant merit. Ignore these guys.

Thank you, but no one here has criticized my style. Furthermore no one here has even really attacked me. Oh, I've been attacked and maligned in other threads but Simon and blue have maintained civility in their arguments here.

 

[8letters]

You've said yourself that you "don't read too much on lit," so you're obviously not qualified to opine on stories generally or on what kinds of stories do well, because you have an insufficient sample size from which to draw conclusions.

The data don't back you up. My experiences and observations of over 20 years of reading Lit stories contradict yours. Sure, there are plenty of short, shallow stories that do well, but the stories that do best in terms of scores tend to be longer and have more development. 8Letters has done some data sleuthing and published his results in this forum, and the results are clear: stories tend to score higher as page length increases over 1 page to 4 pages or more. 4 Lit pages is about 15,000 words, which is by any traditional measure a long short story. The average short story in The New Yorker or elsewhere is usually shorter than that. If a story is 4 Lit pages, by definition it must be more than a short stroker. So the data flatly contradict your opinion that Lit readers mainly want short meaningless fap stories.

The key is this thing you said: "But in what I have read, outside of N/N, not one single piece that I've read and enjoyed had a Red H."

Let's think about that. There are PLENTY of stories at Literotica with red Hs that are long and complex and have conflict and good writing -- and you don't like a single one. That reflects on you, not the site.

I read your story Hit n Run. There's no question, you can write. Your prose is significantly better than the average at Literotica. I liked the way you described the car crash. You can tell a story. Your story has traces of Flannery O'Connor--Southern small-town setting, lots of darkness, surprises for the worse, people being unfathomably bad, bad things happening to good people. I love Flannery O'Connor, so I can appreciate that kind of storytelling. I thought the ending of your story was contrived but the rest was well told.

But it's not at all erotic. It offers no erotic pleasure, despite the fact that the sex is described well. It didn't make sense to me why Lainey had sex with an obviously sociopathic prick who just totaled her car, and I wasn't erotically stimulated when they got it on. I have sophisticated literary tastes, but when I come to Literotica I want stories that are erotic, period. I'll go elsewhere for other stories. I have no interest in reading non-erotic stories at Literotica, and I think most (though not all) Literotica readers feel the same way.

I think you're just looking for something different. That's fine. Your opinion and tastes are as valid as anyone's. But don't put up the pretense that you're looking for something more sophisticated and Lit is just a haven of slack-jawed fappers. That's not true. You're entitled to your own opinion, as they say, but you're not entitled to your own facts.

I've been slowly moving from figuring out "What's true in general for Literotica stories" to "What's true for the various Liteorica categories". It's true in general that longer stories do better than shorter stories. But I'm not sure that's true for all categories. I wouldn't be surprised if LW does have a "sweet spot" for page length. I'm gathering data and will look into it someday.

I find it frustrating when someone says "X is true about Literotica stories" when they mean "X is true about stories in the Literotica category I read." To my knowledge, pink_silk_glove has never specified what category(s) they are talking about.

One thing I find funny is someone claiming that rating doesn't tell you anything. Literotica ratings are one of the few objective measures you'll find in the writing world. It tells you how much readers of that category enjoyed the story. "Oh, but it wasn't well-written." Lots of readers don't care if a story is well-written. Or more precisely, how much they enjoyed a story is not determined by how well-written it is. Bad-mouthing story ratings comes across as sour grapes to me.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Whatever is true, there will be exceptions.

I've been slowly moving from figuring out "What's true in general for Literotica stories" to "What's true for the various Liteorica categories". It's true in general that longer stories do better than shorter stories. But I'm not sure that's true for all categories. I wouldn't be surprised if LW does have a "sweet spot" for page length. I'm gathering data and will look into it someday.

I find it frustrating when someone says "X is true about Literotica stories" when they mean "X is true about stories in the Literotica category I read." To my knowledge, pink_silk_glove has never specified what category(s) they are talking about.

One thing I find funny is someone claiming that rating doesn't tell you anything. Literotica ratings are one of the few objective measures you'll find in the writing world. It tells you how much readers of that category enjoyed the story. "Oh, but it wasn't well-written." Lots of readers don't care if a story is well-written. Or more precisely, how much they enjoyed a story is not determined by how well-written it is. Bad-mouthing story ratings comes across as sour grapes to me.