The suspension of disbelief paradox in erotic fiction

[Bramblethorn]

A couple of small questions prompted by certain comments on this thread: is there a rule on this forum (which I, for one, haven't noticed) requiring any participant to have "published" (!) material on Literotica? If not, perhaps there's a lesser rule stating that people who have chosen not to do so may be treated as some kind of lesser mortal and their comments as automatically of inferior value? Just wondering.

There is no such rule. Everybody here is completely at liberty to choose who they do and don't take seriously.

 

[8letters]

Maybe I've lived a sheltered life, but for most of my own life, I had no idea of how to judge a woman's bra size. I figured that it only was something women needed to know when actually purchasing a bra, and that was about it.

I think a lot of writers are wanting to get across the size of a woman's breasts in a more "technical" way than small, average or big. They think "I checked out her c-cup sized tits" is better than "I checked out her above-average sized tits". Having written for a while, I know that giving a vague description is better as the reader has more latitude in picturing the woman. Sometimes, people will leave a comment mentioning who they think my main female character looks like, and almost always it's someone that looks nothing like how I picture the MFC, typically with much bigger breasts than what I thought I was describing.

 

[8letters]

A couple of small questions prompted by certain comments on this thread: is there a rule on this forum (which I, for one, haven't noticed) requiring any participant to have "published" (!) material on Literotica? If not, perhaps there's a lesser rule stating that people who have chosen not to do so may be treated as some kind of lesser mortal and their comments as automatically of inferior value? Just wondering.

Sadly, I've had bosses who thought what I did must be easy because they had no idea of what I actually did. I've seen that attitude expressed many times in many places. Regularly, someone will come to the forums and lecture us authors on how to write or think about writing when they haven't published a story here. I see it as the same "ignorance makes you think it's easy" attitude.

You don't have to be an author to post here, but you almost have to have published a story here to meaningfully engage in many of the discussions.

 

[MelissaBaby]

There is no such rule. Everybody here is completely at liberty to choose who they do and don't take seriously.

I see that you have been nominated for an annual award. Don’t you think you owe an apology to those you have offended by deliberately submitting such a high quality story?

 

[Bramblethorn]

Sadly, I've had bosses who thought what I did must be easy because they had no idea of what I actually did. I've seen that attitude expressed many times in many places. Regularly, someone will come to the forums and lecture us authors on how to write or think about writing when they haven't published a story here. I see it as the same "ignorance makes you think it's easy" attitude.

You don't have to be an author to post here, but you almost have to be published a story here to meaningfully engage in many of the discussions.

A while back I got into conversation with a researcher who was studying themes in online erotica. He and some grad students had read hundreds of Literotica stories and counted how often certain themes appeared, and he sent me his findings.

One of the things he noticed was that despite the presence of a non-consent category, authors were very reluctant to write stories where the victims were badly harmed, and that they preferred to give the victims some kind of happy ending. From this he drew the conclusion that there was very little interest from authors in writing the darker kind of NC. IIRC he'd already published it.

I wrote back: "Did you know that's a content rule on Literotica? Stories that don't go like that don't get through moderation."

"No, I didn't. Shit." And I never heard from him again.

Had he talked to one single author here about the research he was doing before he started, they could have told him about that rule and saved him from completely misunderstanding what was going on.

 

[LiverpoolMaster]

There is no such rule. Everybody here is completely at liberty to choose who they do and don't take seriously.

Really? One could be forgiven for having formed the contrary impression.

 

[tenyari]

A couple friends of mine do sexuality research. Apparently if a man hasn't had any form of same-sex encounter by age 18, or 21 at the most (that's a very vague category, often just ogling then wanking afterwards), it's extremely rare for him to have one later in life. Whereas women have often never considered a woman yet may suddenly think about it and give it a try in their forties, fifties, sixties...

An issue of social engineering perhaps?

Media, especially erotica and porn, even when designed for a heterosexual and usually 'male gaze centered' audience is full of bisexual and lesbian women to the point that it's essentially promoted as the norm. Whereas bisexual and gay men are not that commonly seen outside of media for that niche.

 

[tenyari]

Maybe I've lived a sheltered life, but for most of my own life, I had no idea of how to judge a woman's bra size. I figured that it only was something women needed to know when actually purchasing a bra, and that was about it.

What gets me in stories is what I call a "driveBy Breast Exam".

"There I was on the freeway doing 75mph headed to LA in my very low low-rider, almost hugging the ground when a woman in a tinted windows 18-wheeler drove by on the opposite lane 100 yards away with perfect 28DD breasts that had rock hard nipples under her thick parka."

Um... yeah...

That example is of course the extreme of absurd to over-state the point. But in so many stories I just have this image that the male characters are running around with tape measures and 'surveying equipment'. I likely have a few cases of it myself in some older writing where I was trying to follow examples from other authors - thinking men needed that to get turned on by my story.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Really? One could be forgiven for having formed the contrary impression.

There's an attitude that comes across, from time to time, with people who suddenly arrive in the Author's Hangout, and proceed to describe the regulars as "forum Gestapo" (within what? three or four posts?) and basically misguided in other ways, when it comes down to writing.

We're tribal, sure, but when someone comes in and pontificates, there's a bit of an expectation that they show some sort of qualification for their views. We all have, by putting our own writing out there. So when someone has no presence on Lit other than belligerence, one comes to a conclusion fairly quickly. Think of us as mother cats, and we're all each other's kittens.

Then there are others who choose to join this community with a little more subtlety; they join gently, they learn who people are, they get to know the personalities, they reveal their own, they're embraced. And over time, people stay or people go.

As I say, it comes down to their attitude, as to how they're received, how they join in.

 

[EarlyMorningLight]

There's an attitude that comes across, from time to time, with people who suddenly arrive in the Author's Hangout, and proceed to describe the regulars as "forum Gestapo" (within what? three or four posts?) and basically misguided in other ways, when it comes down to writing.

We're tribal, sure, but when someone comes in and pontificates, there's a bit of an expectation that they show some sort of qualification for their views. We all have, by putting our own writing out there. So when someone has no presence on Lit other than belligerence, one comes to a conclusion fairly quickly. Think of us as mother cats, and we're all each other's kittens.

Then there are others who choose to join this community with a little more subtlety; they join gently, they learn who people are, they get to know the personalities, they reveal their own, they're embraced. And over time, people stay or people go.

As I say, it comes down to their attitude, as to how they're received, how they join in.

I’m still very new and overall I’ve found this to be an incredibly welcoming space.

 

[Bramblethorn]

A couple friends of mine do sexuality research. Apparently if a man hasn't had any form of same-sex encounter by age 18, or 21 at the most (that's a very vague category, often just ogling then wanking afterwards), it's extremely rare for him to have one later in life. Whereas women have often never considered a woman yet may suddenly think about it and give it a try in their forties, fifties, sixties...

An issue of social engineering perhaps?

Media, especially erotica and porn, even when designed for a heterosexual and usually 'male gaze centered' audience is full of bisexual and lesbian women to the point that it's essentially promoted as the norm. Whereas bisexual and gay men are not that commonly seen outside of media for that niche.

I agree that mainstream porn audiences are much more receptive to girl-on-girl than guy-on-guy, and the content reflects that.

But I wonder how influential that's likely to be on the kind of female sexuality that KQ mentioned. Does a fifty-year-old woman really watch two twenty-year-old porn actresses performing for the male gaze (often as prelude to a FMF threesome) and think, yep, I'm going to try dating women?

 

[gunhilltrain]

What gets me in stories is what I call a "driveBy Breast Exam".

"There I was on the freeway doing 75mph headed to LA in my very low low-rider, almost hugging the ground when a woman in a tinted windows 18-wheeler drove by on the opposite lane 100 yards away with perfect 28DD breasts that had rock hard nipples under her thick parka."

Um... yeah...

That example is of course the extreme of absurd to over-state the point. But in so many stories I just have this image that the male characters are running around with tape measures and 'surveying equipment'. I likely have a few cases of it myself in some older writing where I was trying to follow examples from other authors - thinking men needed that to get turned on by my story.

I don't remember anybody, in either conversations or writing, using that specific terminology thirty or forty years ago. Now that I think about it, it probably originated in porn, but as I implied I was pretty ignorant about that until the Internet was invented.

The urban equivalent would be, "There I was on the B train local headed for 145th Street when a woman on a southbound A express passed in the opposite direction . . ."

 

[gunhilltrain]

A while back I got into conversation with a researcher who was studying themes in online erotica. He and some grad students had read hundreds of Literotica stories and counted how often certain themes appeared, and he sent me his findings.

One of the things he noticed was that despite the presence of a non-consent category, authors were very reluctant to write stories where the victims were badly harmed, and that they preferred to give the victims some kind of happy ending. From this he drew the conclusion that there was very little interest from authors in writing the darker kind of NC. IIRC he'd already published it.

I wrote back: "Did you know that's a content rule on Literotica? Stories that don't go like that don't get through moderation."

"No, I didn't. Shit." And I never heard from him again.

Had he talked to one single author here about the research he was doing before he started, they could have told him about that rule and saved him from completely misunderstanding what was going on.

I think the only unhappy endings I've written involve break-ups, usually in a series or a sequel rather than a stand-alone story. And some people are indeed bothered by those, especially if those are in the Romance category. Loving Wives is just the opposite, of course, and those people don't care much for reconciliations.

 

[tenyari]

I don't remember anybody, in either conversations or writing, using that specific terminology thirty or forty years ago. Now that I think about it, it probably originated in porn, but as I implied I was pretty ignorant about that until the Internet was invented.

Yeah it's just my own mental way of thinking about the concept when I read some detailed measurements that a character gives on seeing a woman for the first time.

Like... I WISH I had vision that good, my job used to be making precise measurements for the military and if I could have instantly measured everyone's anatomy from a 3 second glance at 1000 meters during a firefight in the middle of a blizzard while walking up hill BOTH WAYS... I'd be a general by now.

Which I guess explains why I keep landing on stories where some guy who's a retired soldier lands on a strange new world and gathers up a harem of women and conquers all the locals. It's that super-human vision.

 

[tenyari]

Does a fifty-year-old woman really watch two twenty-year-old porn actresses performing for the male gaze (often as prelude to a FMF threesome) and think, yep, I'm going to try dating women?

When I was a kid, my high school sex ed teacher said human sexuality was a bell curve, and our nature was to be bi-sexual. Something like only a small number existed at the edges of purely heterosexual or homosexual. Social conditioning then pushed the curve one way or another. I'm not sure I fully buy that (I'm not convinced the norm is the exact middle like my teacher was), but I think it's partially right. I have absolutely no idea where my teacher got that idea though.

I do think that if you're ALREADY mildly curious, seeing some other people having a lot of fun without others being negative on them for it can get you more curious.

But I am no expert in this subject at all.

 

[SimonDoom]

Does a fifty-year-old woman really watch two twenty-year-old porn actresses performing for the male gaze (often as prelude to a FMF threesome) and think, yep, I'm going to try dating women?

Sounds like a good story challenge for you!

 

[LilyWaters]

Plus, Shakespeare wrote quite a bummer there, didn't he>

A story about female thwarted desires might be The Haunting. The novel is not overt, but there is a scene where Eleanor definitely makes a move on Luke, although, through their mutual ineptitude, the plan falls apart in a few minutes.

There is also something going on between Eleanor and Theodora, although they mostly talk around it. At one point Eleanor wants to ask her, do you love me? but she can't bring herself to do it.

In the awful 1999 movie version, Theodora openly brags about being bi-sexual, but then there is never a follow-up.

Anyway, I might call the novel anti-erotic, if there is such a thing.

Eleanor also seems to have a thing for Dr. Montague at different points in that novel. That book is such a masterpiece of atmosphere and subversion of expectation.

 

[Bramblethorn]

There's an attitude that comes across, from time to time, with people who suddenly arrive in the Author's Hangout, and proceed to describe the regulars as "forum Gestapo" (within what? three or four posts?) and basically misguided in other ways, when it comes down to writing.

We're tribal, sure, but when someone comes in and pontificates, there's a bit of an expectation that they show some sort of qualification for their views. We all have, by putting our own writing out there. So when someone has no presence on Lit other than belligerence, one comes to a conclusion fairly quickly. Think of us as mother cats, and we're all each other's kittens.

Similar thoughts, but I might put it in terms of sincerity rather than qualification.

This is the "Authors' Hangout". As the name suggests, it's mostly populated by Literotica authors and used as a place to hang out, discussing writing and doing general social chit-chat.

If somebody shows up here and they've already written stories for Literotica or they mention they're doing so, it's easy to believe that they're here to talk writing or to hang out socially with other writers. They might not be "qualified" to give advice on writing, their ideas and stories might be terrible, but at least they're intending to use this place for something like its generally accepted purpose.

If they show up here with no apparent interest in writing stories and their attitude suggests they're not looking to make friends, then by a process of elimination it's hard to avoid suspecting that they might be here just to wave their dicks around and generally start shit.

(Not that Real Literotica Authors don't also wave their dicks around and start shit, from time to time. There's more than a little of that. But there are very few who are here just for that.)

 

[ElectricBlue]

Similar thoughts, but I might put it in terms of sincerity rather than qualification.

Agree your better choice of terms. I think I meant by "qualifications" at least words on a page upon which to make a fair judgement of ability, or to assess the foundation of a soap-box - putting their money where their mouth is, in other words.

 

[SimonDoom]

I’m still very new and overall I’ve found this to be an incredibly welcoming space.

I'm glad. That was my experience, for the most part, when I joined the forum after publishing my first story over 5 years ago.

People to some extent see what they come ready to see. People who think that everybody here is high-and-mighty and judgmental are often those who come to this forum with a judgmental and critical attitude, which often isn't supported by authority, experience, evidence, or respect for what people here are doing. it's not surprising that they get a bad reception that then reinforces the bad attitude they brought here in the first place.

 

[LiverpoolMaster]

A whole lot of ultra-defensive stuff going on here, an unbiased, third-party observer might say. Looks to me like the "tribe" that was mentioned has had its skin pricked.

On investigation there is, as I suspected, NO requirement whatsoever to be "published" here to be allowed to be a forum contributor - but there does seem to be an unwritten one to the effect that anyone so doing is only permitted to make ingratiating or sycophantic comments or it will go the worse for them. The idea that comments which carry criticism are not to be considered in a logical, detached manner - or even entertained in the first place - unless you are "a paid-up member of the gang", is indeed one of the hallmarks of dictatorial intolerance. Gestapo, as was said, if perhaps exaggeratedly for the sake of illustration.

This sort of hands-over-ears, closing ranks attitude brings its own comeuppance eventually. Inability to listen to and consider ALL views without jeering and name calling leads to a skewed take on reality and a false assessment of, for example, just what merit your own work really has. I'm sure Putin has loads of people telling him right now what a fine job he's doing.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

I agree that mainstream porn audiences are much more receptive to girl-on-girl than guy-on-guy, and the content reflects that.

But I wonder how influential that's likely to be on the kind of female sexuality that KQ mentioned. Does a fifty-year-old woman really watch two twenty-year-old porn actresses performing for the male gaze (often as prelude to a FMF threesome) and think, yep, I'm going to try dating women?

I think it's much more that said 50-yo-woman, perhaps newly divorced or widowed, looks at her close friends, valuing personality over looks, realised one is looking back more than might have been expected, and goes along with it.

With men, I don't know. I didn't ask what proportion of men have had a same-sex experience by 21, and certainly my friends would be outliers. The media may be a factor in men of 50 continuing to seek a partner who meets certain standards of looks rather than focusing on personality by that age, but hard to say which drives the other.

Sexuality as admitted and practised is more of a bimodal distribution (peaks at Kinsey 0 and 6, but long tails) but if you record separate numbers for attraction to looks, attraction to personality, having sex with that sex, having relationships with that sex, you often get four very different numbers from one person. Add past activity and hoped-for future and you get more variation - this is the Klein Grid, which Fritz Klein fondly hoped would lead to people meeting and reciting their 7-digit number to the other. It didn't catch on, other than to demonstrate that sexuality is well complicated.

"Authors' Hangout"... I wonder what that first word means...

 

[gunhilltrain]

Eleanor also seems to have a thing for Dr. Montague at different points in that novel. That book is such a masterpiece of atmosphere and subversion of expectation.

In the novel, she has some kind of "open" interest in Luke but that fails, and she seems to have a stronger but hidden interest in Theodora. At one point she even asks to move in with Theo after they leave Hill House, but she is rudely rebuffed.

I think you mean the 1999 movie where the Professor (Liam Neeson) is far younger than the version in the book. In the novel he's in his sixties and nearing retirement. I don't remember what her view in the 1963 movie was. In that, the Professor is played by Richard Johnson, who was a mature but still youthful thirty-six at that time. His wife Grace shows up at the house later - Lois Maxwell, who was also thirty-six then.

 

[EarlyMorningLight]

A whole lot of ultra-defensive stuff going on here, an unbiased, third-party observer might say. Looks to me like the "tribe" that was mentioned has had its skin pricked.

On investigation there is, as I suspected, NO requirement whatsoever to be "published" here to be allowed to be a forum contributor - but there does seem to be an unwritten one to the effect that anyone so doing is only permitted to make ingratiating or sycophantic comments or it will go the worse for them. The idea that comments which carry criticism are not to be considered in a logical, detached manner - or even entertained in the first place - unless you are "a paid-up member of the gang", is indeed one of the hallmarks of dictatorial intolerance. Gestapo, as was said, if perhaps exaggeratedly for the sake of illustration.

This sort of hands-over-ears, closing ranks attitude brings its own comeuppance eventually. Inability to listen to and consider ALL views without jeering and name calling leads to a skewed take on reality and a false assessment of, for example, just what merit your own work really has. I'm sure Putin has loads of people telling him right now what a fine job he's doing.

Gestapo and Putin in the same comment. That’s my bingo card done.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Gestapo and Putin in the same comment. That’s my bingo card done.

He (?) needs at least a third name to truly get the bingo card done. Pol Pot, Stalin, and Pinochet are candidates. Putin is minor league compared to those guys, especially the first two.