Israel/Hamas PB Tribal Fight

[ll74]

Looking at the geography of Gaza, there is a relatively small border between Gaza and Egypt, a large border between Gaza and Israel, and the remainder of Gaza borders the Mediterranean sea. In theory, Gaza should be able to use the Mediterranean sea as a means of import and export, but the Israelis have imposed a unilateral sea blockade of Gaza.

Naval blockades are considered a prime example of an "Act of War", yet Israel has maintained this blockade for almost two decades, in the name of "national security". Why? Because the voters of Gaza voted to install politicians from the Hamas party around 2006 or so.

So the net effect is Israel is slowly and steadily strangling the populace of Gaza to death by severe limitations on food imports, energy imports and building material imports. Meanwhile, the population of Gaza has increased from 1.1 million in 2010 to 2 million in 2020.

You could argue that Israel is offering Gaza a hellish choice: slow death from starvation or a quicker death from military forces.

Hamas has limited ways to respond. To gain foreign sympathies, they deliberately use civilian homes as military bunkers. Israel realizes that the world will only accept a certain amount of collateral damage (i.e. civilian casualties) so Israeli military options are limited from a public relations standpoint. One suspects that the IDF uses things like the stupid Hama rocket attack as an excuse to launch a disproportionate retaliatory response.

The bottom line is that the Middle East is a basically a shithole, and there are no real positive options left anymore.

The last net positive to come out of the Middle East was the Camp David Accords of 1979, when President Jimmy Carter brokered a truce between Egypt and Israel by agreeing to pay billions of American dollars to Egypt each year with the understanding that Egypt will cease all government initiativess against Israel. It worked far beyond American expectations: Egyptian politicians and military leaders love Murican Moolah more than they hate the Israeli state.

Feel free to take issue with my hot take, guys. I'm just stating my two cents worth and I got a pocket full of change.

Hamas has not allowed further elections. If they did, the Palestinians could elect different leaders and the blockade may be lifted.

No issue with your take. The problem overall is a religion that rules the land where they want Israel dead....and no leaders willing to abandon a theocracy

 

[TrailerHitch]

It really makes me mad that Hamas has been running that place. I would hope they would elect different leaders if offered the chance

When opposition is met with beheadings opposition tends to dry up quickly I would guess.

 

[IrezumiKiss]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1712914174437646439

https://twitter.com/x/status/1712913140772417941

https://twitter.com/x/status/1712905722877366655

 

[RobDownSouth]

Hamas has not allowed further elections. If they did, the Palestinians could elect different leaders and the blockade may be lifted.

No issue with your take. The problem overall is a religion that rules the land where they want Israel dead....and no leaders willing to abandon a theocracy

You are entirely correct, I should have pointed out that Hamas has declined to hold elections since defeating Fatah in 2006. Everything is still an "interim" government.

This makes life all the more difficult for Gaza residents.

And theocracy is the icing on the proverbial cake.

 

[TrailerHitch]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1712914174437646439

https://twitter.com/x/status/1712913140772417941

https://twitter.com/x/status/1712905722877366655

The Israeli's gave advanced warning and provided an escape corridor. Those that stayed knew the price they might pay.

 

[SimonDoom]

You could argue that Israel is offering Gaza a hellish choice: slow death from starvation or a quicker death from military forces.

There's another choice: reject Hamas, once and for all. It is a death cult. It has never done anything good for the people of Gaza. Its purpose is to destroy Israel. Get rid of Hamas and end the pointless war against Israel, and all of this would go away. They already have their land. This is nuts, but it is the result of maintaining war against Israel.

 

[RobDownSouth]

There's another choice: reject Hamas, once and for all. It is a death cult. It has never done anything good for the people of Gaza. Its purpose is to destroy Israel. Get rid of Hamas and end the pointless war against Israel, and all of this would go away. They already have their land. This is nuts, but it is the result of maintaining war against Israel.

That is certainly one solution, but that would involve Gazan residents taking up arms against one's own government. The cost would be substantial.

 

[ChloeTzang]

If my memory serves me correctly our brave U.S. soldiers went to buildings in Fallujah that were a few stories high ....... unlike these tall buildings in Gaza which housed millions. Going to each building, floor and room will take it's toll. Will it be a toll that Israel will accept or will they decide to pull out and just nuke said buildings???

They won't nuke anything. They can expect a lot of resistance inside buildings though. Not to mention booby traps and bombs. Pack the foundations with explosives, wait for a team to go in, and it does take a lot of soldiers to clear a high rise. Ka-boom. Building goes up, squad gets turned into strawberry jam. Makes more sense to take out the buildings one by one with bombs and napalm the rubble to flame any survivors. Then bulldoze what's left out of the way and deal with the next one.

Rather different to Russia's city-clearing techniques but the end result will be the same. A pile of rubble. The kicker is going to be the tunnels. That and Hamas squads infiltrating through the rubble.

This is going to be very educational for us spectators.

 

[SimonDoom]

That is certainly one solution, but that would involve Gazan residents taking up arms against one's own government. The cost would be substantial.

It would, but it would be far LESS substantial than what will come if they don't. Hamas is leading Gaza down the road of utter ruin and death.

 

[ChloeTzang]

To destroy a building once cleared doesn’t make sense. Eliminate the threat, capture intel, destroy weapon systems and clear tunnels. Needless infrastructure destruction only creates a refugee crisis. I would think take the building and hold it. Not all palestIndians hate Jews. IMHO

The Israeli's did say there would be nothing left but rubble and Gaza would be tent city. Wouldn't clear buildings if I was them. Suicide mission. Hamas would blow and entire high rise, complete with civilians, to take out an Israeli soldier. Best to just take out every single building as you move forward in a storm of steel.

 

[One_ping_only]

They won't nuke anything. They can expect a lot of resistance inside buildings though. Not to mention booby traps and bombs. Pack the foundations with explosives, wait for a team to go in, and it does take a lot of soldiers to clear a high rise. Ka-boom. Building goes up, squad gets turned into strawberry jam. Makes more sense to take out the buildings one by one with bombs and napalm the rubble to flame any survivors. Then bulldoze what's left out of the way and deal with the next one.

Rather different to Russia's city-clearing techniques but the end result will be the same. A pile of rubble. The kicker is going to be the tunnels. That and Hamas squads infiltrating through the rubble.

This is going to be very educational for us spectators.

I forgot where I had seen the idea of just using the Mediterranean Sea water to flood said tunnels?? Only Hammas would be using those tunnels and getting rid of the personal and making those tunnels useless is like killing two birds with one stone.

Not using a nuke would probably be best since the other neighboring nations will not at all be happy with that?!?!

 

[TrailerHitch]

There's another choice: reject Hamas, once and for all. It is a death cult. It has never done anything good for the people of Gaza. Its purpose is to destroy Israel. Get rid of Hamas and end the pointless war against Israel, and all of this would go away. They already have their land. This is nuts, but it is the result of maintaining war against Israel.

Another excellent and inciteful post on this topic.

 

[ll74]

You are entirely correct, I should have pointed out that Hamas has declined to hold elections since defeating Fatah in 2006. Everything is still an "interim" government.

This makes life all the more difficult for Gaza residents.

And theocracy is the icing on the proverbial cake.

Religion pisses me off

 

[ll74]

There's another choice: reject Hamas, once and for all. It is a death cult. It has never done anything good for the people of Gaza. Its purpose is to destroy Israel. Get rid of Hamas and end the pointless war against Israel, and all of this would go away. They already have their land. This is nuts, but it is the result of maintaining war against Israel.

Reject all former leadership and form a new government based on peace.

The thought certainly would fry right wingers' brains.

 

[IrezumiKiss]

The Israeli's gave advanced warning and provided an escape corridor. Those that stayed knew the price they might pay.

Looks like some who heeded the advance warning and chose to escape paid a price, too.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1712944033905922275

 

[ChloeTzang]

Looks like some who heeded the advance warning and chose to escape paid a price, too.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1712944033905922275

Shit happens in a war. Russians did this all the time to Ukrainians. Nobody except Ukrainians got upset about it.

Palestinians just gotta accept that they started a war and they're fucked six ways to Sunday. That's what happens. Israel at least is trying to avoid civilian casualties. That's not saying there will be none at all.

Personally, I think Gazan's are lucky the Israeli's abide by the rules of war, such as they are. Me, I'd carpet bomb Gaza into the Neolithic, napalm the rubble, bulldoze whatever was left into the Med and put in some nice shopping malls and Walmarts. Maybe save a few skulls for a Mongol-style memorial.

 

[ChloeTzang]

Reject all former leadership and form a new government based on peace.

The thought certainly would fry right wingers' brains.

Be nice to think it would work. It did for Germany and Japan after WW2, but it involved some serious devastation first. Once Israel flattens Gaza and kills off Hamas, just maybe they won't want a rinse and repeat and they might go for it. That'd be an optimal outcome at this point

 

[ll74]

Be nice to think it would work. It did for Germany and Japan after WW2, but it involved some serious devastation first. Once Israel flattens Gaza and kills off Hamas, just maybe they won't want a rinse and repeat and they might go for it. That'd be an optimal outcome at this point

It would work with dedicated people leading it.

 

[Chobham]

Reject all former leadership and form a new government based on peace.

The thought certainly would fry right wingers' brains.

Why would you say something so incredibly silly? The people that want to see Hamas and their likes eliminated from the face of the Earth are all across the political spectrum, and I would hazard that more than a few Muslims are in that group.

You don't need to hold to any particular political philosophy to recognize pure, unadulterated, evil when you see it.

 

[ll74]

Why would you say something so incredibly silly? The people that want to see Hamas and their likes eliminated from the face of the Earth are all across the political spectrum, and I would hazard that more than a few Muslims are in that group.

You don't need to hold to any particular political philosophy to recognize pure, unadulterated, evil when you see it.

Sorry for acknowledging that right wingers typically are bigoted towards.Mulsims.

 

[ChloeTzang]

Sorry for acknowledging that right wingers typically are bigoted towards.Mulsims.

Well, it's not bigoted to acknowledge that in general they're not very nice people and their views on many things are antithetic to ours.

And I say that having lived in Riyadh for 2 months when my dad was working there. I met some really nice Saudi's, but we were there as guests, and in their country, on their terms, and as a guest, its way different from the muslims we have living amongst us. They really do not give a shit what you think about them. If you sympathize or are a useful liberal, they will use you until they don't need you. They will not acquire your values and mindset and they will not assimilate or co-exist.

 

[ChloeTzang]

The current Israeli mood could best be analogized for Americans to that in the US post-9/11. Many think they're up against Holocaust 2.0, they're in the process of fighting it out with terrorists while they bury their dead. Calls for restraint and protestations about the finer points of international law are going to fall on deaf ears.Agree with it or not, that's where they are and we should prepare ourselves for the implications of that mindset as the IDF gears up to invade Gaza. Think of 911 or Pearl Harbor, but on a much much larger scale.

The equivalent for us would be 50k dead, raped, tortured and burned alive Americans in one morning and the bad guys came from New Jersey. Guess how we'd react to that.

 

[ChloeTzang]

And here's why you get civilian casualties in Gaza.

Israeli drone footage of a Hamas rocket launch from a residential area north of Rimal. According to the Hamas apologists, this isn’t happening. Hamas doesn’t place or launch their weapons in residential areas. It’s all a fabrication allegedly.

Israeli Air Force strike aircraft hit the launch location.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1712876973670760505

 

[ll74]

Well, it's not bigoted to acknowledge that in general they're not very nice people and their views on many things are antithetic to ours.

Generalizing doesn't actually make it less bigoted.

And I say that having lived in Riyadh for 2 months when my dad was working there. I met some really nice Saudi's, but we were there as guests, and in their country, on their terms, and as a guest, its way different from the muslims we have living amongst us. They really do not give a shit what you think about them. If you sympathize or are a useful liberal, they will use you until they don't need you. They will not acquire your values and mindset and they will not assimilate or co-exist.

I don't give a fuck what personal story you have to tell.

You're.literally being bigoted towards and entire group of people and rationalizing it with some story.

"They" is what you have decided of people who you haven't met.

But at least you fit the.mold

 

[SimonDoom]

Well, it's not bigoted to acknowledge that in general they're not very nice people and their views on many things are antithetic to ours.

And I say that having lived in Riyadh for 2 months when my dad was working there. I met some really nice Saudi's, but we were there as guests, and in their country, on their terms, and as a guest, its way different from the muslims we have living amongst us. They really do not give a shit what you think about them. If you sympathize or are a useful liberal, they will use you until they don't need you. They will not acquire your values and mindset and they will not assimilate or co-exist.

Chloe, this simply isn't true. I am not religious and have no patience with religious fundamentalism and intolerance of any kind, but I know Muslims in the US and they are nothing like the way you describe them. They are educated and professionals and as American as anyone else. You cannot paint an entire group of people with such a broad brush. The Muslims I personally know are every bit as "nice" as anyone else I know.