The suspension of disbelief paradox in erotic fiction

[SimonDoom]

Er... it strikes me that you're confusing two concepts:

readers (people who want to be entertained by a story which has inherent credibility and has been skilfully crafted so as to capture their imagination)

and

wank merchants (wank merchants)

The post you were commenting on, I'd guess wildly, was referring to the former - but there will indeed be almost "infinite variation" if you're willing to extend the label to the latter. Just be careful, as you're performing said extension, that you don't slip in the accumulated drool or trip over the hanging-out tongues.

No, I don't see it that way. I don't see them as two different categories. It's mostly in the eye of the beholder. I'm not one of those "Is it art or is it porn?" types because I think it's a pointless, silly conversation. A story can be both.

I write stories I like to write. I don't concern myself with whether some might think I'm a wank merchant. To some people, I probably am, and I'm OK with that. Wank away!

I think there's a near-infinite variety of readers of the first sort that you mentioned, along with an infinite variety of wank merchants, whatever they are.

 

[MelissaBaby]

No, I don't see it that way. I don't see them as two different categories. It's mostly in the eye of the beholder. I'm not one of those "Is it art or is it porn?" types because I think it's a pointless, silly conversation. A story can be both.

I write stories I like to write. I don't concern myself with whether some might think I'm a wank merchant. To some people, I probably am, and I'm OK with that. Wank away!

I think there's a near-infinite variety of readers of the first sort that you mentioned, along with an infinite variety of wank merchants, whatever they are.

I have said before that I might have the lowest wank per word ratio on Lit. Nonetheless, it is very common for me to get comments like "I usually just look for jerk off material, but I really enjoyed your story."

 

[SimonDoom]

I have said before that I might have the lowest wank per word ratio on Lit. Nonetheless, it is very common for me to get comments like "I usually just look for jerk off material, but I really enjoyed your story."

MB, your success is proof that Literotica readers aren't quite the wank-driven cavemen that some people think they are. Which is not to say that your stories don't have their wankish qualities, as well.

 

[LiverpoolMaster]

MB, your success is proof that Literotica readers aren't quite the wank-driven cavemen that some people think they are. Which is not to say that your stories don't have their wankish qualities, as well.

Keep trying by all means - maybe you'll succeed in persuading yourself that Lit. consumers "aren't quite the wank-driven caveman" that they patently are in the vast majority - but, when push comes to shove, "cavemen" don't read. Their cultural needs are small. They'd be too busy throwing any book on the fire to keep warm while they wank.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Keep trying by all means - maybe you'll succeed in persuading yourself that Lit. consumers "aren't quite the wank-driven caveman" that they patently are in the vast majority - but, when push comes to shove, "cavemen" don't read. Their cultural needs are small. They'd be too busy throwing any book on the fire to keep warm while they wank.

I think I might have been collaterally insulted here, but the comment is not really comprehensible, so I'm not sure.

 

[SimonDoom]

I think I might have been collaterally insulted here, but the comment is not really comprehensible, so I'm not sure.

I had a little trouble figuring it out, too, and thought about responding, but chose not to. But I hope you know I wasn't insulting you. You are an example of an author whose work I admire a lot even though our approaches to writing erotica are quite different. It's part of what I like about this site.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I had a little trouble figuring it out, too, and thought about responding, but chose not to. But I hope you know I wasn't insulting you. You are an example of an author whose work I admire a lot even though our approaches to writing erotica are quite different. It's part of what I like about this site.

I took your comment as entirely complimentary. I'm not sure about Liverpool Master's.

This site is international. The readership crosses cultural, gender and generational lines. Why would anyone think there is a no room for a multitude of styles and approaches?

 

[EarlyMorningLight]

MB, your success is proof that Literotica readers aren't quite the wank-driven cavemen that some people think they are. Which is not to say that your stories don't have their wankish qualities, as well.

I’m willing to admit that I’m in the minority, but I read across nearly every genre on the site. If the writing is good, I’m there, even if the sex doesn’t match with my normal proclivities. Well written characters, compelling stories, and sex that doesn’t lean on lazy cliches, are all turn ons. It might help that my sexuality doesn’t fit into a single neat box, but even in my short time here, I have come across other writers and readers who are after more than a quick stroke.

 

[8letters]

When you've been around here long enough and written a broad enough range of stories, you can observe patterns in reader responses. You're right about that. But you can make mistakes about those patterns, too.

For instance, I agree that many incest readers are picky. They like their incest to be sweet and romantic. They have no problem with Mom getting it on with Son, but God Forbid he should stick his finger up her butt or put handcuffs on her. But that's not true of all readers.

The most misunderstood category is Loving Wives. Because, while it's true that there's a big incel contingent, and a big contingent of readers that for reasons I don't understand want to see women punished, there are also plenty of readers who like cuckold, hot wife stories, the type of stories for which the category was created in the first place. People overlook this fact because of all the downvoting and nasty comments. But those readers are there, and if you write for them you will get praise from them, although you'll have to put up the vile incel crap.

The bottom line is it's a big, big site and there are readers out there for almost every kind of taste. I don't write for "typical" readers. I write for "me" readers. That seems to work OK.

I look at as clustering of issues. If you are a Republican, you tend to support a cluster of issues that aren't terribly related, and the same for Democrats. There are pro-choice Republicans and pro-life Democrats, but not a lot of them. College football fans skew heavily Republican, and WWE fans skew heavily Democrat. If you're looking for a strong positive reaction, you should write with an idea of the cluster of issues for the readers of that category. There are I/T readers who like it when the mother is handcuffed and her son sticks his finger up her butt, but there's not a lot of them. There's an audience here for any kind of story, but that audience may be very small and dwarfed by the size of the audience in the category you posted in who hates the kind of story you wrote.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I have said before that I might have the lowest wank per word ratio on Lit. Nonetheless, it is very common for me to get comments like "I usually just look for jerk off material, but I really enjoyed your story."

I'll fight you for that title ;-)

Like Melissa, I write stuff with a fairly low ratio of sex to story. I like to think I challenge my readers to see the world in new ways, and some of my comments/feedback suggest to me that I do okay at that. In my experience, there's a big chunk of the readership who are interested in that kind of thing.

But also:

• This is an erotica site.
• Of course there's a good percentage (though definitely not 100%) of people coming here primarily for wank material.
  • seriously what on earth did you expect?
• There's absolutely nothing wrong with coming here for the orgasms.
• There is something wrong with coming here to sneer at the people who are here for the wank material. It just comes across as snobbish and sad. If you're offended by the idea of people wanking, perhaps this isn't the site for you?

 

[Duleigh]

How do you make a certain outcome feel natural? How do you judge veracity at key moments where people could make a whole range of decisions other than the one that leads them to the outcome that both the writer and the reader desire? What’s the margin of error for suspension of disbelief?

Make an emotional connection. Simple as that.
We can't say who we will fall in love with, you can build tension having a character fighting that love because the other character is too (fill in the blank) and in the end they discover that it was meaningless, they were meant to come together.

 

[000zing]

• There is something wrong with coming here to sneer at the people who are here for the wank material. It just comes across as snobbish and sad. If you're offended by the idea of people wanking, perhaps this isn't the site for you?

Or... or... perhaps the "sneering" and "snobbery" are totally in the eye of the partisan beholder?

Worse still, could they even be on the part of those who hold more than a slight objection to the true nature of this place and its clientele being occasionally recalled to mind? You know: an opposition to any bringing of airy-fairy discussions, as if they were addressing high moral issues and profound philosophical principles, down to where they belong?

Could just be that's what's wrong and sad to "come here to do".

Blinkers off. Get real. Let's not delude ourselves. This is not a literary site in any meaningful sense of the word, much as though we'd all like to think that what's produced are timeless, undying masterpieces. Half of the "authors" cannot spell and have the vocabulary of a ten year old. People here, in the huge majority, are reading and producing wank fodder. End of. No, you shouldn't get offended by it... but then neither should you object to being reminded about it.

As far as I can see, that's all that was being stated and there's no need to take any kind of personal offence at the reminder being given. It's not the first time that I've detected a reluctance in people to admit to themselves just what kind of site Lit. is. It's as if they're keen to get involved in the smut on the one hand, but on the other wish folk would consider them as being somehow above it and here for some more rarefied purpose.

 

[EarlyMorningLight]

Or... or... perhaps the "sneering" and "snobbery" are totally in the eye of the partisan beholder?

Worse still, could they even be on the part of those who hold more than a slight objection to the true nature of this place and its clientele being occasionally recalled to mind? You know: an opposition to any bringing of airy-fairy discussions, as if they were addressing high moral issues and profound philosophical principles, down to where they belong?

Could just be that's what's wrong and sad to "come here to do".

Blinkers off. Get real. Let's not delude ourselves. This is not a literary site in any meaningful sense of the word, much as though we'd all like to think that what's produced are timeless, undying masterpieces. Half of the "authors" cannot spell and have the vocabulary of a ten year old. People here, in the huge majority, are reading and producing wank fodder. End of. No, you shouldn't get offended by it... but then neither should you object to being reminded about it.

As far as I can see, that's all that was being stated and there's no need to take any kind of personal offence at the reminder being given. It's not the first time that I've detected a reluctance in people to admit to themselves just what kind of site Lit. is. It's as if they're keen to get involved in the smut on the one hand, but on the other wish folk would consider them as being somehow above it and here for some more rarefied purpose.

Why does it have to be one thing or the other? There are some absolutely stunning writers who publish here. There’s also a lot of straight up fantasy fulfillment wank fodder. There are writers here with literary pretensions who are unreadable, and people who are only in it to write stroke stories who end up being really compelling and entertaining.

I started this thread to talk about a specific aspect of craft, for the people for whom that aspect of craft is important to their own efforts as writers. I find it interesting that so many commenters are frothing to turn into a pissing contest about how smart they are, or the degree to which they have the REAL understanding of the authorship and readership here.

 

[SimonDoom]

Or... or... perhaps the "sneering" and "snobbery" are totally in the eye of the partisan beholder?

Worse still, could they even be on the part of those who hold more than a slight objection to the true nature of this place and its clientele being occasionally recalled to mind? You know: an opposition to any bringing of airy-fairy discussions, as if they were addressing high moral issues and profound philosophical principles, down to where they belong?

I just don't understand this either/or sort of thinking.

Yes, it's true that much of the story content here is for "wanking." But not all of it is, and some of the wank material is quite good.

Why is there anything wrong with having intelligent discussions about writing in the context of erotic stories? There's nothing wrong with it. What should we be talking about? The best kinds of tissue paper and lubricants?

Discussions of the sort started by this thread are interesting in their own right and quite helpful to many of us.

 

[MelissaBaby]

People complain that Netflix has too many superhero movies, while there are thousands of indies, foreign films, Hollywood classics etc. to choose from if they just scroll a little bit.

Same vibe.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Or... or... perhaps the "sneering" and "snobbery" are totally in the eye of the partisan beholder?

Worse still, could they even be on the part of those who hold more than a slight objection to the true nature of this place and its clientele being occasionally recalled to mind? You know: an opposition to any bringing of airy-fairy discussions, as if they were addressing high moral issues and profound philosophical principles, down to where they belong?

Could just be that's what's wrong and sad to "come here to do".

Blinkers off. Get real. Let's not delude ourselves. This is not a literary site in any meaningful sense of the word, much as though we'd all like to think that what's produced are timeless, undying masterpieces. Half of the "authors" cannot spell and have the vocabulary of a ten year old. People here, in the huge majority, are reading and producing wank fodder. End of. No, you shouldn't get offended by it... but then neither should you object to being reminded about it.

As far as I can see, that's all that was being stated and there's no need to take any kind of personal offence at the reminder being given. It's not the first time that I've detected a reluctance in people to admit to themselves just what kind of site Lit. is. It's as if they're keen to get involved in the smut on the one hand, but on the other wish folk would consider them as being somehow above it and here for some more rarefied purpose.

It's a big tent. If everyone who registers can publish, then the quality of the writing is going to vary a lot. Some of them may get better over time, which is a good thing.

I have one non-erotic story here and several non-erotic essays which have done pretty well. Thus I'm happy enough with the site. I'd probably have trouble getting them published in print. Like Harper's may have one short story and a few poems once per month. I probably couldn't compete against, say, T.C. Boyle for a slot.

Yes, it's likely, assuming that the writing is okay, that an erotic story with lots of sex, a romantic story with lots of romance (don't put a break-up story in that category!), and a horror story with lots of horror are going to do better than average here. I just accept that as the way it is.

 

[Magineer]

I just don't understand this either/or sort of thinking.

Yes, it's true that much of the story content here is for "wanking." But not all of it is, and some of the wank material is quite good.

Why is there anything wrong with having intelligent discussions about writing in the context of erotic stories? There's nothing wrong with it. What should we be talking about? The best kinds of tissue paper and lubricants?

Discussions of the sort started by this thread are interesting in their own right and quite helpful to many of us.

And I don't believe any contributor has actually suggested preventing such discussion. What seems to be objected to is the mere act of raising the issue of the nature of the site and its overwhelming population of wank material seekers/providers. As OOzing said, some of the participants in these discussions seem to have exaggerated/wishful thinking ideas of what the site is about and, by implication, their own status as exponents of 'literature'...

 

[LdyHoneybee]

I was somewhere and I heard these two women-- probably mothers-- talking.

"Is she still seeing Dean?"
"Oh yes, they are just like Romeo and Juliet."
"How romantic."

So...I'm just guessing that neither one actually saw the play.

The did. The just didn’t understand what it was about. Either that or they left at intermission.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Or... or... perhaps the "sneering" and "snobbery" are totally in the eye of the partisan beholder?

Worse still, could they even be on the part of those who hold more than a slight objection to the true nature of this place and its clientele being occasionally recalled to mind? You know: an opposition to any bringing of airy-fairy discussions, as if they were addressing high moral issues and profound philosophical principles, down to where they belong?

Could just be that's what's wrong and sad to "come here to do".

Blinkers off. Get real. Let's not delude ourselves. This is not a literary site in any meaningful sense of the word, much as though we'd all like to think that what's produced are timeless, undying masterpieces. Half of the "authors" cannot spell and have the vocabulary of a ten year old. People here, in the huge majority, are reading and producing wank fodder. End of. No, you shouldn't get offended by it... but then neither should you object to being reminded about it.

Where would we be without the brave speakers of truth?

What sort of shape would the world be in without heroes like yourself standing ready to take people down a peg when they're enjoying their hobby just a little too much?

It doesn't bear thinking about.

 

[MelissaBaby]

My experience here has not been that there are many complaints about there being too much "wanking" content, but rather, that there is an ongoing litany of complaints about stories that are not aimed toward the readers immediate gratification.

Just look through the boards. How common is it stated that "this is just a porn site," or "we are all here to get off" or something similar?

I write stories with sexual content, because I find it a fascinating subject. If my readers get off, that's great. If they enjoy the story and don't get off, that's fine too. Writing a good story is my goal, not inspiring people to get off. I've done that in real life, don't need to do it here.

I have no issues with writers that take other approaches, but I have been told multiple times that I don't belong here. Next week, I'll have been here five years, and I'm not going anywhere any time soon.

 

[000zing]

What "doesn't bear thinking about!" is possibly brave - but decidedly self-appointed - forum Gestapo parading around, apparently, as avuncular proponents of censorship. If being reminded of facts results in some feeling that they are a "peg" or two lower than anticipated, too bad. A little humility - not humiliation - can be good for the soul, even for the Gestapo among us.

 

[MelissaBaby]

What "doesn't bear thinking about!" is possibly brave - but decidedly self-appointed - forum Gestapo parading around, apparently, as avuncular proponents of censorship. If being reminded of facts results in some feeling that they are a "peg" or two lower than anticipated, too bad. A little humility - not humiliation - can be good for the soul, even for the Gestapo among us.

Can you tell me which posts advocated censorship?

 

[gunhilltrain]

My experience here has not been that there are many complaints about there being too much "wanking" content, but rather, that there is an ongoing litany of complaints about stories that are not aimed toward the readers immediate gratification.

Just look through the boards. How common is it stated that "this is just a porn site," or "we are all here to get off" or something similar?

I write stories with sexual content, because I find it a fascinating subject. If my readers get off, that's great. If they enjoy the story and don't get off, that's fine too. Writing a good story is my goal, not inspiring people to get off. I've done that in real life, don't need to do it here.

I have no issues with writers that take other approaches, but I have been told multiple times that I don't belong here. Next week, I'll have been here five years, and I'm not going anywhere any time soon.

You are only responsible for what you write, not what other people think of the site. There are many of them (I only look when one favorites me) who have read dozens, perhaps hundreds of submissions and have never written anything. It must be a sort of hobby for them, but that is their choice.

I had one guy on another site recently who specifically said he got off - he used much more graphic language than that - from one of my stories. What else could I do but take it as a compliment?

P.S.: Part of my response to him was, "Thank you. I'm impressed that it had such an impact on you."

 

[storyteller19]

There is no shortcut. If you want a certain outcome, lay the seeds well in advance, make sure your characters have compatible traits and don't rush it. If you feel the pivotal moment comes across as rushed, go back and read the lead up, flesh it out, edit the living bejesus out of that sucker. I've rewritten huge swathes of "Mud & Magic" when my beta readers told me a certain section felt rushed/undercooked. In nine out of ten cases, the rework indeed was better than the first draft.

Also, don't feel shackled to your initial approach. Sometimes an alternate angle - a POV change for example - can drastically shake up the end result for the better.

This is great advice. Also working in scene sequels, later on after a charged moment, maybe a lingering touch or look, have the characters process that moment. Show that things are building up for the characters, even when they are apart. The anticipation of what will happen next will make the next moment that much stronger and could lead to a sudden moment where that sexual tension overflows. This is a good way to get past a characters inhibitions.

 

[ElectricBlue]

As far as I can see, that's all that was being stated and there's no need to take any kind of personal offence at the reminder being given. It's not the first time that I've detected a reluctance in people to admit to themselves just what kind of site Lit. is. It's as if they're keen to get involved in the smut on the one hand, but on the other wish folk would consider them as being somehow above it and here for some more rarefied purpose.

What "doesn't bear thinking about!" is possibly brave - but decidedly self-appointed - forum Gestapo parading around, apparently, as avuncular proponents of censorship. If being reminded of facts results in some feeling that they are a "peg" or two lower than anticipated, too bad. A little humility - not humiliation - can be good for the soul, even for the Gestapo among us.

You say, "don't take personal offence" in one jibe, then progress to "forum Gestapo" in the next, and you wonder why you're getting a hostile reaction?

But then I did what I always do when we get a drive-through like this individual, and I go check the guy's body of work just to see if, you know, there's any indication of knowing what being a writer might be like...

... and nothing.

Gee, what a surprise.