Copyright / plagiarism question

[EmilyMiller]

So I guess this relates to the following thread:

https://forum.literotica.com/threads/adopting-a-story-series.1584774/#post-96651466

I didn’t think what the OP was proposing was too cool and most people seemed to agree. But…

I have a story at present where I include a lightly modified (but still obvious) line from H2G2. It’s a well known line and used for satirical effect. Its a tongue-in-cheek, winking, fourth-wall breaking pop-culture reference (much like Spike misquoting Shakespeare in Buffy: “we band of buggered”). But…

I’m now thinking a) is that still copyright infringement? b) am I being just as bad as the guy in the other thread.

Thoughts or advice?

Em

 

[alohadave]

What's the line, the context, and the extent of the use?

 

[SimonDoom]

Is it in dialogue?

I don't think you'll have any problem with just taking one line and modifying it and using it for comic effect.

 

[EmilyMiller]

What's the line, the context, and the extent of the use?

It’s 40 words. A famous example of Marvin The Paranoid Android complaining about life.

It’s put into the mouth of a character that has also been abandoned for millennia, but an entirely different character with entirely different reasons for abandonment.

There is zero plot. And my borrowing is entirely obvious, I’m not trying to present it as my own work. Quite the opposite.

It would be like borrowing from Alien’s strap-line to create: in space no one can hear you orgasm.

Em

 

[EmilyMiller]

Is it in dialogue?

I don't think you'll have any problem with just taking one line and modifying it and using it for comic effect.

It’s in dialog. And it’s meant to wink at the reader.

It’s like later I have a character be dismissive about the writing skills of novice sci-fi writers. Which is obviouly self-referential.

Em

 

[MrPixel]

Fair Use Doctrine

 

[EmilyMiller]

Fair Use Doctrine

I understand the parody exemption. You could argue a lot of the story is a sci-fi parody, but I’m certainly not parodying the work I borrowed the line from.

It’s a British work and they have a different approach to this area.

At the end of the day, neither the estate of Douglas Adams, nor his publisher is going to sue me. I just want to do the right thing.

It’s meant more as an homage than plagiarism.

Em

 

[Rob_Royale]

I think as long as you mention it in your closing paragraph, it should be fine. Which I'm sure you'd have done anyway.

 

[Lifestyle66]

I understand the parody exemption. You could argue a lot of the story is a sci-fi parody, but I’m certainly not parodying the work I borrowed the line from.

It’s a British work and they have a different approach to this area.

At the end of the day, neither the estate of Douglas Adams, nor his publisher is going to sue me. I just want to do the right thing.

It’s meant more as an homage than plagiarism.

Em

I'm working on my Amorous Goods story. I'm including a witch's chant, and I will credit the source at the end of the chant:

****
As their chant progressed, the cat’s eyes flared. A very subtle blue-white gleam of twisting tendrils seemed to reach out as ropes of light from its eyes toward the cauldron.

“Double, double, toil and trouble;
Fire burn, and caldron bubble.
Cool it with a baboon’s blood,
Then the charm is firm and good”

[The Three Witches chant from Shakespeare’s ‘Macbeth’]

As she poured the small flask of blood into the bubbling mix, ...
****

I didn't want to burn my own braincells trying to come up with an original chant.

 

[Djmac1031]

At the end of the day, neither the estate of Douglas Adams, nor his publisher is going to sue me. I just want to do the right thing.

I think it would be fine. If you truly feel the need to point out the homage, mention it and Adams in an Afterwards.

I just made a Hitchhiker's Guide joke / reference in The White Room Revisited, and '42' has popped up in a few other stores lol.

 

[djrip]

It's definitely fine. I don't think a citation is necessary at all for a pop culture reference. If my friend careens the car into a field and I go "roads? Where were going we don't need roads," everyone knows what I'm talking about.

 

[Lifestyle66]

I think it would be fine. If you truly feel the need to point out the homage, mention it and Adams in an Afterwards.

I just made a Hitchhiker's Guide joke / reference in The White Room Revisited, and '42' has popped up in a few other stores lol.

I thought '42' was obviously known by everyone as "life, the universe, and EVERYTHING". Who hasn't heard that?

 

[EmilyMiller]

It's definitely fine. I don't think a citation is necessary at all for a pop culture reference. If my friend careens the car into a field and I go "roads? Where were going we don't need roads," everyone knows what I'm talking about.

Yes. It’s just like that. I’m a worrier though.

Em

 

[Djmac1031]

My Halloween story from last year is a total homage / parody of Night Of The Living Dead, even using several of the character names. (Completely different characters of course.)

Despite the fact that my title, "Night Of The Giving Head" should have made the homage obvious, I still gave George Romero and NOTLD a shout out in the Afterwards as being, of course, the inspiration.

Do I think we need to credit EVERY pop culture reference we make in a story? Not at all. I've had characters quote Star Wars several times now lol.

 

[SimonDoom]

It’s in dialog. And it’s meant to wink at the reader.

It’s like later I have a character be dismissive about the writing skills of novice sci-fi writers. Which is obviouly self-referential.

Em

Sounds like a fair use to me.

It's extremely minimal, and you could argue it's a parody of the original line. It has no impact on the economic value of the original work.

 

[alohadave]

My Halloween story from last year is a total homage / parody of Night Of The Living Dead, even using several of the character names.

Fun fact, Night of the Living Dead is public domain in the US. The original distributor failed to place the copyright notice on the film and it immediately fell into PD.

So use the characters to your hearts content.

This is a big reason why zombie movies have copied the format so many times.

 

[Seadog777]

As long as you don't copy it word for word, you're perfectly fine.

 

[ronde]

It’s in dialog. And it’s meant to wink at the reader.

It’s like later I have a character be dismissive about the writing skills of novice sci-fi writers. Which is obviouly self-referential.

Em

I believe the key here is you used it in dialogue. That wouldn't be any different than if your character had said, "I'll be back", the famous line from "The Terminator". You aren't representing the line as your own work. You're just using a line from another work to add interest to your character. You also probably thought the original line said it better than you could have.

The other key here is that you used only a very small part of the original work and probably don't stand to gain or to deprive the original author of any financial or professional award for the use. That's typically a key to most copyright infringement cases - that the unauthorized use of all or part of a work deprives the originator of income or fame and instead grants that to the one copying the work.

 

[lc69hunter]

I am currently following a multi-chapter story in which the author actually references and quotes some lines from it. Maggie Glyllenhaal's movie, "The Secretary". Very erotic. It is what hooked me on to the story.

 

[Paul_Chance]

If it's obvious that your character is, tongue in cheek, quoting another work, then you should be fine. Personally, I'd make it clear that's what the character is doing, and depending on the length of the quote I'd give credit, either in the story or in an end note.

Though plagiarism is generally thought of as word for word, it can also be something that substantially copies another work and presents it as it's own. The "well, it's obvious" is not an excuse.

 

[PennameWombat]

I'm working on my Amorous Goods story. I'm including a witch's chant, and I will credit the source at the end of the chant:

****
As their chant progressed, the cat’s eyes flared. A very subtle blue-white gleam of twisting tendrils seemed to reach out as ropes of light from its eyes toward the cauldron.

“Double, double, toil and trouble;
Fire burn, and caldron bubble.
Cool it with a baboon’s blood,
Then the charm is firm and good”

[The Three Witches chant from Shakespeare’s ‘Macbeth’]

As she poured the small flask of blood into the bubbling mix, ...
****

I didn't want to burn my own braincells trying to come up with an original chant.

Shakespeare's works are well in the public domain. Being a few hundred years old and all that. You have no requirement to cite the source. In fact, you can take the original works and do whatever you want with them. Just make sure you're working from the original texts.

But if you were committing copyright infringement, citing the source wouldn't excuse it.

But why would you include the citation inline in fiction? That'd take me right out of the story. If your witches make it part of their actions, e.g., one says "uh, hell... what were we going to chant?" and another just says "the oldies are the goodies... ol' Shakes had it right..." and they use it, that I'd see nothing wrong with. This isn't academia.

My Halloween story from last year is a total homage / parody of Night Of The Living Dead, even using several of the character names. (Completely different characters of course.)

Despite the fact that my title, "Night Of The Giving Head" should have made the homage obvious, I still gave George Romero and NOTLD a shout out in the Afterwards as being, of course, the inspiration.

Do I think we need to credit EVERY pop culture reference we make in a story? Not at all. I've had characters quote Star Wars several times now lol.

Someone already mentioned the 'Night of the Living Dead' copyright mistake - pre-1989 in the US, works had to be marked and when they made a last-minute decision to change the title (was 'Night of the Flesh Eaters') they forgot to restore the mark.

As to crediting every minor pop culture reference, I agree. Don't bother. Having a character slip on his sunglasses at 10 p.m. and say "I'll be back" in a stilted voice doesn't need to be credited. That's really part of the pop culture reference 'game,' leaving the readers to pick them up or not. If you've built an entire story around some source, that's different. But I've seen mainstream books that never bothered to mention the source (e.g., a book I read a few decades back, I had this odd feeling of familiarity... worked out it was a rehash of "The Man in the Iron Mask." Perfectly allowable, the original being public domain and all.)

But crediting or citation does not excuse you from copyright infringement IF you've committed it. That's the mass of YouTube videos who say at the end "no copyright infringement intended" thinking that puts them in the clear after they've just infringed on multiple copyrights.

If your use falls under 'Fair Use', whether you even need to cite or not isn't a copyright issue, it might fall under plagiarism, but that's not a legal doctrine. It's an ethical issue depending on your publication.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Forty words though.

You might want to cut the quote back some, and leave a credit at the end (or in context, in the text - I've done that with song references or lyric quotes, acknowledged it then and there).

It'll be up to Laurel, in any event, so flag it in a Note to the Editor, when you submit.

 

[Lifestyle66]

Shakespeare's works are well in the public domain. Being a few hundred years old and all that. You have no requirement to cite the source. In fact, you can take the original works and do whatever you want with them. Just make sure you're working from the original texts.

But if you were committing copyright infringement, citing the source wouldn't excuse it.

But why would you include the citation inline in fiction? That'd take me right out of the story. If your witches make it part of their actions, e.g., one says "uh, hell... what were we going to chant?" and another just says "the oldies are the goodies... ol' Shakes had it right..." and they use it, that I'd see nothing wrong with. This isn't academia.



Someone already mentioned the 'Night of the Living Dead' copyright mistake - pre-1989 in the US, works had to be marked and when they made a last-minute decision to change the title (was 'Night of the Flesh Eaters') they forgot to restore the mark.

As to crediting every minor pop culture reference, I agree. Don't bother. Having a character slip on his sunglasses at 10 p.m. and say "I'll be back" in a stilted voice doesn't need to be credited. That's really part of the pop culture reference 'game,' leaving the readers to pick them up or not. If you've built an entire story around some source, that's different. But I've seen mainstream books that never bothered to mention the source (e.g., a book I read a few decades back, I had this odd feeling of familiarity... worked out it was a rehash of "The Man in the Iron Mask." Perfectly allowable, the original being public domain and all.)

But crediting or citation does not excuse you from copyright infringement IF you've committed it. That's the mass of YouTube videos who say at the end "no copyright infringement intended" thinking that puts them in the clear after they've just infringed on multiple copyrights.

If your use falls under 'Fair Use', whether you even need to cite or not isn't a copyright issue, it might fall under plagiarism, but that's not a legal doctrine. It's an ethical issue depending on your publication.

When I write, I write for myself with my own thoughts and ideas.

So, if I am going to use a significant portion of ANYONE's writing in my story, I'm going to give credit where credit is due. I don't want the trolls commenting that I'm regurgitating some else's work. And in this case, I'm using the entire Three Witches Chant in my story (that was just a sample).

I already expect at least a dozen trolls hitting me with 1-bombs. So, I don't need a dozen more Shakespearian enthusiast English majors slamming me.