Cheating and Perception

[lc69hunter]

I just submitted a story for publication in the Reviews and Essays section.

It is a short discussion about how men's and women's brains are wired differently, and how that affects the cheating, and also the discussion and fallout when that cheating is discovered. It has to do the fact that women process things differently than men, in general.

Women's brains tend to categorize and compartmentalize things differently than men, who tend to be more binary in their thinking.

I will let you know when it is published

 

[EmilyMiller]

Is my brain really wired differently? Or have we just been conditioned from infancy to behave a certain way?

Em

PS My brain probably is wired differently, TBH, but that has nothing to do with lacking a Y chromosome

 

[lc69hunter]

Is my brain really wired differently? Or have we just been conditioned from infancy to behave a certain way?

Em

PS My brain probably is wired differently, TBH, but that has nothing to do with lacking a Y chromosome

You may have a point. Nature vs nurture? Boys and girls are brought up differently and taught to act and think in different ways. And I think, to the detriment of both.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

You may have a point. Nature vs nurture? Boys and girls are brought up differently and taught to act and think in different ways. And I think, to the detriment of both.

Wait... You publish a "discussion about how men's and women's brains are wired differently", and didn't think of that?
No offense, mate, but that's... bold.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Wait... You publish a "discussion about how men's and women's brains are wired differently", and didn't think of that?
No offense, mate, but that's... bold.

I look forward to a detailed analysis of the relative mean sizes of parts of the amygdala and cingulate gyrus between the sexes.

And evidence to support the assertions in the OP.

I may be disappointed.

 

[lc69hunter]

I look forward to a detailed analysis of the relative mean sizes of parts of the amygdala and cingulate gyrus between the sexes.

And evidence to support the assertions in the OP.

I may be disappointed.

Don't hold your breath

 

[MelissaBaby]

Is my brain really wired differently? Or have we just been conditioned from infancy to behave a certain way?

Em

PS My brain probably is wired differently, TBH, but that has nothing to do with lacking a Y chromosome

I think it's not about wiring, so much as it's about chemistry.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I don't know if it's about wiring, chemistry, upbringing, diet or hair length, but there is definitely a difference in how men and women think in general.
It makes both sexes go insane with frustration sometimes (read often), but I wouldn't change it for the world.

 

[NotWise]

I don't think men and women think differently at all.

 

[XerXesXu]

I don't think men and women think differently at all.

Agreed.
Yesterday I noticed my son starting to flaff. I looked out the window and his new girl was waiting outside the gate - the best yet – a dark-eyed beauty with her long, glossy hair done up. She sat gritting her teeth, glaring at him and impatiently revving her bike as he flaffed. I think he sees me in her.

 

[TheRedChamber]

Agreed.
Yesterday I noticed my son starting to flaff. I looked out the window and his new girl was waiting outside the gate - the best yet – a dark-eyed beauty with her long, glossy hair done up. She sat gritting her teeth, glaring at him and impatiently revving her bike as he flaffed. I think he sees me in her.

I could look up the word 'flaff' in a dictionary. I choose not to. I'll stick with the mental image I have right now, thank you.

 

[SeraphNocturne]

I really don't believe cheating has anything to do with gender specific traits at all, and everything to do with human beings not being genetically monogamous animals--or even socially monogamous animals, in most cases. It appears individual ineptitudes regarding willpower and self-restraint typically play a massive role in the circumstances regarding cheating, regardless of gender or emotional based excuses that either gender offer... the 'wired differently' point of view in my opinion is fluffy nonsense designed to make one or the other gender's offense seem more severe, when in actuality, they're exactly the same at the base level.

It has always seemed a personality flaw to me, not a gender based one. Most people, male or female, do it for entirely selfish or self-centered reasons and those same people typically feel regret or remorse--the ones who aren't total narcissists/sociopaths, at least.

Curious topic of discussion, in any case, and best of luck with your publication...

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I really don't believe cheating has anything to do with gender specific traits at all, and everything to do with human beings not being genetically monogamous animals--or even socially monogamous animals, in most cases. It appears individual ineptitudes regarding willpower and self-restraint typically a massive role in the circumstances regarding cheating, regardless of gender or emotional based excuses that either gender offer... the 'wired differently' point of view in my opinion is fluffy nonsense designed to make one or the other gender's offense seem more severe, when in actuality, they're exactly the same at the base level.

It has always seemed a personality flaw to me, not a gender based one. Most people, male or female, do it for entirely selfish or self-centered reasons and those same people typically feel regret or remorse--the ones who aren't total narcissists/sociopaths, at least.

Curious topic of discussion, in any case, and best of luck with your publication...

While I do think that there are differences in the way men and women think in general (based on my own experience only), I absolutely agree with what you said. Cheating is the same for both genders. One can often hear old folk saying, older women especially for some reason, how "boys will be boys", but that is just complete patriarchal bullshit. Even if someone was to scientifically prove that men had a "cheating gene" or something like that, it would still be the same. Having an urge doesn't mean you need to act on it.

 

[SeraphNocturne]

While I do think that there are differences in the way men and women think in general (based on my own experience only), I absolutely agree with what you said. Cheating is the same for both genders. One can often hear old folk saying, older women especially for some reason, how "boys will be boys", but that is just complete patriarchal bullshit. Even if someone was to scientifically prove that men had a "cheating gene" or something like that, it would still be the same. Having an urge doesn't mean you need to act on it.

Agreed! I don't doubt for a second we have very different patterns of thought and behavior. The female brain develops differently than the male brain, that is scientifically proven.

The basic consensus, in my experience, is that men are regarded as 'physical beings' and their libidinous nature is to attribute for their lack of control, while women are regarded as 'emotional beings' and our sensitive and receptive nature is what might push us to infidelity (due to neglect, or receiving outside attention). It's been argued to me that the male offense is less severe because the offense was done with purely physical intentions in mind, while women were assumed to have acted due to emotional intention (they felt neglected, or desired, etcetera) which by comparison is far worse, especially in a monogamous relationship or marriage. Plainly put, I believe that's horse shit.

I don't feel any of that should be acknowledged when it comes to cheating, because at the end of the day, we're not slaves to programming like most animals on our planet. We are intelligent; capable of exercising great restraint, morality and willpower if we so choose. Our intelligence and free will are what set us apart from the rest of the animals--many of which mate for life, or for superior reproductive impulse. We are one of the few who copulate purely for pleasure.

For me, the bottom line will always be that most cheaters are just selfish. The "gender based programming" people like to argue as reasonable excuses for cheating will always be irrelevant to me when presented with fact that they had a choice of making a right or wrong decision.

 

[djrip]

Agreed! I don't doubt for a second we have very different patterns of thought and behavior. The female brain develops differently than the male brain, that is scientifically proven.

The basic consensus, in my experience, is that men are regarded as 'physical beings' and their libidinous nature is to attribute for their lack of control, while women are regarded as 'emotional beings' and our sensitive and receptive nature is what might push us to infidelity (due to neglect, or receiving outside attention). It's been argued to me that the male offense is less severe because the offense was done with purely physical intentions in mind, while women were assumed to have acted due to emotional intention (they felt neglected, or desired, etcetera) which by comparison is far worse, especially in a monogamous relationship or marriage. Plainly put, I believe that's horse shit.

I don't feel any of that should be acknowledged when it comes to cheating, because at the end of the day, we're not slaves to programming like most animals on our planet. We are intelligent; capable of exercising great restraint, morality and willpower if we so choose. Our intelligence and free will are what set us apart from the rest of the animals--many of which mate for life, or for superior reproductive impulse. We are one of the few who copulate purely for pleasure.

For me, the bottom line will always be that most cheaters are just selfish. The "gender based programming" people like to argue as reasonable excuses for cheating will always be irrelevant to me when presented with fact that they had a choice of making a right or wrong decision.

I agree both or all genders face temptation to cheat and it's morally the same no matter what gender does it. But I thought the essay was going to be about reaction to a partner cheating, and possible differences by gender. Not sure the text (of lc's post above) bears that out now that I look again, though.

 

[SeraphNocturne]

I agree both or all genders face temptation to cheat and it's morally the same no matter what gender does it. But I thought the essay was going to be about reaction to a partner cheating, and possible differences by gender. Not sure the text bears that out now that I look again, though.

If I read the topic of the review/essay correctly, it's covering both grounds--male and female patterns of thoughts influencing cheating, and how male and female patterns of thought affect reaction to and discussions of infidelity in the aftermath, after cheating has been discovered.

I am curious to read it and hear OPs thoughts on the matter. But I'm certainly entering in on biased opinion, because I really do not believe male or female thought patterns should be held to any real sustenance when regarding 'influences of cheating'.

 

[TheRedChamber]

It appears individual ineptitudes regarding willpower and self-restraint typically play a massive role in the circumstances regarding cheating, regardless of gender or emotional based excuses that either gender offer

Yes, but under what circumstances is willpower required? I require enormous will-power not to eat a huge bowl of ice-cream, but far less will-power not to eat a bowl of lettuce. I think the question to ask is when do men and women look in the fridge of infidelity and find themselves thinking 'I could really go for a huge serving of that dish? Oh, no I mustn't'.

If I read the topic of the review/essay correctly, it's covering both grounds--male and female patterns of thoughts influencing cheating, and how male and female patterns of thought affect reaction to and discussions of infidelity in the aftermath, after cheating has been discovered.

I agree both or all genders face temptation to cheat and it's morally the same no matter what gender does it. But I thought the essay was going to be about reaction to a partner cheating, and possible differences by gender. Not sure the text bears that out now that I look again, though.

Not sure that the text is actually out yet - there seems to be an older similiarly themed essay regarding cuckolding, but I think LC has played themselves here by announcing the topic early. The chances of the topic still being on topic enough for his actual ideas to be discussed seems unlikey. At the moment people are having too much fun attacking the presumed contents.

 

[SeraphNocturne]

Yes, but under what circumstances is willpower required? I require enormous will-power not to eat a huge bowl of ice-cream, but far less will-power not to eat a bowl of lettuce. I think the question to ask is when do men and women look in the fridge of infidelity and find themselves thinking 'I could really go for a huge serving of that dish? Oh, no I mustn't'.

The comparison of restraint when making decisions of eating, compared to the restraint of actions you know are morally wrong and would literally crush the heart and mind of a person you claim to hold dear if discovered is... relatively poor. Especially when options are involved. You're not destroying the confidence, trust and emotional stability of another person eating a huge bowl of ice cream... you might gain a few pounds but you can hit the gym for a week and correct that. A tainted relationship? The chances of repairing that are abysmal.
An unhappy or bored individual could just as easily break up with or divorce their partner, rather than cheat, and save both parties a long time of negative life experiences. In my experience, it's dramatic and moving to read, but not so entertaining to live through.

I suppose we'll all have to wait and read lc69hunter's submission to really weigh in beyond the basics of the topic. Again, I'm really curious of his personal experiences and thoughts regarding the topic.

 

[TheRedChamber]

Ok, since it's not been mentioned, let me run over 'the geneticists version of the gender war' and see what we think.

Before we start, I shoudl point out that, even simplifying vastly, there are at least three layers of behaviour for a human.

a) The animal layer - instintive behaviours that have build up over millions of years.
b) The societal layer - the rules that groups impose to try and control the animal layer and hopefully make everyone's lives better (debatable how much it succeeds)
c) The individual layer - the decision that one person makes about their own lives based on their upbringing, morals and rational thought.

Everything I'm describing is going on at an animal layer.

The argument says that evolution favours organisms that exhibit behaviours that allow it, not only to produce offspring, but that allow those offspring to reach sexual maturity and reproduce themselves. These strategies differ by species - a frog may produce thousands of offspring in one mating season, but provide no care for them (besides maybe choosing the safest part of the pond), a human on the other hand pours a whole bunch of resources into their (usually) singular offspring both during pregnancy and for its early years and adolesence - arguably this never stops as indeed they will continue to pour resources into their grandchildren.

By resources we mean things like food and possessions (and money once society has developed it) but also time and even emotional labour and education for the child.

Once an organism has enough resources to meet it's own basic needs, it's going to invest resources in finding a mate and then it the resultant offspring.

When choosing the mate, the organism is going to want to prioritize mates that have the best genetic material (i.e. those who demonstrates traits and behaviour that help it succeed in survivial and reproduction)

There are some basic differences physical differences between men and women. The most obvious are that...

Men
1) After the conception they can choose not to provide any resources and play no futher role in the offsprings life.
2) Men remain basically sexually fertile their entire life (it drops slightly, but even into their eighties they can still have children)
3) Men cannot be sure that any child is their own.
4) There is almost no theoretical limit to the number of children he can have.

Women
1) After the conception their bodies are committed to providing 9 months of resources into the child (plus the life risk of childbirth)
2) Women's fertility drops off in their forties and evenutally stops completely.
3) Women can be sure that a child is their own (barring weird circumstantances).
4) There is a limit to the number of children a woman can have in her own lifetime.

These differences are significant enough, I'd venture, that we should expect some kind of difference in the reproductive strategies involved, even if we argue about what they are.

For both men and women there are a number of possible strategies that could work. I'll describe some possibilities first.

(Male) Full Monogamy - the man finds the best woman he can who will have him reasonably early after sexual maturity. They have children together. He commits all his resources to the family unit. By the time the woman is no longer fertile, they have some grandchildren and he commits all his resources to ensuring their successful growth.

(Female) Full Monogamy - the same strategy works essentially the same for women. Find the best man who is willing to commit all his resources to them and remain together for life.

(Male) Eternal Batchelor - the man wanders the Earth having sex with as many women he can. All his surplus resources are poured into the pursuit of intercourse and none into the resultant offspring.

(Female) Superhunk Strategy. - the woman finds the best genetic man she can and has sex with him neither expecting nor asking for any resources in return. She then raises the offspring either on her own or with the support of the biological family members. When it's time for the next child, if dude A is still around and still 'the best', if he's not them move onto dude B.

(Female) Cuckoo Strategy - the woman finds the man who is best willing and able to support her offspring. She then secretly has sex with the best genetic man she can and tricks her 'long-term mate' into raising the child as his own.

(Male) The Monogamy till Menopause - the man finds the best women he can and they have children together. Once the woman is no longer fertile (and any surviving children have reached, if not maturity, then at least an age where they can be abandoned and still have a reasonable shot at survival) he moves onto a woman who can bear him more children.

(Male) The Harem Strategy - the man has sufficient resources that he he can simultationously run the monogamy stragegy with more than one woman. (though note that time is a key resource for child-rearing and finite)
(Female) The Harem Strategy - even as part of a harem, the women is getting still more resources (and possibly good genes) than she might with a poorer male so sharing makes sense.
(Male) Not Quite Monogamy - the man finds the best women and raises children with her. If he has the option to have sex with another woman he takes it. He still devotes the majority of his resources to his primary mate, but may syphon off some to aid any secondary partners. There may come a point where it makes sense to abandon the primary mate for a secondary one.

(Male and Female) Trading Up Strategy - during any of the above strategies the person discovers a better mate or a better strategy and changes their mind about what they are doing.
I'm going to have to head into work in a moment, and I'm sure I'm hitting the word limit for a single post anyway. I'm sure it's clear that the point I'm making is that each of these have potential strength and weaknesses from a genetic-success viewpoint, even if many of them are reprehensbile from a societal or individual moral level. The strategies are also shaped to some extent by gender differences. For example consider:

(Female) The Batchelorette Stategy - the woman has intercourse with the best genetic man she can, has the baby and then immediately abandons it to either the father or her biological family.

This is probably a non-starter as a strategy in a way that the batchelor strategy might not be. At an animal level, the organisms invovled aren't making necessarily concious decisions (though societal programming and individual morality can override them) they're just assessing the situation and following what has worked in their evolutionary past (and I'm not suggesting all these strategies necessarily arose at the evolutionary level rather than at a society level)

 

[ronde]

I think it's not about wiring, so much as it's about chemistry.

Whatever it is, you only have to watch small children to see the difference. From the age when they start to crawl, they approach things much differently. Girls will crawl around things to get where they want to go. Boys will crawl through or over anything in their way. As they get older, boys don't change much in that they're more exploratory and like to be doing something all the time. Girls seem to occupy themselves more than go exploring.

 

[lc69hunter]

It has already been published.

For a very shallow analysis, I am surprised at the score and the fact that I have picked up followers, and some are already adding it to favorites. Of course, the LW trolls have not found it yet

 

[SeraphNocturne]

Just finished reading it, it was a well done essay.

I think you have an very interesting point of view. I wouldn’t say it’s a one size fits all point of view; but an accurate point of view for women who feel and think this way, I’m sure it is.

 

[djrip]

You're going to make me manually search out your name again, aren't you?

(ok, I did it. Interesting read!)

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I've read it and I must say I don't like it at all. It feels like you wrote a discourse that justifies your own lifestyle and women compatible with it, and judges those who dissaprove. Don't take this personally, but I won't go into deeper analysis and discussion as I feel I am doing too much of those lately. Internet discussions are mostly a wasted effort. Either way, good luck with proper stories

 

[Booleanean]

The essay grossly oversimplifies the emotional breadth both men and women can have, demonizes women and makes it sound like it's inevitable that all of them will cheat, makes statements with zero evidence, straw mans every single person in the examples...

The author takes his own experience, which has an inherent confirmation bias in that he's the kind of asshole that's okay with knowingly helping people cheat on their partners, and extrapolates from that single experience.

Don't take this essay as "the way things are". It's not. People are complicated, and different people cheat for vastly different reasons, or never cheat at all. It's fan fiction presented as fact, or a seriously skewed and cynical world view on display and presented as a deep truth about humanity.