This is not a diss....

[AlinaX]

I've always wanted to put in a request for critiques from the writers who offer in that and similar threads.

But, I struggle to draw any attention to myself and my writing, whether negative or positive, because I don't like feeling like I'm bothering people. It's very annoying and I wish I could just do the thing without overthinking it.

Just do it. I will now be disappointed if you don't.

 

[Euphony]

Reading a critique of someone else's work will help me improve my own unique one-off creation... yep, makes sense.

Depending on your attitude, yes.

While "unique," scribblings are only so much so and contain commonalities unless you:

a) chose to ignore that reality
b) are the rare of our species who have mastered the language to the point reinventing it can truly push the artform forward

Probabilities lean towards one over the other.

 

[gunhilltrain]

I've always wanted to put in a request for critiques from the writers who offer in that and similar threads.

But, I struggle to draw any attention to myself and my writing, whether negative or positive, because I don't like feeling like I'm bothering people. It's very annoying and I wish I could just do the thing without overthinking it.

Well, yeah, part of my reason for joining Lit in the first place was that it was not natural for me to draw attention to myself. Perhaps I've gotten used to it, because I'm still here. I wouldn't just randomly ask for somebody to comment - I mean someone I sort of know (as best as it is possible to know someone online). But asking a question on a forum is not too difficult.

 

[alohadave]

This is an excellent example. You don't seriously think that Stanley Kubrick improved his directing work due to the critiques he received from journalists, do you? If he wanted to consult with someone he valued, he likely did so at the beginning and during the project, rather than after it. Public reviews are primarily for promotion, rather than for improvement.

You do you, but plenty of people do get useful feedback from after-the-fact critique.

Not everyone is the attention whore you seem to think they are.

 

[gunhilltrain]

This is an excellent example. You don't seriously think that Stanley Kubrick improved his directing work due to the critiques he received from journalists, do you? If he wanted to consult with someone he valued, he likely did so at the beginning and during the project, rather than after it. Public reviews are primarily for promotion, rather than for improvement.

I doubt that many directors used the reviews to directly change their work. But they sure were aware that the box office returns were dependent on what was in those reviews. Watch that documentary about Heaven's Gate. Or read The Devil's Candy about Bonfire of the Vanities. It seems that both Cimino and DePalma knew they were in trouble when the money didn't come in to cover the costs of their productions; they knew that in the first weekend of release. Cimino's career never really recovered; DePalma seems to have done a bit better.

Bad reviews could be called "anti-promotion."

 

[AwkwardMD]

Don't fight a troll. Their positions are ephemeral, and they will shift the goalposts to wear you down. Starve them.

 

[gunhilltrain]

It's amazing how every time the truth bursts out in an overwhelming flood, the same old troll card is played once again.

If you don't have a convincing argument just yell "troll" - so lame.

I don't think you're a troll. I thought we were having a reasonable discussion about things. We don't have to agree on everything.

 

[MateoParks]

Just came across this story review thread with @AwkwardMD and @Omenainen giving detailed feedback on author's stories. Feels like a two edged sword asking for and then receiving what reads like very detailed and well thought out criticism when you are a first time/early days author, before you're hitting your marks and have basically zero confidence that the stuff in your head is actually worth committing to the page. Better to seek out feedback or publish and be damned (the school of hard knocks)?

I've done a lot of critiques and have always lumped it into two categories: The complimentary fluff to build the self esteem of a new author so they keep at it, and the honest impressions for the people who read like they have enough skill to have the experience to take it---like the people who I'm pretty sure are past the stage of getting discouraged.

And then if the new author comes back and asks, "Hey, what are your thoughts on such and such," that's when I treat them like a committed author, which it sounds like the category that that thread was specifically made for.

How are they ever supposed to learn if no one ever gives them criticisms? Compliments, at best, just reinforce good habits, but that isn't much help to improve on.

And the "School of Hard Knocks" isn't the trial by fire that you make it out to be. As long as the story is comprehensible and hits on the right tropes, it'll get mostly positive feedback. This isn't literary fiction. Most readers aren't here reading these stories to enjoy the craft of writing; they just want to see their kinks hit.

So, a actual dedicated author going back and reviewing their works with the sensibilities of a writer is invaluable.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

If one goes to an Italian restaurant, one should not object to one’s server producing pasta.

Those asking these two particular individuals for comments have a good chance to see in advance what sort of fare they dish out. If you go to them, you’re going to get a certain level and style of critique. Of course they have opinions! I defy anybody to name a decent critic who doesn’t.

While the OP might have felt overwhelmed by the feedback they received, they acknowledge that they are a new writer. You pays yer money, you takes the ride yez bought.

OP, I would humbly suggest that you take this as a learning opportunity. Come back in a couple of dozen more published stories and ask them again; you might be pleasantly surprised.

IMHO, nobody has anything to grieve or apologize for.

 

[TheRedChamber]

The thing is, it takes almost as much time as writing a public review, and with a public one there’s the illusion of possibly greater reach than just one person.

To address this point directly, no it's not just an illusion. Part of the reason I try to offer people feedback every now and then is because it's good discipline for my own work. Seeing what people do well and also the things that I would have done differently is a pleasure, moreso than just reading a story and then forgetting about it. And it is also very helpful to see what other people have identified as its strength and weaknesses and then go away and see if any of it applies to my own writing.

On this basis, while I've never posted in it directly, your thread has been very helpful to my development as a writer.

 

[MelissaBaby]

If one goes to an Italian restaurant, one should not object to one’s server producing pasta.

Those asking these two particular individuals for comments have a good chance to see in advance what sort of fare they dish out. If you go to them, you’re going to get a certain level and style of critique. Of course they have opinions! I defy anybody to name a decent critic who doesn’t.

While the OP might have felt overwhelmed by the feedback they received, they acknowledge that they are a new writer. You pays yer money, you takes the ride yez bought.

OP, I would humbly suggest that you take this as a learning opportunity. Come back in a couple of dozen more published stories and ask them again; you might be pleasantly surprised.

IMHO, nobody has anything to grieve or apologize for.

The OP did not have a story reviewed.

 

[gunhilltrain]

The OP did not have a story reviewed.

I did have one story reviewed by them. They were fair although I didn't agree with everything they had to say.

 

[gunhilltrain]

The thing is done. I'm gonna go panic and freak out now.

I'm sorry, I kind of lost track of what you were going to do. You mean you did give them a story to look at? Don't freak out, it's not a big deal in the end. It's all just words, after all. They might even like it.

 

[oneagainst]

Exactly who I thought you might mean and I've been wondering about them too. Especially since I posted something about the reviewed work around then as well, and then worried that I might have had something to do with it when everything went silent... I want the rest of that story darn it!

While the OP might have felt overwhelmed by the feedback they received, they acknowledge that they are a new writer. You pays yer money, you takes the ride yez bought.

OP, I would humbly suggest that you take this as a learning opportunity. Come back in a couple of dozen more published stories and ask them again; you might be pleasantly surprised.

Uh, yeah, this wasn't about me... I'm happily at about the 120 mark and a pretty thick skin. @djrip - yeah that was the point I was pondering. I see that this thread had skewed a little, there's the usual talk about story promotion, etc., but my original thought was about the mental health aspect. It's the hardest thing to expose yourself when you have just started out and have literally no idea if you're a writing genius or some kind of weird freak. You've already taken a *massive* leap into the dark just by hitting publish even once - man, you never forget your first time - and told the world what's going on in your head. I guess I was concerned for someone, though maybe just real life got in the way as someone else said. It's just a very vulnerable stage of the lifecycle.

 

[MateoParks]

Uh, yeah, this wasn't about me... I'm happily at about the 120 mark and a pretty thick skin. @djrip - yeah that was the point I was pondering. I see that this thread had skewed a little, there's the usual talk about story promotion, etc., but my original thought was about the mental health aspect. It's the hardest thing to expose yourself when you have just started out and have literally no idea if you're a writing genius or some kind of weird freak. You've already taken a *massive* leap into the dark just by hitting publish even once - man, you never forget your first time - and told the world what's going on in your head. I guess I was concerned for someone, though maybe just real life got in the way as someone else said. It's just a very vulnerable stage of the lifecycle.

I think your heart is in the right place here, but I also don't think that this attitude also is showing much respect to the people asking for the critique. As long as they can read a few examples, understand what they're getting into, then the decision is wholly their own.

And are people even writers if they don't constantly waver between thinking they're a genius and absolute dog shite? That's completely normal, from what I've seen.

But, I do think you're right about the people exposing themselves thing. Like, people writing on here aren't just putting their words out into the world for the first time, but their deepest intimacies as well. For me, it almost feels like exhibitionism, advertising all those kinks that I keep locked away in the darkest recesses of my mind, the ones I brush aside in polite company as intrusive thoughts.

But that's really freeing, too, and like I say, it's important to show the people who do put themselves out there respect for their decision, and just being mature enough to ask for a critique, full well knowing their story might get shredded, is very respectable just on it's own.

The compassion you're worried about is really only a superficial kindness. Honestly towards someone's work is the real kindness here. I'd much prefer the friend who'd tell me there's a booger hanging out of my nose.

 

[gunhilltrain]

I think your heart is in the right place here, but I also don't think that this attitude also is showing much respect to the people asking for the critique. As long as they can read a few examples, understand what they're getting into, then the decision is wholly their own.

And are people even writers if they don't constantly waver between thinking they're a genius and absolute dog shite? That's completely normal, from what I've seen.

But, I do think you're right about the people exposing themselves thing. Like, people writing on here aren't just putting their words out into the world for the first time, but their deepest intimacies as well. For me, it almost feels like exhibitionism, advertising all those kinks that I keep locked away in the darkest recesses of my mind, the ones I brush aside in polite company as intrusive thoughts.

But that's really freeing, too, and like I say, it's important to show the people who do put themselves out there respect for their decision, and just being mature enough to ask for a critique, full well knowing their story might get shredded, is very respectable just on it's own.

The compassion you're worried about is really only a superficial kindness. Honestly towards someone's work is the real kindness here. I'd much prefer the friend who'd tell me there's a booger hanging out of my nose.

True, it's like exposing some deeper recesses of the mind, but I've sort of gotten used to it. The Shadow Self, as Jung called it. (Not that I have any training in psychology, but intuitively the idea seems plausible.) And what's in there isn't really that bad. Usually I don't want to do the kind of coercion and blackmail that seems popular in Story Ideas (do they ever write most of that?), but that's the way I think.

I also don't think I'm either a genius or that I'm writing dog crap. Some of it better than others, but that's acceptable to me. If I may digress a bit, Jung thought is was best to acknowledge those inner thoughts (usually related to both aggression and sexuality) and put them to some use. Isn't that one of the things that Lit does?

 

[Omenainen]

Feels like a two edged sword asking for and then receiving what reads like very detailed and well thought out criticism when you are a first time/early days author, before you're hitting your marks and have basically zero confidence that the stuff in your head is actually worth committing to the page.

Uh, yeah, this wasn't about me... I'm happily at about the 120 mark and a pretty thick skin. @djrip - yeah that was the point I was pondering. I see that this thread had skewed a little, there's the usual talk about story promotion, etc., but my original thought was about the mental health aspect. It's the hardest thing to expose yourself when you have just started out and have literally no idea if you're a writing genius or some kind of weird freak. You've already taken a *massive* leap into the dark just by hitting publish even once - man, you never forget your first time - and told the world what's going on in your head. I guess I was concerned for someone, though maybe just real life got in the way as someone else said. It's just a very vulnerable stage of the lifecycle.

I read these, and now I’m wondering. Do you know something the rest of us don’t know, or are you just wildly interpreting someone’s state of mind based on… what, exactly? Isn’t that awfully patronizing no matter what it’s based on? And if you’ve had contact with them and they’ve told you they feel vulnerable and have zero confidence in their skill, is it your place to discuss it publicly with other people? @oneagainst

I don’t think you have ill intent, but I do feel this is kind of weird.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

The OP did not have a story reviewed.

Ah. My eyes are getting worse and I apologize if I’ve inadvertently offended,

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Uh, yeah, this wasn't about me... I'm happily at about the 120 mark and a pretty thick skin. @djrip - yeah that was the point I was pondering. I see that this thread had skewed a little, there's the usual talk about story promotion, etc., but my original thought was about the mental health aspect. It's the hardest thing to expose yourself when you have just started out and have literally no idea if you're a writing genius or some kind of weird freak. You've already taken a *massive* leap into the dark just by hitting publish even once - man, you never forget your first time - and told the world what's going on in your head. I guess I was concerned for someone, though maybe just real life got in the way as someone else said. It's just a very vulnerable stage of the lifecycle.

Again, my apologies if I misunderstood.

 

[rvagirl]

For what it’s worth, way down the thread, I am someone who gets paid to write in real life, and Awkward and O give comparable or, often, better feedback than most editors I’ve worked for. We’re lucky to have them. We’re lucky that they care so much.

 

[jsmiam]

There’s one good (and at the exact same time one bad) thing about this thread’s topic. .

The review thread is being reviewed. And there seems to be a little discomfort on the part of the reviewers being reviewed? Perhaps that’s good, for the reviewers to get a little taste of the process?

But perhaps not, too. The review thread in question is operated on a “by request” basis. People who ask for reviews, by definition, ASKED for their review. No such request for a review of the review thread was made.

So there you have it. I propose it would be perfectly fair for an unsolicited review of the OP’s latest story. Or to apply a bit of pressure on the OP, to “ask” for such a review. Seems fair to me.

 

[AlinaX]

This thread should not have been started at all. Let's not escalate.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Most of the time, I write what I want, it comes out pretty much how I want, and I inflict it on Lit. Sometimes I ask for some help for some reason (ensuring American characters sound plausible, for example), and other authors from the AH have been very helpful.

A few times I produce a draft and can tell it doesn't quite work as a story, but not why. I've asked for comments on the storyline and pacing, but not on content, nor grammar or proofreading, as I can do the last two myself. And a few very kind people have responded, usually with something like "you've got all these different story threads, only these two never go anywhere, then this one comes out of nowhere, and this bit and that bit were confusing."

Omen has been one of those very helpful people - my Educating Laura series was a mess before she suggested ways to reorder it.

I think she learnt from the first Pink Orchid thread that often people don't want criticism, and to offer it only when invited. I did invite it for my Pink Orchid story this year.

I can therefore confirm she's quite capable of reviewing a story with content such as BDSM (eg the Educating Laura series) or choosing to comment only on aspects where she's eminently qualified, eg my PO story which was pure BDSM:

Omenainen 3 months ago "Um… oo, what to say. I am at a loss for words. I will say that… I… really enjoy the mutual respect that is shown in this story and the existence and respect of boundaries. Yes, that’s what I’ll say "

 

[MelissaBaby]

There’s one good (and at the exact same time one bad) thing about this thread’s topic. .

The review thread is being reviewed. And there seems to be a little discomfort on the part of the reviewers being reviewed? Perhaps that’s good, for the reviewers to get a little taste of the process?

But perhaps not, too. The review thread in question is operated on a “by request” basis. People who ask for reviews, by definition, ASKED for their review. No such request for a review of the review thread was made.

So there you have it. I propose it would be perfectly fair for an unsolicited review of the OP’s latest story. Or to apply a bit of pressure on the OP, to “ask” for such a review. Seems fair to me.

Is that meant to be tongue in cheek?

The OP did not ask for the review thread to be reviewed. The only question in their post was whether it was better to get reviewed and risk having their confidence shaken, or to just "publish and be damned."

Neither posting a retaliatory review of their work, as if they had committed some offense, or pressuring them to submit to being reviewed seem fair to me.

 

[oneagainst]

I read these, and now I’m wondering. Do you know something the rest of us don’t know, or are you just wildly interpreting someone’s state of mind based on… what, exactly? Isn’t that awfully patronizing no matter what it’s based on? And if you’ve had contact with them and they’ve told you they feel vulnerable and have zero confidence in their skill, is it your place to discuss it publicly with other people? @oneagainst

I don’t think you have ill intent, but I do feel this is kind of weird.

Uh, okay...? I didn't mean for people to need to feel defensive, so I'm just going to take that as a comment.

My original interest in posting the question was on the benefits of seeking out reviews if you're early stage vs just putting your stuff out there, and the potential impacts to the confidence of new writers. I think we've now extensively covered that ground TBH.