Honesty, loyalty and trust

IrisAlthea

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Recently there was a discussion among daughter and friends over tea and scones in our dining room. They were talking about whether you want people to be loyal and back you up whatever happens or if you want them to be honest and straight enough to tell you when you are being an idiot. I was invited to bring the very old persons perspective.
I was reminded of this by the monogamy thread on How to and thought about how we look at this with our choice in friends but also with partners.

So, do you want your friends to be loyal to a fault or should they be honest and straight with you even when it is uncomfortable?

Do you prefer to be straight with people when you don’t agree or do you back your friends by default?

What about your partner? Is it the same in an intimate relationship, with a significant other as with friends or do you require/offer more loyalty/honesty?

How does this relate to trust for you?
Is it honesty or loyalty that helps build trust for you or how does it work?
 
I think the two go hand in hand. I prefer honesty from all my relationships, whether they're friends or lovers.

Depending on the circumstances, the default position is loyalty for me. I will back you and support you, even if I think what you're doing is wrong or stupid - in public. In private I will tell you you're being a dumbass. In public, I will express honesty when it is appropriate.

I've always found that relationships work better when you express contrary thoughts in private, where you don't risk embarrassing your friends or partners, the exception is something safety/security related where you should speak up and say "no, that's dangerous" or "no, that's not the right thing to do".
 
Recently there was a discussion among daughter and friends over tea and scones in our dining room. They were talking about whether you want people to be loyal and back you up whatever happens or if you want them to be honest and straight enough to tell you when you are being an idiot. I was invited to bring the very old persons perspective.
I was reminded of this by the monogamy thread on How to and thought about how we look at this with our choice in friends but also with partners.

So, do you want your friends to be loyal to a fault or should they be honest and straight with you even when it is uncomfortable?

Do you prefer to be straight with people when you don’t agree or do you back your friends by default?

What about your partner? Is it the same in an intimate relationship, with a significant other as with friends or do you require/offer more loyalty/honesty?

How does this relate to trust for you?
Is it honesty or loyalty that helps build trust for you or how does it work?


It depends. Which version do you want cause it all applies in different situations.
I was in the military for just under 23 years deployed 12 times. In that context loyal to a fault is just fine.

10 years later in civilian life.
I don’t have many friends I think people use that word to loosely. I have acquaintances and buddies. I want them to tell it how they see it. Trust and loyalty don’t play a factor in it. When you get to know a person you can trust in the fact that they will act how their character is. Some people gossip, that’s just how they are, so, if you tell them your business, you can trust in the fact that they will probably tell somebody else. You can still be friends with that person just don’t be telling them the business you don’t want no one else to know. most people are loyal to themselves.

My Wive is my partner for life. She is loyal to a fault and she’ll bite too. But will shoot me straight privately. I trust her implicitly. Trust is very important. A relationship isn’t a tangible item. You don’t get something. The only thing I can really give my wife is the bond of trust, loyalty and honesty To “our agreed upon relationship.” I added that last part because there are differences in peoples relationships.

This is for in general.
 
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I want a person to be loyal and supportive, unless I ask for honesty. A lot of times, I know I'm being ridiculous, but I want understanding, anyway. In that case, I don't have to be told I'm being ridiculous. But there are times when I'm not sure if I'm being ridiculous, and then I'll ask, and I want them to be honest.

I have had to deal with a lot of criticism in my life under the guise of a person "just being honest," and I'd rather you just not. Being loyal and supportive means a lot more to me. My friends and Daddy both know this, so that works out pretty well. But I'm also fairly self-aware, too, so I can usually tell when I'm being extra, and I don't necessarily need to be told, lol.

ETA: Realized I didn't answer all the questions.

I can trust someone a lot more when I know they will be careful with me. This means saving the "brutal honesty" for when it's requested.
 
I feel like anyone who sees honesty as contrary to loyalty can't handle the truth.

https://i.imgflip.com/qmd3x.jpg

Haha, this is so funny, because I had ”You can’t handle the truth!” In Jack Nicholsobs voice, ringing somewhere in the back of my mind, both when talking to the kids and when writing the OP.

I’ll come back later and expand on my view, when I’ve a little more time.
 
My friends I trust to be loyal and the best test for that is their being honest - cleaver honesty if required. It was the same way when I was in uniform, where I would introduce myself to each new team member by telling them that I expected to make mistakes and insisting that while I would make the final decision, it was their job to help keep me from making stupid mistakes.
 
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I generally prefer both friends and partners to be honest and straight forward with me and I tend to agree with people based on what I think is right rather than based on friendship and affilation.
It is not always super popular.

I do however agree with @Paul_Chance and @Goldenfinger that there are times and places when it is better to save any disagreement until later. In some situations or environments it’s a question of safety.

It was the same way when I was in uniform, where I would introduce myself to each new team member by telling them that I expected to make mistakes and insisting that while I would make the final decisipmk, it was there job to keep my from being too stupid,

I think this is good leadership in general but even there, there are situations when you need to save questions and arguments for later, unless the stupid is truly catastrophic and will be beyond repair later.

I have had to deal with a lot of criticism in my life under the guise of a person "just being honest," and I'd rather you just not

This hits very close to home for me, because I grew up with a father who has a great talent for finding fault and who was great at letting the finger pass the lines of perfect grades, to pause at the slightly lower one, for example.
I also seem to have inherited that talent and while it can be useful, I’ve spent a lot of time working on being as good at finding the highlights, working on being in control of when, how and if the things in my mind get put out there as feed back and questioning my motivations.

Being loyal and supportive means a lot more to me.

When it comes to being on the receiving end, I still do prefer people to be honest and critical is actually fine. It’s only when I feel that someone actively tries to tear me down, that I back away.
I don’t want to have to guess how the people close to me feel about me or fear finding out later that they had issues with me or what I do but let it fester rather than speak up.

Trust for me has to do with consistensy over time, because then I feel that I know where I stand with you and it is rather specific based on our relationship.
Some people I trust to be good company on a night out, others I trust to give me honest feed back and yet others to come back me up when life gets difficult some way.
 
I don’t think the two are mutually exclusive. It’s trite to say it’s situational, but I think the answer is: it depends.
Loyalty: I’m a loyal person to my best friends. “Got ur six.” Was a term in the army… got ur back. Goldenfinger mentioned military loyalty and it’s an absolute extreme. (But effective for molding a military unit.)

As an aside, there were people in my unit that you’d never like in civilian life… people whose views were diametrically opposed to yours, yet you knew they had your back and you had theirs. That’s the way it was. A different type of loyalty, I suppose.

Only my closest and oldest friends and my immediate fam get that kind of loyalty.

Honesty: I tend to be indirect, but I will tell you when you’re out of line, or acting a fool. I typically will offer a different or personal perspective. I don’t mind being honest with others, but I am typically private and somewhat indirect with feedback. Except to my children…and even with them, I am even less direct with them now.

I think you can be both, and certain situations call for different behaviors.
 
Two more thoughts on honesty:

As @MaggieTheUnicorn says - I think there is a big difference between saying one thing in public and then another thing in private. That would also lead me to question which was the honest answer. What I meant in my early post is to reserve an opinion in public when it's contrary to what your friend or partner is expressing or expressing generic support and then bring the subject up in private for a deeper discussion. Getting undercut by a friend or lover in public can be an embarrassing sting.

The claim of "I'm just honest" can be, and often is, used as a cover for abusive actions, so I am immediately cautious when a person does it - it's a lot in the circumstances and the delivery and the patterns that develop.
 
I think most people believe in honesty, loyalty, and trust. But actions usually show beliefs. Human relationships are pretty frail.
 
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