For Those Who Might Be Wondering Why We Might Be In Ukraine

[Rightguide]

NATO is not divided on Ukraine.

Political support within each country is waning, as it always does during wars like this. Europe has spent a shit ton of money supporting them and continue to do so.

But in the end, the question is whether Ukraine should be able to defend itself from invaders or whether they should capitulate to the invaders. You have consistently favored the latter because you support Putin.

Your BDS has no bearing on this. Your poster of Putin hanging in your room does.

NATO Divided: Global Perspectives on the Vilnius Summit
Global Memo by PISM, IAI, and SVOP
Jul 14, 2023

https://www.cfr.org/councilofcouncils/global-memos/nato-divided-global-perspectives-vilnius-summit

https://www.hoover.org/sites/default/files/publications/series-logo/2022-06/strategika.png
ARTICLES

The Divide Within NATO​

It has become a truism that the Ukraine War has created a NATO more united and, with the addition of Finland and impending addition of Sweden, more militarily capable than ever.
Thursday, May 18, 2023 2 min readBy: Seth Cropsey

"Through a combination of Ukrainian strategic skill and resolve, Western—primarily American—military aid, and Russian failures, Putin’s gambit has morphed into a war for imperial survival, a war directly against NATO. Yet now, just as in February 2022, the Western European powers show no desire to accelerate or expand military assistance to Ukraine. Nor have the Western European powers, particularly Germany given its vaunted manufacturing capacity, expanded their defense industrial production, despite Olaf Scholz’s much-trumpeted Zeitenwende. Germany still stalls, waffling over whether to permit other countries to transfer German-made Leopard tanks to Ukraine—as of this writing, Germany may shift policy, but only after months of cajoling and concerted NATO-wide pressure. The overwhelming majority of military assistance to Ukraine comes from the United States. And even that has been hesitant, sporadic, and more enthusiastic in word than deed. But even the poorer Eastern European NATO powers, including the Baltics and Poland, have provided proportionally and, in some metrics, absolutely more capabilities to Ukraine than France and Germany.?
Do read the rest of the article here: https://www.hoover.org/research/divide-within-nato

JANUARY 17, 2023

Understanding Germany’s half-hearted support of Ukraine​

KARL-PETER SCHWARZ
Pro-Russian views are popular in former East Germany as a gulf remains between Germans and their eastern neighbors over how to respond to the Kremlin threat.

https://www.gisreportsonline.com/r/germany-russia-ukraine/

Why Germany is struggling to stomach the idea of sending tanks to Ukraine​

Analysis by Luke McGee, CNN
7 minute read
Updated 7:58 AM EST, Sat January 21, 2023

Scholz has insisted that any such plan would need to be fully coordinated with the whole of the Western alliance, and German officials have indicated they won’t approve the transfer of Leopards unless the US also agrees to send some of its tanks to Kyiv.

On Friday, a key meeting of Western allies in Germany broke up without a wider agreement on sending tanks to Ukraine, after the country’s new defense minister Boris Pistorius said no decision had yet been made by his government.

Pistorius rebuffed claims that Germany has been “standing in the way” of a “united coalition” of countries in favor of the plan. “There are good reasons for the delivery and there are good reasons against it … all the pros and cons have to be weighed very carefully, and that assessment is explicitly shared by many allies,” he added.

Germany’s decision to dig in on sending tanks will likely go down badly with its allies, both in the immediate and long-term.

Whole article here: https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/21/europe/germany-tanks-ukraine-intl/index.html

You really need to be better informed on the issue.

 

[ll74]

NATO Divided: Global Perspectives on the Vilnius Summit
Global Memo by PISM, IAI, and SVOP
Jul 14, 2023

https://www.cfr.org/councilofcouncils/global-memos/nato-divided-global-perspectives-vilnius-summit

https://www.hoover.org/sites/default/files/publications/series-logo/2022-06/strategika.png
ARTICLES

The Divide Within NATO​

It has become a truism that the Ukraine War has created a NATO more united and, with the addition of Finland and impending addition of Sweden, more militarily capable than ever.
Thursday, May 18, 2023 2 min readBy: Seth Cropsey

"Through a combination of Ukrainian strategic skill and resolve, Western—primarily American—military aid, and Russian failures, Putin’s gambit has morphed into a war for imperial survival, a war directly against NATO. Yet now, just as in February 2022, the Western European powers show no desire to accelerate or expand military assistance to Ukraine. Nor have the Western European powers, particularly Germany given its vaunted manufacturing capacity, expanded their defense industrial production, despite Olaf Scholz’s much-trumpeted Zeitenwende. Germany still stalls, waffling over whether to permit other countries to transfer German-made Leopard tanks to Ukraine—as of this writing, Germany may shift policy, but only after months of cajoling and concerted NATO-wide pressure. The overwhelming majority of military assistance to Ukraine comes from the United States. And even that has been hesitant, sporadic, and more enthusiastic in word than deed. But even the poorer Eastern European NATO powers, including the Baltics and Poland, have provided proportionally and, in some metrics, absolutely more capabilities to Ukraine than France and Germany.?
Do read the rest of the article here: https://www.hoover.org/research/divide-within-nato

JANUARY 17, 2023

Understanding Germany’s half-hearted support of Ukraine​

KARL-PETER SCHWARZ
Pro-Russian views are popular in former East Germany as a gulf remains between Germans and their eastern neighbors over how to respond to the Kremlin threat.

https://www.gisreportsonline.com/r/germany-russia-ukraine/

Why Germany is struggling to stomach the idea of sending tanks to Ukraine​

Analysis by Luke McGee, CNN
7 minute read
Updated 7:58 AM EST, Sat January 21, 2023

Scholz has insisted that any such plan would need to be fully coordinated with the whole of the Western alliance, and German officials have indicated they won’t approve the transfer of Leopards unless the US also agrees to send some of its tanks to Kyiv.

On Friday, a key meeting of Western allies in Germany broke up without a wider agreement on sending tanks to Ukraine, after the country’s new defense minister Boris Pistorius said no decision had yet been made by his government.

Pistorius rebuffed claims that Germany has been “standing in the way” of a “united coalition” of countries in favor of the plan. “There are good reasons for the delivery and there are good reasons against it … all the pros and cons have to be weighed very carefully, and that assessment is explicitly shared by many allies,” he added.

Germany’s decision to dig in on sending tanks will likely go down badly with its allies, both in the immediate and long-term.

Whole article here: https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/21/europe/germany-tanks-ukraine-intl/index.html

You really need to be better informed on the issue.

Of course when you focus on amount rather than allocations per GDP, you would be an idiot

https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/

Europe is locked into their support (even Germany)

Your biased articles are biased and full of shit.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

It has become a truism that the Ukraine War has created a NATO more united and, with the addition of Finland and impending addition of Sweden, more militarily capable than ever.
Thursday, May 18, 2023 2 min readBy: Seth Cropsey

https://www.hoover.org/profiles/seth-cropsey

"

JANUARY 17, 2023

Understanding Germany’s half-hearted support of Ukraine​

KARL-PETER SCHWARZ
Pro-Russian views are popular in former East Germany as a gulf remains between Germans and their eastern neighbors over how to respond to the Kremlin threat.

https://www.gisreportsonline.com/r/germany-russia-ukraine/

Why Germany is struggling to stomach the idea of sending tanks to Ukraine​

Analysis by Luke McGee, CNN
7 minute read
Updated 7:58 AM EST, Sat January 21, 2023



You really need to be better informed on the issue.

LMFAO, your link proves everything II74 said. How fucking stupid are you really??? OMFG

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Of course when you focus on amount rather than allocations per GDP, you would be an idiot

https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/

Europe is locked into their support (even Germany)

Your biased articles are biased and full of shit.

Not only that, they are also out of date, and even state NATO is not divided, but actually more cohesive since the Russian invasion....

 

[jomar]

…

Your biased articles are biased and full of shit.

Not only that, they are also out of date, and even state NATO is not divided, but actually more cohesive since the Russian invasion....

It’s like deja vu all over again

 

[Fuzzy1975]

It’s like deja vu all over again

it's always the same old tap dance with wrongway.

 

[Rightguide]

Of course when you focus on amount rather than allocations per GDP, you would be an idiot

https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/

Europe is locked into their support (even Germany)

Your biased articles are biased and full of shit.

Go ahead nd live in ignorance. Let me know when Ukraine prevails.

 

[ll74]

Go ahead nd live in ignorance. Let me know when Ukraine prevails.

Ukraine has a right to defend itself against the invaders. They should not capitulate to the aggressors.

 

[Rightguide]

Ukraine has a right to defend itself against the invaders. They should not capitulate to the aggressors.

I never said they didn't have a right to defend themselves, ever. I have said or implied that at this point they have no choice but to negotiate or be defeated. In my opinion, they are now past that point where they might have negotiated an agreement that leaves them with a semblance of national dignity. I know you don't agree, but at this point, Russia will dictate the terms of a ceasefire to Ukraine. This is Joe Biden's fault, make no mistake.

 

[ll74]

I never said they didn't have a right to defend themselves, ever. I have said or implied that at this point they have no choice but to negotiate or be defeated. In my opinion, they are now past that point where they might have negotiated an agreement that leaves them with a semblance of national dignity. I know you don't agree, but at this point, Russia will dictate the terms of a ceasefire to Ukraine. This is Joe Biden's fault, make no mistake.

You want them to surrender.

And your BDS continues to shine

 

[Rightguide]

You want them to surrender.

And your BDS continues to shine

When did I say I wanted them to surrender? I've only stated the military facts on the ground in Ukraine. They have been strategically defeated on the field. Hundreds of thousands have been killed and wounded. It's all over but the shouting. The weapons we're providing are not going to affect the outcome. Only the politicians and political soldiers who are trying to save their own asses and reputations are saying any different. The Ukrainians will never recover from the disaster that has been inflicted on their population in their lifetimes. Almost 20 million have left the country never to return because there is nothing left to return to.

 

[ll74]

When did I say I wanted them to surrender? I've only stated the military facts on the ground in Ukraine. They have been strategically defeated on the field. Hundreds of thousands have been killed and wounded. It's all over but the shouting. The weapons we're providing are not going to affect the outcome. Only the politicians and political soldiers who are trying to save their own asses and reputations are saying any different. The Ukrainians will never recover from the disaster that has been inflicted on their population in their lifetimes. Almost 20 million have left the country never to return because there is nothing left to return to.

Your said a ceasefire would be made on Russia's terms. Russia invaded Ukraine. Surrender is the correct term for that.

 

[Rightguide]

Your said a ceasefire would be made on Russia's terms. Russia invaded Ukraine. Surrender is the correct term for that.

Yes, that is not the same as a surrender. Because the Ukrainians were coaxed into not negotiating earlier in the war now that they have been decimated beyond repair, their negotiating position is much weaker and the Russians know it and could likely achieve a ceasefire on their terms. That is all I meant by what I said. The Ukrainians can fight to the last man if they choose, but in the end, they won't. They will negotiate.

 

[ll74]

Yes, that is not the same as a surrender. Because the Ukrainians were coaxed into not negotiating earlier in the war now that they have been decimated beyond repair, their negotiating position is much weaker and the Russians know it and could likely achieve a ceasefire on their terms. That is all I meant by what I said. The Ukrainians can fight to the last man if they choose, but in the end, they won't. They will negotiate.

It is the same thing as surrender. If Ukraine capitulates, that is surrendering

 

[Rightguide]

Poll: Support for War in Ukraine Falls Further​

JAZZ SHAW 3:31 PM on November 02, 2023

The world’s eyes are glued on Israel and Gaza at the moment, but it’s worth remembering that we still have that “other” (proxy) war going on in Ukraine and it is quickly becoming a hot topic for next year’s elections. The latest numbers from Gallup have been released, and there isn’t much good news for Joe Biden and the Democrats here, nor for the “Biden Republicans” in the Senate who are sticking with Joe’s “for as long as it takes” rhetoric. The trends we saw developing over the spring and summer have continued and the shifts were not exactly subtle. Gallup dove into all of the major questions regarding the conflict, starting with the overall issue of whether the United States is “doing too much” to help Ukraine, doing “too little, or doing “the right amount.” In August of 2022, just 29% said we were doing too much. Today that number stands at 41%. Only one in four voters believe we need to be doing even more.

As the harsh winter months approach in Ukraine, Americans’ views on the war there have shifted, with a plurality now saying the U.S. is doing too much to help Ukraine. Forty-one percent of Americans overall say the U.S. is doing too much, which has risen from 24% in August 2022 and 29% in June 2023. Thirty-three percent, down from 43% in June, say the U.S. is doing the right amount, while 25% believe the U.S. isn’t doing enough.

Both Republicans (62%) and independents (44%) increasingly see the U.S. as doing too much to support Ukraine compared with when Gallup began asking this question in August 2022.

It’s primarily Republicans who are saying that America is doing too much, but the independents are catching up quickly. More Democrats remain stubbornly in the “do more” camp, but even those figures are beginning to shrink.

More here: https://hotair.com/jazz-shaw/2023/11/02/poll-support-for-war-in-ukraine-falls-further-n589500

 

[Lazaran]

Poll: Support for War in Ukraine Falls Further​

JAZZ SHAW 3:31 PM on November 02, 2023

The world’s eyes are glued on Israel and Gaza at the moment, but it’s worth remembering that we still have that “other” (proxy) war going on in Ukraine and it is quickly becoming a hot topic for next year’s elections. The latest numbers from Gallup have been released, and there isn’t much good news for Joe Biden and the Democrats here, nor for the “Biden Republicans” in the Senate who are sticking with Joe’s “for as long as it takes” rhetoric. The trends we saw developing over the spring and summer have continued and the shifts were not exactly subtle. Gallup dove into all of the major questions regarding the conflict, starting with the overall issue of whether the United States is “doing too much” to help Ukraine, doing “too little, or doing “the right amount.” In August of 2022, just 29% said we were doing too much. Today that number stands at 41%. Only one in four voters believe we need to be doing even more.





It’s primarily Republicans who are saying that America is doing too much, but the independents are catching up quickly. More Democrats remain stubbornly in the “do more” camp, but even those figures are beginning to shrink.

More here: https://hotair.com/jazz-shaw/2023/11/02/poll-support-for-war-in-ukraine-falls-further-n589500

Putin and Russia are aided and comforted by your posts and those of other traitors.

*nods*

 

[ll74]

Poll: Support for War in Ukraine Falls Further​

JAZZ SHAW 3:31 PM on November 02, 2023

The world’s eyes are glued on Israel and Gaza at the moment, but it’s worth remembering that we still have that “other” (proxy) war going on in Ukraine and it is quickly becoming a hot topic for next year’s elections. The latest numbers from Gallup have been released, and there isn’t much good news for Joe Biden and the Democrats here, nor for the “Biden Republicans” in the Senate who are sticking with Joe’s “for as long as it takes” rhetoric. The trends we saw developing over the spring and summer have continued and the shifts were not exactly subtle. Gallup dove into all of the major questions regarding the conflict, starting with the overall issue of whether the United States is “doing too much” to help Ukraine, doing “too little, or doing “the right amount.” In August of 2022, just 29% said we were doing too much. Today that number stands at 41%. Only one in four voters believe we need to be doing even more.





It’s primarily Republicans who are saying that America is doing too much, but the independents are catching up quickly. More Democrats remain stubbornly in the “do more” camp, but even those figures are beginning to shrink.

More here: https://hotair.com/jazz-shaw/2023/11/02/poll-support-for-war-in-ukraine-falls-further-n589500

I'm supportive still.

Putin continues to appreciate your support

 

[Rightguide]

I'm supportive still.

Putin continues to appreciate your support

I'm supportive still.

Putin continues to appreciate your support

Putin doesn't have my support. I don't support funding corruption and wholesale slaughter as you do. We haven't done a thing except help slaughter hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians, and lay waste in their country, in an impossible quest that leaves the eastern Russian-speaking part of Ukraine in the hands of a Russian force that is bigger in size and lethality and more of a threat to Europe than we've seen in 40 years. Good job.

 

[ll74]

Putin doesn't have my support.

Sure he doesn't.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Putin doesn't have my support. I don't support funding corruption and wholesale slaughter as you do. We haven't done a thing except help slaughter hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians, and lay waste in their country, in an impossible quest that leaves the eastern Russian-speaking part of Ukraine in the hands of a Russian force that is bigger in size and lethality and more of a threat to Europe than we've seen in 40 years. Good job.

They've been fighting for close to two full years at this point. We didn't help slaughter, we helped people defend themselves. We did the only moral thing we could.

 

[Rightguide]

They've been fighting for close to two full years at this point. We didn't help slaughter, we helped people defend themselves. We did the only moral thing we could.

That BS. There could have been a negotiated cease-fire in April or May of last year if Boris Johnson, carrying Biden's message, hadn't gone to Kyiv to convince Zelensky not to negotiate, but to keep on fighting because the West would assure his victory. We've seen how that impossible dream has gone.

 

[Sean Renaud]

That BS. There could have been a negotiated cease-fire in April or May of last year if Boris Johnson, carrying Biden's message, hadn't gone to Kyiv to convince Zelensky not to negotiate, but to keep on fighting because the West would assure his victory. We've seen how that impossible dream has gone.

Even if a cease fire could have been negotiated and I don't believe it could have Russia would demand to keep the land they conquered as part of the deal. And then a few years we'd be right back here again.

 

[Sean Renaud]

There is no moral justification for what we have done in Ukraine.

American will continue to make mistakes that cost a lot of blood, mostly other people’s blood, until we grow up and realize we’re not always the “good guys” no matter how much we might want to be.

Your political leaders know that’s what you want to feel and they dupe you over and over with the same bullshit about “defending freedom.”

The wars we fight have nothing to do with freedom. They are about profit and power. See war is a very profitable business for some very generous political donors who have a lot of power in Washington.

So while you thought we were “helping people defend their freedom,” what we were really doing was making our weapons industry a LOT of money.

The people who paid the price were hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians who died so Americans could have jobs building weapons, companies could make billions, and politicians could get donations and bribes.

And they died for nothing because America instigated the whole thing. We helped overthrow the elected pro-Russian government, helped install a pro-Western one, and insisted Ukraine was going to join NATO.

Putin said he would not allow that encroachment by NATO and would go to war to stop it. America decided on a strategy of letting Putin go to war in Ukraine, and prolonging that war as much as possible, in the hope Putin would become unpopular and there would be “regime change” in Russia.

So here we are. It’s time to grow up and realize that America is ruled by incompetent, kleptocrat, sociopaths. Doesn’t matter who you vote for or which party wins. That’s still what you get. We live in a world where truth is difficult to find, and when you do find it, it's a good bet you won't like it. The one thing you can count on is that whatever our elites tell you... isn't it.

We’re not always the good guys, and when we are it’s probably an accident.

Most of what you are saying isn't false strictly speaking. I still believe the only moral thing we could do was support our allies. We have to at least try to live up to our word. I think that is one of the worst things of the Trump era was how he proved that America's word is good for 4-8 years at best. In practice presidents haven't just pulled out of deals though. Our word meant something.

I don't honestly give a shit that the military industrial complex is making money. That's fine by me.

That having been said I think its been hit and miss mostly miss as to if we were the good guys. I think we did the right thing in the Gulf War. Save Kuwait, go home. We were the bad guys in Vietnam and Korea. We can debate Afghanistan but we were partially justified. Iraq was a debacle. That's not even counting how many nations we've overthrown and it rarely works out as planned. I mean at least after all the shit we've done to Cuba and more recently Venezuela our supposedly liberal media does a damn good job of keeping us convinced that socialism/communism/Marxism cannot succeed not that the US will sanction you into the ground and fund "freedom fighters" to over throw you. Given how well Cuba is doing over all just imagine if they could export cigars and Americans could vacation there. Venezuela has a lot of oil but rather than trade with them we like taking pictures of empty shelves and convincing Americans that free health care will lead to this.

Regardless I would arm Ukraine again, I would cut Israel's funding if they don't accept a ceasefire. Or at least start negotiating one.

 

[ll74]

There is no moral justification for what we have done in Ukraine.

American will continue to make mistakes that cost a lot of blood, mostly other people’s blood, until we grow up and realize we’re not always the “good guys” no matter how much we might want to be.

Your political leaders know that’s what you want to feel and they dupe you over and over with the same bullshit about “defending freedom.”

The wars we fight have nothing to do with freedom. They are about profit and power. See war is a very profitable business for some very generous political donors who have a lot of power in Washington.

So while you thought we were “helping people defend their freedom,” what we were really doing was making our weapons industry a LOT of money.

The people who paid the price were hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians who died so Americans could have jobs building weapons, companies could make billions, and politicians could get donations and bribes.

And they died for nothing because America instigated the whole thing. We helped overthrow the elected pro-Russian government, helped install a pro-Western one, and insisted Ukraine was going to join NATO.

Putin said he would not allow that encroachment by NATO and would go to war to stop it. America decided on a strategy of letting Putin go to war in Ukraine, and prolonging that war as much as possible, in the hope Putin would become unpopular and there would be “regime change” in Russia.

So here we are. It’s time to grow up and realize that America is ruled by incompetent, kleptocrat, sociopaths. Doesn’t matter who you vote for or which party wins. That’s still what you get. We live in a world where truth is difficult to find, and when you do find it, it's a good bet you won't like it. The one thing you can count on is that whatever our elites tell you... isn't it.

We’re not always the good guys, and when we are it’s probably an accident.

So Putin was justified and Ukraine should capitulate. Is that what you're saying?

 

[ll74]

You I hold to a much lower standard. You’d have to be twice as intelligent and twice as honest as you are… just to be stupid and dishonest.

So it is what you're saying. Thanks for confirming.