The suspension of disbelief paradox in erotic fiction

[Auden James]

What do you mean by "preordained?" Everything in fiction is preordained in the sense that it has been predetermined (in the eye of the reader) by the writer who wrote the fiction. And if we're talking about erotica in general—and not only strokers—I wouldn't say that the "outcome" always has to be sexual intercourse, no I wouldn't say that at all! For there's indeed plenty of erotica that doesn't have sexual intercourse as its outcome, "preordained" or not.

Also I think there's nothing paradoxical about determining a story's conclusion and then figuring out a way to get there. There's simply no contradiction in this at all! An ending in itself must not necessarily imply the lead-up. Or would you say, for example, that Juliet plunging herself into Romeo's sword at the end of Romeo and Juliet did somehow imply everything that happened earlier in the play?

 

[XerXesXu]

. Or would you say, for example, that Juliet plunging herself into Romeo's sword at the end of Romeo and Juliet did somehow imply everything that happened earlier in the play?

Well, thanks for the spoiler. Another one I needn't bother reading.

 

[lovecraft68]

Thing is just like one person's kink is another's turn off, just as one person thinks a story is the best ever, but the next reader hates it, reality is also subjective and mileage varies. Each person has their own personal view of what they can roll with and what takes them out of a story or pisses them off.

The same person who loves my mother son stories and thinks a mom having sex with her son is hot and acceptable, is the same person who complains 'mothers wouldn't talk dirty"...they can screw their kid like a pornstar, but don't talk like one....okay.

But that's how it is, what you consider the reality/breaking point is what you go with, because you'll never get everyone on board.

 

[Winter_Fare]

I imagine some people could sit through the old porno where a sexy mechanic comes to "fix the fridge" until the credits start rolling, and then ask, "when's he going to fix her fridge?"!!!

 

[HeyAll]

Not sure if this helps, but as I've always said, one of my secrets to great erotica is to give the main character a goal.

The goal doesn't have to be sexual. I like goals that are non-sexual.

But that goal helps push the main character to doing new things.

 

[EarlyMorningLight]

I imagine some people could sit through the old porno where a sexy mechanic comes to "fix the fridge" until the credits start rolling, and then ask, "when's he going to fix her fridge?"!!!

This would actually be a great premise for a funny story. Completely oblivious person living in a city where everyone behaves in porno cliches, but the antagonist is too oblivious to see it as people are throwing themselves at him/her.

EDIT: protagonist. I shouldn’t write anything before coffee.

 

[gunhilltrain]

What do you mean by "preordained?" Everything in fiction is preordained in the sense that it has been predetermined (in the eye of the reader) by the writer who wrote the fiction. And if we're talking about erotica in general—and not only strokers—I wouldn't say that the "outcome" always has to be sexual intercourse, no I wouldn't say that at all! For there's indeed plenty of erotica that doesn't have sexual intercourse as its outcome, "preordained" or not.

Also I think there's nothing paradoxical about determining a story's conclusion and then figuring out a way to get there. There's simply no contradiction in this at all! An ending in itself must not necessarily imply the lead-up. Or would you say, for example, that Juliet plunging herself into Romeo's sword at the end of Romeo and Juliet did somehow imply everything that happened earlier in the play?

Probably most of what is on this site does have, if not intercourse, then some other sexual activity (BDSM?) as the goal. Even Romeo and Juliet consummated their relationship before everything went horribly wrong. There must be some tragedies on here that follow the same concept.

Is it possible to write a story in which the protagonist (probably a male?) yeans for someone and doesn't get her? There is often some kind of unhealthy obsession involved which may result in a tragedy. The most dramatic of these would be a story about a stalker in the vein of John Hinckley. It seems that Hinckley wasn't doing too well in his love life even before getting hung up on Jody Foster. Then there was that guy in California, Elliott Rodger, who had a gripe against all women. Unlike Hinckley, he offed himself at the end of his "big day."

The movie that inspired Hinckley, Taxi Driver - well, I don't know what Bickle was doing in the years before the movie starts, but his spurned interest in Betsy seems to be what set off his rampage, although there were other factors.

So even though these events have a sexual component, are they erotic? I guess it depends on how one defines it. I might put them over the line into a different category.

 

[Rustyoznail]

This would actually be a great premise for a funny story. Completely oblivious person living in a city where everyone behaves in porno cliches, but the antagonist is too oblivious to see it as people are throwing themselves at him/her.

There's a Japanese (naturally) porno series that's like this. Sex anytime, anywhere and no one says anything - except for one woman on a train who notices a guy molesting a younger woman. "Hey, if you're going to feel her up, do it properly!"

I've received comments on a couple of stories saying they are *just*on the right side of believable. I'll take that.

 

[Bramblethorn]

This would actually be a great premise for a funny story. Completely oblivious person living in a city where everyone behaves in porno cliches, but the antagonist is too oblivious to see it as people are throwing themselves at him/her.

Not porno land, but I had several chapters in one story where the protagonist completely fails to notice that she's been propositioned, based on RL incidents where I was similarly clueless.

That feeling when you look back ten or twenty years and think "...oh, that was a DATE! Whoops."

 

[Auden James]

OP wasn't talking about "some" sexual activity, that's pretty much a given in erotica, but plainly stated that sex was a forgone conclusion; that's a meaningful difference, at least to my mind.

Though, admittedly, I might not have appreciated enough the fact that he was talking about "writing smut," by which he might very well mean a very specific kind of erotica that just so happens to always have sexual intercourse as its final plot point.

Still, I firmly stand by my assertion that sex is no forgone conclusion in erotica per se. See the masturbation category on this site, for example, just to point out the obvious!

 

[KeithD]

Still, I firmly stand by my assertion that sex is no forgone conclusion in erotica per se. See the masturbation category on this site for an obvious example!

So, for some strange reason, you don't think that masturbation is a sex act?

 

[gunhilltrain]

Well, thanks for the spoiler. Another one I needn't bother reading.

Plus, Shakespeare wrote quite a bummer there, didn't he>

A story about female thwarted desires might be The Haunting. The novel is not overt, but there is a scene where Eleanor definitely makes a move on Luke, although, through their mutual ineptitude, the plan falls apart in a few minutes.

There is also something going on between Eleanor and Theodora, although they mostly talk around it. At one point Eleanor wants to ask her, do you love me? but she can't bring herself to do it.

In the awful 1999 movie version, Theodora openly brags about being bi-sexual, but then there is never a follow-up.

Anyway, I might call the novel anti-erotic, if there is such a thing.

 

[gunhilltrain]

OP wasn't talking about "some" sexual activity, that's pretty much a given in erotica, but plainly stated that sex was a forgone conclusion; that's a meaningful difference, at least to my mind.

Though, admittedly, I might not have appreciated enough the fact that he was talking about "writing smut," by which he might very well mean a very specific kind of erotica that just so happens to always have sexual intercourse as its final plot point.

Still, I firmly stand by my assertion that sex is no forgone conclusion in erotica per se. See the masturbation category on this site for an obvious example!

I haven't read very deeply into that category, but masturbation by definition is about the acts of one person, although he or she may be thinking about, or even knows, someone else. Mutual masturbation is almost an oxymoron, but everyone uses it and knows what it means.

So it's not sex if you define that as two people (or more) being together. But I think Woody Allen said something like, "Masturbation is sex with the person I love the most."

 

[Blind_Justice]

But that's how it is, what you consider the reality/breaking point is what you go with, because you'll never get everyone on board.

Nothing gets me out of a story quicker than sloppy world-building. Imagine a novel I was supposed to review some time ago, heavily featuring futanari (dickgirls). At first, the author stated these beings were super-rare and secretive before throwing that idea out of the window within the next few pages, because the protagonist loves to frequent a strip club where said rare and mysterious beings hang out and work. Not one, but a handful. If they are so rare and mysterious, don't they have better things to do than dance at a low-rent strip joint? Don't know, the plot has to happen.

Next, we get introduced to a vampire futa who was the plaything of other, super-rich vampires and turned into a vampire a few measly years ago, during which time she was basically a slave. But now that she fell into the protag's lap, she's super-wealthy and has all the connections to the people who are able to make new futanari. Also, the protagonist runs around with swords on her back and no one bats an eye. It's not an alternate time where such armament is normal, it's supposed to be a facsimile of "our" world. And last time I checked, the cops get really inquisitive when someone carries a katana or two on their person. Heck, people get shot for reaching for their cell phones these days.

And it goes on and on like that in said book. Traffic laws? Nah, when the protag gets invited to get her own futa operation, the limo driver behaves as if there are no cars around. In New York. During daytime. Every futa in the futa clinic has their dong out because hygiene in a hospital is an alien concept. Did I mention that they were supposed to be rare and mysterious? I stopped reading around the time the protag got her own dong, but by that time, there had been more futa characters on screen than normal humans and I really questioned my sanity.

Maybe I'm too obsessed with useless little details, but when you can't even keep the basic premise of your story alive for more than ten pages, you might think about a career change. He's still churning out his stuff. And no, I'm NOT jealous of him. My stories at least have internal logic, even if they're a few dozen cocks short of a full futanari banquet.

 

[lovecraft68]

Nothing gets me out of a story quicker than sloppy world-building. Imagine a novel I was supposed to review some time ago, heavily featuring futanari (dickgirls). At first, the author stated these beings were super-rare and secretive before throwing that idea out of the window within the next few pages, because the protagonist loves to frequent a strip club where said rare and mysterious beings hang out and work. Not one, but a handful. If they are so rare and mysterious, don't they have better things to do than dance at a low-rent strip joint? Don't know, the plot has to happen.

Next, we get introduced to a vampire futa who was the plaything of other, super-rich vampires and turned into a vampire a few measly years ago, during which time she was basically a slave. But now that she fell into the protag's lap, she's super-wealthy and has all the connections to the people who are able to make new futanari. Also, the protagonist runs around with swords on her back and no one bats an eye. It's not an alternate time where such armament is normal, it's supposed to be a facsimile of "our" world. And last time I checked, the cops get really inquisitive when someone carries a katana or two on their person. Heck, people get shot for reaching for their cell phones these days.

And it goes on and on like that in said book. Traffic laws? Nah, when the protag gets invited to get her own futa operation, the limo driver behaves as if there are no cars around. In New York. During daytime. Every futa in the futa clinic has their dong out because hygiene in a hospital is an alien concept. Did I mention that they were supposed to be rare and mysterious? I stopped reading around the time the protag got her own dong, but by that time, there had been more futa characters on screen than normal humans and I really questioned my sanity.

Maybe I'm too obsessed with useless little details, but when you can't even keep the basic premise of your story alive for more than ten pages, you might think about a career change. He's still churning out his stuff. And no, I'm NOT jealous of him. My stories at least have internal logic, even if they're a few dozen cocks short of a full futanari banquet.

This is why I really stress the KISS principle in my stories and not go crazy with detailed histories, rules etc because you put yourself in a box and at some point you slip out of it. That's not to say you can just keep making things up as Macguffins but you need to give yourself room to maneuver.

Of course I'm not a sci fi or fantasy writer so I don't world build, but I did create a coven who's members are human for the most part, but are part of a certain bloodline which gives them powers and certain genetic traits (they're supernatural, but if you wanted to apply comic book terms they could be defined as mutants) many of them live in a community buried in the deep south where they mostly interact with themselves, occasionally traveling outside of it, others left and function in regular society, but being they have a unique appearance (all albino's with black eyes) and do have abilities I have to be careful with them being careful in the days of cellphone cameras and the internet with what they do and how they act.

Your comment about traffic reminds me of the show 24 with Keifer Sutherland. Great show, he was awesome in it, and as the title goes, each season was 24 episodes with the whole thing happening in real time. The biggest stretch of reality is he could get anywhere in a major city seemingly in minutes.

 

[KeithD]

So it's not sex if you define that as two people (or more) being together. But I think Woody Allen said something like, "Masturbation is sex with the person I love the most."

Springs to mind the indignant rejectees who come here to complain that their story was rejected for underage. With the story of one "high school student" watching another one maturbate. Two sex acts: masturbation and voyeur, and the need that it be high school students is intentionally playing the underage card.

And, no, I don't personally care whether those stories get posted here or not. Not my site, not my rules, and I wouldn't be reading the stories.

 

[Auden James]

So it's not sex if you define that as two people (or more) being together. But I think Woody Allen said something like, "Masturbation is sex with the person I love the most."

If masturbation (by oneself) is still too hardcore in your eyes or you genuinely believe that masturbation qualifies as intercourse (isn't that already a contradiction in terms?), there'd still be stories of exhibitionism, to stay on this site, where—at least in principle—there's no intimate touching needed at all, only—more or less—public nudity. Now don't tell me that you consider this some kind of "eye sex" or whatever!

 

[lovecraft68]

If masturbation (by oneself) is still too hardcore in your eyes or you genuinely believe that masturbation qualifies as intercourse (isn't that already a contradiction in terms?), there'd still be stories of exhibitionism, to stay on this site, where—at least in principle—there's no intimate touching needed at all, only—more or less—public nudity. Now don't tell me that you consider this some kind of "eye sex" or whatever!

Masturbation is a sexual act, sexual acts are at the core of an erotic story. A story which features masturbation as the only sex but during which what the person masturbating is looking at or thinking about in a sense a sexual act if they're thinking of committing said act to fuel getting themselves off.

Example of a guy is masturbating to a teacher he has a thing for and as he's jacking off envisions what that teacher would be doing to him, you just wrote a sex scene within the masturbation scene. Sex in the mind's eye, as read by the reader is still sex.

I don't know if you try to be clever or contrarian, what I do know is you only succeed at the latter.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Springs to mind the indignant rejectees who come here to complain that their story was rejected for underage. With the story of one "high school student" watching another one maturbate. Two sex acts: masturbation and voyeur, and the need that it be high school students is intentionally playing the underage card.

And, no, I don't personally care whether those stories get posted here or not. Not my site, not my rules, and I wouldn't be reading the stories.

I have exactly that plot on anothe site where the age of consent is sixteen. I love Literotica but I love those guys too. So I have the girl at sixteen going on seventeen, and the guy is seventeen. And yes, they do make a reference to the two "kids" (the actors were actually in their twenties) in The Sound of Music. I figure if Rodges and Hammerstein can do it, then so can I.

 

[Auden James]

sexual acts are at the core of an erotic story.

Not necessarily, I don't think so. Of course, this turns on what you mean by "sexual acts," and depending on your understanding of the "erotic" (a/o "sexual") there doesn't even necessarily need to happen anything sexual in an erotic story.

I don't know if you try to be clever or contrarian, what I do know is you only succeed at the latter.

I don't know what you try to achieve here, but it doesn't strike me as being successful at either.

 

[EarlyMorningLight]

Well this thread went off the rails.

 

[gunhilltrain]

If masturbation (by oneself) is still too hardcore in your eyes or you genuinely believe that masturbation qualifies as intercourse (isn't that already a contradiction in terms?), there'd still be stories of exhibitionism, to stay on this site, where—at least in principle—there's no intimate touching needed at all, only—more or less—public nudity. Now don't tell me that you consider this some kind of "eye sex" or whatever!

I never said those things (that masturbation is too hard-core for me or that it qualifies as intercourse). I have a story coming up where a woman walks along public streets (as an experiment) wearing a skirt and no underpants. She gets very turned on by it. I'm putting it in Exhibitionism and Voyeur, even though all that is entirely in her fantasies. She doesn't have the nerve to actually do it. And yeah, I'd say that certainly qualifies as sex.

Well, there is some intimate touching involved - when she gets home and touches herself.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Well this thread went off the rails.

You mean like this?

https://stuffnobodycaresabout.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/NYC-El-Crashes-6-25-1923-alt-view.jpg

 

[Auden James]

I have a story coming up where a woman walks along public streets (as an experiment) wearing a skirt and no underpants. She gets very turned on by it. . . . And yeah, I'd say that certainly qualifies as sex.

If that qualifies as sex, what then—to your mind—doesn't qualify as sex? I think it's unnecessary and impractical to broaden the meaning of "sex" to such an extent that fucking someone in the ass and walking around in a skirt without panties on become interchangeable.

 

[Bramblethorn]

OP wasn't talking about "some" sexual activity, that's pretty much a given in erotica, but plainly stated that sex was a forgone conclusion; that's a meaningful difference, at least to my mind.

Though, admittedly, I might not have appreciated enough the fact that he was talking about "writing smut," by which he might very well mean a very specific kind of erotica that just so happens to always have sexual intercourse as its final plot point.

Still, I firmly stand by my assertion that sex is no forgone conclusion in erotica per se. See the masturbation category on this site, for example, just to point out the obvious!

"Sex" and "sexual intercourse" are not interchangeable terms. HTH.