Was it worth writing a story?

[SimonDoom]

No, you are the one misunderstanding the process.

If a writer submits a story to a free site such as this, then it is a "gift" from that author to the site. The site is under no obligation to post the story and readers are under no obligation to view it. There is no "contract" between anyone.

When a reader seeks out a story submitted as a gift, they have no duty or obligation to provide feedback or express the slightest gratitude. This is true for any type of gift.

My point, and I believe the view of most authors here, is that common courtesy would dictate that a person seeking out a gift and then making use of that gift should express appreciation for that gift. Virtue in the form of expressed appreciation is not a requirement, but a pleasant commodity in civilized societies. Consequently, I take issue with your assertion that manners and virtue have nothing to do with it, they just have nothing to do with it here. There lies the issue.

The simple fact is, that while virtue and gratitude might exist in abundance within a person, they are frequently cast aside when partaking in erotic literature. The same expectations related to civility do not apply here for too many readers, and authors need to accept that reality.

Disappointment comes only from unfulfilled expectations. Modify expectations or continue to be disappointed.

I don't see it as a gift. There are three different relationships involved. Author-Site, Site-Reader, and Author-Reader.

The relationship between the author and site is contractual. The site has terms you must follow to publish a story, and it gives you certain rights as an author. Posting a story here is not a gift in any meaningful sense. It's part of a contractual relationship between the author and site. It's a bargained for exchange, in which the bargain is struck when the author accepts the site's terms for publishing stories here. That relationship theoretically could be enforced in court if a dispute arose.

The relationship between the site and the reader also is contractual. Readers use the site pursuant to the terms laid down by the site.

There's no formal relationship between the author and reader. The author isn't giving anything to the reader in a formal or legal sense; the author is merely publishing stories to the site. When I post stories, for example, I don't see doing so as a gift. I get something out of it, and the site and the readers get something out of it. It's a process of mutual exchange and benefit. I get something out of it regardless of whether a reader gives me a comment on my story, and as part of the process of mutual exchange I don't expect anything out of the reader.

I appreciate comments, but I don't expect them, and I would never seek to impose on readers a sense that they have an obligation, whether as a matter of rule, morality, or courtesy, to do so. I say that as both an author and as a reader. It's nice to give comments, but I don't see it as "uncivil" not to, and my guess is most other authors agree with me.

 

[djrip]

gift has no strings attached. That is to say that one gives with no expectation whatsoever of getting anything in return. As your original post insinuates, you consider your posted story a gift, yet you are disappointed if you do not get a vote or a comment in return. Well that is a string attached, an expectation. Therefore you are offering a contract, not a gift

I don't think you understand what a contract is. If I give someone a slice of pizza, and then get upset later when they don't give me a slice of theirs, that doesn't turn the gift into a contract. Signing something before I give him the pizza that specifies that I will be entitled to his pizza later, enforceable through legal channels, would make it a contract.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

I don't see it as a gift. There are three different relationships involved. Author-Site, Site-Reader, and Author-Reader.

The relationship between the author and site is contractual. The site has terms you must follow to publish a story, and it gives you certain rights as an author. Posting a story here is not a gift in any meaningful sense. It's part of a contractual relationship between the author and site. It's a bargained for exchange, in which the bargain is struck when the author accepts the site's terms for publishing stories here. That relationship theoretically could be enforced in court if a dispute arose.

The relationship between the site and the reader also is contractual. Readers use the site pursuant to the terms laid down by the site.

There's no formal relationship between the author and reader. The author isn't giving anything to the reader in a formal or legal sense; the author is merely publishing stories to the site. When I post stories, for example, I don't see doing so as a gift. I get something out of it, and the site and the readers get something out of it. It's a process of mutual exchange and benefit. I get something out of it regardless of whether a reader gives me a comment on my story, and as part of the process of mutual exchange I don't expect anything out of the reader.

I appreciate comments, but I don't expect them, and I would never seek to impose on readers a sense that they have an obligation, whether as a matter of rule, morality, or courtesy, to do so. I say that as both an author and as a reader. It's nice to give comments, but I don't see it as "uncivil" not to, and my guess is most other authors agree with me.

My description of a "gift" versus a "contract" is centered on virtue, ethics, and moral aspects that are philosophical rather than legal.

A writer here receives no material compensation for their contributions to the site, providing tangible value that benefits those who read the material. The definition of a gift is "something given willingly without expectation of compensation." How many stories here don't meet that definition?

There are few, if any, legal obligations people who receive a gift face where gratitude is concerned in this world. There are however societal and cultural expectations.

These are what go out the window when people visit this site and what writers who contribute here should base their expectations on.

 

[JaxRhapsody]

I looked at Asstr.org maybe twice. A couple of stories I found were "true" pedophilia, in my definition. Let's just say prepubescent, and the perpetrators were adults. And the writing quality was pretty bad. I have heard of the other two, but I don't think I'vs seen them.

FanFictionNet is as old as this site, set to replace the Usenets and places, but it's rather puritan in what it allows. ArchiveOfOurOwn, and Adult-FanFiction rose up because of it, where practically anything can be written, so there's significant smut/erotica on both. I write on all three, but aff I use more for cross posting from the other two. I use ffn as a challenge not to just put sex in everything.

 

[gunhilltrain]

FanFictionNet is as old as this site, set to replace the Usenets and places, but it's rather puritan in what it allows. ArchiveOfOurOwn, and Adult-FanFiction rose up because of it, where practically anything can be written, so there's significant smut/erotica on both. I write on all three, but aff I use more for cross posting from the other two. I use ffn as a challenge not to just put sex in everything.

I think I've heard of all of those. But being on three sites already is quite a lot. Maybe I'll consider another one later this year. I do have some new versions (or near dupes) of stories in more than one place.

 

[JaxRhapsody]

I think I've heard of all of those. But being on three sites already is quite a lot. Maybe I'll consider another one later this year. I do have some new versions (or near dupes) of stories in more than one place.

I post on several writing sites in hopes to get my name out there, for when I make my attempts to make money from it. I could probably use some more, if you're willing to share.

 

[KeithD]

I don't see it as a gift. There are three different relationships involved. Author-Site, Site-Reader, and Author-Reader.

The relationship between the author and site is contractual. The site has terms you must follow to publish a story, and it gives you certain rights as an author.

No, the Web site doesn't concede a story submitter here any "rights" at all. The users have no "rights" here--only volunteered services. If you or anyone else thinks "rights" are involved, please point out the language on the Web site that concedes any rights.

 

[djrip]

No, the Web site doesn't concede a story submitter here any "rights" at all. The users have no "rights" here--only volunteered services. If you or anyone else thinks "rights" are involved, please point out the language on the Web site that concedes any rights.

The website specifies that authors retain rights to what they post, and the right to remove it, at least.

 

[gunhilltrain]

I post on several writing sites in hopes to get my name out there, for when I make my attempts to make money from it. I could probably use some more, if you're willing to share.

That's about all the sites I've heard of. So are you attempting to publish for money under a user name or under your real name?

 

[SimonDoom]

No, the Web site doesn't concede a story submitter here any "rights" at all. The users have no "rights" here--only volunteered services. If you or anyone else thinks "rights" are involved, please point out the language on the Web site that concedes any rights.

Users have rights to use the site, subject to terms. They have the right to post stories, read them, rate them. As an author you retain the copyright in your stories and grant only a nonexclusive license. You agree to terms of service that are posted, and those terms incorporate a private policy, DMCA notice procedures, and references to applicable law. If the site were to violate your rights, such as misappropriating your copyright or violating your privacy rights, you would have a claim for breach of contract under the law. So, yes, it's a contractual relationship under the law in which both parties -- the site and the author -- have enforceable rights.

 

[SimonDoom]

There are however societal and cultural expectations.

These are what go out the window when people visit this site and what writers who contribute here should base their expectations on.

If you feel you have an obligation as a matter of courtesy to acknowledge the author's "gift" of the story, then I applaud you. That's nice. I just don't think most people here quite think that way, and it's not a shared view of what people "should" do. If I like a story, I try to remember to vote on it and leave a nice comment, but sometimes I don't because I forget or I'm not sure what to say. But I don't feel a strong obligation to do so as a matter of morality or courtesy. Maybe your view would make the site a nicer place.

 

[KeithD]

The website specifies that authors retain rights to what they post, and the right to remove it, at least.

Those are Web site no-commitment-to-anything "rights." At the base you don't have the "right" to post and maintain a story or to preserve a discussion board entry. Given that, there's really nothing "real" for a user to assert in "rights" to maintain involvement here. It's all the sufferance of the Web site administrators.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I don't think you understand what a contract is. If I give someone a slice of pizza, and then get upset later when they don't give me a slice of theirs, that doesn't turn the gift into a contract. Signing something before I give him the pizza that specifies that I will be entitled to his pizza later, enforceable through legal channels, would make it a contract.

Correct, no it doesn't. If you get upset later for getting nothing back it means that you never intended it as a gift in the first place. You had a string attached to it the whole time, so you had actually offered a contract whether you knew it or not.

No, you are the one misunderstanding the process.

If a writer submits a story to a free site such as this, then it is a "gift" from that author to the site. The site is under no obligation to post the story and readers are under no obligation to view it. There is no "contract" between anyone.

Incorrect. I know exactly what I am talking about. You are correct that there are no obligations between the author, the site and the readers (other than to abide by site rules I suppose). Yet at the same time you contradict yourself as you still have an expectation for feedback from readers. They have no obligations, yet they have an obligation? Your argument implodes upon itself right there. Simple logic.

When a reader seeks out a story submitted as a gift, they have no duty or obligation to provide feedback or express the slightest gratitude. This is true for any type of gift.

My point, and I believe the view of most authors here, is that common courtesy would dictate that a person seeking out a gift and then making use of that gift should express appreciation for that gift.

And you repeat yourself. The first sentence says that there is no obligation. The second sentence says that there is. The two statements cannot logically co-exist. These are your words and yours alone.

You see, you can call it common courtesy (which means nothing since 7 billion people have 7 billion definitions for what is common sense or common courtesy but that's another argument altogether), but it is still your expectation for appreciation for your gift. Your expectation - stop right there - that is the string that you attach to your gift, which by definition means obligation, which therefore makes it no longer a gift.

Is there an obligation here or not? It's not a grey question, and there are no conditions upon the answer. It's yes or no. You need to figure that out before you continue your debate.

Disappointment comes only from unfulfilled expectations. Modify expectations or continue to be disappointed.

And this one is grand. Disappointment (your disgruntlement over people freely enjoying the prose that you work hard to provide without expressing gratitude) only comes from unfulfilled expectations (the obligation that you put upon readers to applaud you).

 

[KeithD]

Reality time. When you have a story posted on a free-use, freely accessible Web site like this, you gave it away. (another word for this is that you "gifted" it.) You valued it at zero worth legally. You can use whatever word you want for that to fool yourself. You dropped it into the public venue. You gave it away. That doesn't mean you can't try to make money off it if you can get someone to pay for it. It does mean you'll get the horselaugh, formal copyright or not, if you try to sue someone about it in court. You valued it at zero worth if the Web site you put it on is giving it away free.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I appreciate comments, but I don't expect them, and I would never seek to impose on readers a sense that they have an obligation, whether as a matter of rule, morality, or courtesy, to do so. I say that as both an author and as a reader. It's nice to give comments, but I don't see it as "uncivil" not to, and my guess is most other authors agree with me.

I agree your legal assessment of the relationships involved, and I agree in particular with this paragraph - no one is obliged to do anything.

The way to cut through it all, though, is to write something well enough and intimate enough, that it moves people. Then they'll thank you for the gift, and they'll thank you for sharing, and the "problem" is solved.

I can never figure out, when readers use either term ("gift" or "sharing") whether they mean I have a gift for writing, which I'm sharing with them; or whether they think I'm sharing something from my life, and they see that as the gift. It's when they say, "Thank you both for sharing," that I think it's the latter, and they think the characters and the story are real people, real events. That's when I know I've written a good story.

 

[cheeksarerosy]

Interesting that you write this - I came to the forum today to say something very similar.

My story is VERY long, and I've only scratched the surface with it so far. I did put a caveat at the beginning that this would be a slow burn, but the comment was that it was repetitive and taking forever, and to just get to it.

First of all, I get that not all stories are for everyone, but is it too much to ask to look at the disclaimer and move on?

Obviously yes.

I suppose I wasn't prepared for how much the comment - the ONLY comment I've gotten so far - would affect me.

In retrospect, I think I would have broken things up VERY differently. Publishing on this site has been interesting, and I'm only now getting used to it. So learning opportunity there.

I don't think my writing sucks, so the 1-star ratings seem a bit over the top as well.

In the end, as in my original disclaimer, this story is for me. I had considered briefly just pulling everything off of the site and pouting, but I'll soldier forward and see what comes of it. I might just disable rating and comments, and have it out there as is on a take-it-or-leave-it basis.

Either way, at least I did a thing.

 

[KeithD]

Interesting that you write this - I came to the forum today to say something very similar.

My story is VERY long, and I've only scratched the surface with it so far. I did put a caveat at the beginning that this would be a slow burn, but the comment was that it was repetitive and taking forever, and to just get to it.

First of all, I get that not all stories are for everyone, but is it too much to ask to look at the disclaimer and move on?

You might take a look at it again. "Slow burn" and "repetitive" aren't the same thing. If you are repeating stuff over and over again, the problem is not a slow buildup, it's needlessly repeating verbiage that was already provided. That, indeed, isn't very good in writing.

And, as I noted before, I think disclaimers are little read/considered. More often than not they are defensive and let the reader know there maybe something there they won't like. If the readers are adults and they get to something that gives them the vapors, they jolly well can just back out. There's nothing to prevent them from complaining, though, disclaimer or no disclaimer. (Some disclaimers are false--just making an effort to get something questionable published here.)

 

[ElectricBlue]

In the end, as in my original disclaimer, this story is for me. I had considered briefly just pulling everything off of the site and pouting, but I'll soldier forward and see what comes of it. I might just disable rating and comments, and have it out there as is on a take-it-or-leave-it basis.

I wouldn't do that, otherwise you'll get no feedback at all. Persevere, keep writing, get better at it; it can be a long haul. Mind you, certain categories can be no help at all, but you can control that, by doing some rudimentary homework on categories before you post in them.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

Correct, no it doesn't. If you get upset later for getting nothing back it means that you never intended it as a gift in the first place. You had a string attached to it the whole time, so you had actually offered a contract whether you knew it or not.



Incorrect. I know exactly what I am talking about. You are correct that there are no obligations between the author, the site and the readers (other than to abide by site rules I suppose). Yet at the same time you contradict yourself as you still have an expectation for feedback from readers. They have no obligations, yet they have an obligation? Your argument implodes upon itself right there. Simple logic.



And you repeat yourself. The first sentence says that there is no obligation. The second sentence says that there is. The two statements cannot logically co-exist. These are your words and yours alone.

You see, you can call it common courtesy (which means nothing since 7 billion people have 7 billion definitions for what is common sense or common courtesy but that's another argument altogether), but it is still your expectation for appreciation for your gift. Your expectation - stop right there - that is the string that you attach to your gift, which by definition means obligation, which therefore makes it no longer a gift.

Is there an obligation here or not? It's not a grey question, and there are no conditions upon the answer. It's yes or no. You need to figure that out before you continue your debate.



And this one is grand. Disappointment (your disgruntlement over people freely enjoying the prose that you work hard to provide without expressing gratitude) only comes from unfulfilled expectations (the obligation that you put upon readers to applaud you).

In making my point I have apparently given you the impression that I am "disgruntled" with the feedback my stories receive here.

This, like so much of your eloquent commentary, is incorrect. Based on comments from other authors in these threads over the years, I actually believe that my feedback from readers is above average.

I have repeatedly stated that virtues and considerations exhibited in the majority of cultures and societies around the world do not apply here on Lit. Similar to how the language one might hear in a bar, pub, or tavern does not match what one would hear in a house of worship. Erotic story sites attract a culture of readership that feels no obligation or duty for the expression of appreciation. I'm fine with that or I wouldn't be here.

I have shared that I have no expectations for feedback here. I have also implied that it might be nice if that could change.

You can continue to read into that whatever you want.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

In making my point I have apparently given you the impression that I am "disgruntled" with the feedback my stories receive here.

This, like so much of your eloquent commentary, is incorrect. Based on comments from other authors in these threads over the years, I actually believe that my feedback from readers is above average.

Yes I am correct that you are not happy with your feedback. You have stated many times that you are, and you state it again right here.

I have shared that I have no expectations for feedback here. I have also implied that it might be nice if that could change.

You can continue to read into that whatever you want.

I am not reading into anything. I'm taking blunt face value. You wish that the culture here would give you more feedback, and why? Based on your many iterations of your argument throughout this thread is that through 'common courtesy' (or whatever other excuse that you want) you are owed gratitude for your toil, which you claim is a gift, yet still want something back in return. And since you keep talking in circles, I'll come around and explain again that the definition of a gift is an offering with no expectation of returns whatsoever, a definition that you yourself has even agreed to above, yet you don't understand.

That disappointment that you have with the lack of feedback means that you expected feedback when you posted your work and that little string which you have attached to your work is the expectation of return that makes your story not a gift. You are posting a contract, yet you are not soliciting the contract. Effectively what you are doing is putting a kitten next to a sign that says 'free kitten' and then coming back an hour later to see the kitten gone and getting upset that no one left you a cookie. Well, you never asked for anything let alone a cookie, so your disappointment is all on you. Your disappointment has nothing to do with common courtesy or the culture of the site or anything or anyone else, just simply your own misplaced expectations. You can't deny this since you are on record stating how you wish the culture would change so that you could be happier with your experience here. That is your expectation, which makes your story offerings here contracts, not gifts.

 

[JaxRhapsody]

That's about all the sites I've heard of. So are you attempting to publish for money under a user name or under your real name?

Eventually. Not under my real name, though, I don't like that connected to much of anything.

 

[djrip]

Yes I am correct that you are not happy with your feedback. You have stated many times that you are, and you state it again right here.



I am not reading into anything. I'm taking blunt face value. You wish that the culture here would give you more feedback, and why? Based on your many iterations of your argument throughout this thread is that through 'common courtesy' (or whatever other excuse that you want) you are owed gratitude for your toil, which you claim is a gift, yet still want something back in return. And since you keep talking in circles, I'll come around and explain again that the definition of a gift is an offering with no expectation of returns whatsoever, a definition that you yourself has even agreed to above, yet you don't understand.

That disappointment that you have with the lack of feedback means that you expected feedback when you posted your work and that little string which you have attached to your work is the expectation of return that makes your story not a gift. You are posting a contract, yet you are not soliciting the contract. Effectively what you are doing is putting a kitten next to a sign that says 'free kitten' and then coming back an hour later to see the kitten gone and getting upset that no one left you a cookie. Well, you never asked for anything let alone a cookie, so your disappointment is all on you. Your disappointment has nothing to do with common courtesy or the culture of the site or anything or anyone else, just simply your own misplaced expectations. You can't deny this since you are on record stating how you wish the culture would change so that you could be happier with your experience here. That is your expectation, which makes your story offerings here contracts, not gifts.

I'd like you to do an experiment. Stop giving anyone gifts for Christmas or birthdays. If anyone asks why explain that all of their Christmas and birthday gifts to you were freely given gifts, not contracts, so it shouldn't matter what you do. Let us know how many Christmas or birthday gifts you get the next time.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

I'd like you to do an experiment. Stop giving anyone gifts for Christmas or birthdays. If anyone asks why explain that all of their Christmas and birthday gifts to you were freely given gifts, not contracts, so it shouldn't matter what you do. Let us know how many Christmas or birthday gifts you get the next time.

Don't waste your time with her. I'm certainly not going to.

 

[gunhilltrain]

I'd like you to do an experiment. Stop giving anyone gifts for Christmas or birthdays. If anyone asks why explain that all of their Christmas and birthday gifts to you were freely given gifts, not contracts, so it shouldn't matter what you do. Let us know how many Christmas or birthday gifts you get the next time.

I'm a little late in jumping in on this:

Giving gifts to adults is really not that important, unless you have some inspiration. In my case, almost everybody I know has either passed (died, in other words), divorced me, or just doesn't know me any longer. For my sister and my two adult children, I will create my own "cards" (Word files) for holidays and birthdays, and email those. For New Year's, I just added a photo from online that showed New Year's Eve in Times Square around 1938 or something, and sent that to everybody. Try finding that at Hallmark.

 

[cheeksarerosy]

You might take a look at it again. "Slow burn" and "repetitive" aren't the same thing. If you are repeating stuff over and over again, the problem is not a slow buildup, it's needlessly repeating verbiage that was already provided. That, indeed, isn't very good in writing.

So I think that's the sticking point. It was definitely not repeated verbiage, but if a reader is skimming and just looking for wild fucking every second, you'd miss a lot. Even then, it was not repetitive - while the story followed a certain pattern (meeting someone, being with them for three months, moving on - again, a very long story) - the different people he met and different ways in which he interacted were - in fact - quite different.

There was going to be more of what he had deemed "repetition" but in reality was not...but I'm not going to even argue that point. I stand by the story.

The issue to me is that I was not prepared for how it would affect me to read the feedback, and discovered that I was not ready at this point to share the story. I may be sometime in the future. However, in the end I think that what the general user of this site is looking for is different from what this story has turned out to be. For now I'm going to keep it close to the vest and see if in the future there's a more appropriate venue for publication.